How will Panasonic, JVC, Sony, Thomson, Etc.. Respond?

Market for RED

Market for RED

im.thatoneguy is right with regards to the market of this cam. $6k for an HVX and $10k for an H1 are huge differences from $20k for RED. RED will probably nibble at those markets since some HVX/H1 owners can easily afford $20k. However, RED will do more damage to the Varicam/Cinealta/HDX900 market.

I for one will hold off on buying an HVX200 til the end of the year. Then I'll decide if I want to get the RED or HVX200a.
 
i know everybody is asking for 35mm DoF.. and i have to say be careful what you ask for as you just might get what you ask for !!!!

IMO many who ask for it and have never shot 35mm are going to be in for a big surprise .. right now if they are shooting hand size camera's that have deep focus - they have auto focus , optical stabilization = you can pretty much shoot hand held moving shots without any problems , med shots no problem , extreme c/u you can let auto focus take over - on most wide shots you don't have to check focus ... now give them a 35mm sensor with 35mm lens , without auto focus, without stabililzation and now if you hand hold a moving shot you may have to have to pull focus and it is much more difficult to get a smooth hand held using a 25mm vs 5mm lens , most likely you'll going to have to pull some focus on medium shots and have to follow focus on c/u shots ... of course most will adapt/learn to work with it ..
i do have to admit 1/4, 1/3 CCD's with optical stabilization , auto focus (that you can turn on/off) , auto iris ( that you can over ride) do make shooting very easy ....
 
Good points! There will also a ton of RED users who have broad backgrounds in using 2/3" B4 mount ENG cameras. They will be used to shooting hand held and on sticks without autofocus, without image stabilization (usually), with much deeper depth of field than 1/3" cameras, and having to do their own racking of focus progressively throughout shooting sequences. The deeper DOF of 35mm will be a learning curve for them, but not nearly as long a curve as someone who has only shot 1/3" cameras in automatic modes. I've shot a tons of 2/3" B4 full-sized cameras down to 1/3" cameras. I enjoy shooting both ways, depending on what the project calls for. Later in my career I've been learning full cine-style shooting, and it's very professionally rewarding to learn and expand my skill sets. The more you learn, the more you should realize you don't know. If I live to be 95, I hope I'm still healthy, mobile, still shooting, and still learning new technology and techniques!

Gibby
www.cut4.tv
 
And if you find yourself over your head... switch to S16mm lenses and shoot 2k (at 120fps). If you can't master that, you probably don't want this camera...

Jim
 
Speaking of which, how well do you think footage will intercut? If one scene is shot using S16 lens in a 2k window mode for the increased DOF and another is shot in full s35 2K mode for shalow DOF? Would that be a wise move?
 
roxics said:
Speaking of which, how well do you think footage will intercut? If one scene is shot using S16 lens in a 2k window mode for the increased DOF and another is shot in full s35 2K mode for shalow DOF? Would that be a wise move?
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There are a few things to that answer.. Of course the downsampled image technically will differ from your windowed image but wont be as noticable as the visable differences in the lenses.. 16mm lenses are usually noticably sharper than 35mm lenses... and you probally are going to use different brands which reveal different "feel" of glass. But if your using a 35mm on a 2k window your using the middle of the 35mm, which is the sharpest part of the lens. All of this of course can be melded together in post though without issue.
 
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Barry_Green said:
Sony will respond by creating some overpriced proprietary system that doesn't work with anyone else's equipment and requires proprietary media and proprietary hardware. And it will be based on interlaced chips. (Just a wild hunch, but given their recent behavior this would seem to be completely in line with everything else they've done).
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lol.
And there was much rejoicing. :furious3:
 
intercutting 35mm with S16 lens shooting in the S16 mode should cut very good ... today persons are using both with S16 camera's .. i tend to use the 9.5, 12, 16 & 25mm 16 lens and then use 35mm lens for longer lens ...
i've used canon/nikon still lens 28m- 400mm on 16 camera's .. a favorite is the nikon 200mm T2 ...
on the zoom side IMO you'll find a 10-100 T2 16mm ziess a little sharper then the cooke/anj 25-250 in the 25-100 range on 16mm film ...

what isn't known would be shooting extreme scenic wide shots in 35m 2k mode and shooting most other shots in the 16mm 2k mode - seems to me that the 35mm mode might be better on those wide shots ????? when i get RED 103 i'll be testing that theory ...
 
Like a lot of you I do this stuff for a living. I'm sitting here giggleing about everyone talking like Red's price point is "going to change the face of film making"... I think one person even said that if the camera were cheap enough we could then all focus on scripts, etc.

I just wanted to remind everyone, this revolution has already happened many times over. Just as an example, the HVX200 is more than capable of putting out a major feature film and it's less than half the price of Red. What's stopping everyone? Where are all the movies? They are out there, not a bunch of them, but they are there. Bottom line, if you are serious about making good technically proficient movies, then the camera will be one purchase amoung many that you make. I spent $25,000 on my Panasonic AJ-SDX900 and an additional $100,000 on everything else I needed to make it could do what I needed it to do. Audio, Matteboxes, good tripod, etc. etc.

I think most people on this forum are the guys that get up and make stuff. They do not wait around for everything to be perfect, but for those of you who may be new and are reading these posts... Don't kid yourselves into thinking that if you can just afford the camera "Hollywood Awaits". In the world of feature films, there's a long way to go from Red to a good movie.

I would also like to point out to those that do not know, a 2K (half of what Red is) chip with a good lens will NOT look like film. It will look like video on steroids. Super sharp and ugly.. It will take the right filters (Bad idea) or some good post work (good idea) to get that certain type of "film look" you are after. And it will be different for each medium you release it too: I.E. Film-Out, DVD, video projection, etc. That will take some major time if you are a DIY guy or serious money to pay someone else to do it.

Why am I excited about Red? It's simple, I can screw up more and Red's latitude and resolution will save me from my mistakes and still allow me to make something beautiful. I can use less lights, play more in the shadows, pull better mattes, and finally, know that there are no longer any walls standing between me and the look I see in movie theatres.

Way cool.

Jay
 
Even the VariCams and the CineAlta's have huge limitations in what level of work you can play at, the red will really blow down the doors, if you own it, your not going to be limited to any type of work, if your good, you can shoot anything with it. That is what I love about the red camera, I own a Canon 1ds it's 12megapixels and full 35mm sensor, I can never ever say, well my pictures are sucky because of compression, or limited lens choices, or deep DOF or low dynamic range etc etc


If you suck with a Red camera, YOU suck, not your gear. Limits are gone.


just my 2cents
 
Very harsh but true, Obin. It's only about the camera to an extent, but when it comes down to it, it's about the talent of the person using the camera. Heck, look at me for instance! I'm no ASC-like genius with my GL1 like some of you guys around here, but I'm the kind of guy that can do wonders with power tools but can only do so much with regular tools, yet some are awarded for their work with the latter.

However, there are some guys that just can't do either one at all.
 
The major manufactures appear to be of the opinion that acquiring on distribution formats such as MPEG (HDV) and H.264 (AVCHD) is the way to go. I suspect we are only months away from announcements proclaiming the revolution of low bandwidth SECAM acquisition or, if we're lucky, WMV. Perhaps Flash. The future is bright. Or is it the past?
 
JVC has always had an experimental 8 megapixel video camera so competition from Red could force it into production. I suspect that JVC will rather concentrate more on affordable high definition and I think it would be more economical for them to try to hot rod the JVC GY-HD100 rather than start from scratch. With pixel shifting technology and a high end encoder it may be possible to double the resolution and get 1080p60 from the camera. However there is a limit of how much resolution you can get from a one third inch chip before losing light sensitivity. In order to compete with Red's modular concept JVC and for that matter Sony and Panasonic may have to offer future upgrades for a price rather than making people buy a new camera every time the old camera becomes obsolete.

Olympus has an 8 megapixel video camera but it is only available in Japan. If Red opens up the market for ultra high definition it may become available in the States.

NHK broadcasting of Japan is developing a 8k video camera. If Red becomes sucessfull there may be pressure to put the research and development in the fast track mode in order to one up Red especially for high end work.. However present configurations require the recording of 16 HD-SDI streams which may be a nightmare to record edit and project. However if 4k becomes more monolithic then 8k will be the quad system and become much more managable.
 
The Genesis outputs only an 1080p image. If you compare it to the Red 1080p mode, both are very sharp probably, because of the downconversion from a high pixel count imaging device in both cases.

The Genesis uses a heavy and noisy 440MBit/s DCT based tape recorder which is practically visually lossless. The Red team too claims visually lossless wavelet compression for the small onboard Red Drive.

For lattitude and noise comparisons you have to wait for the Red to be released.
 
thebman18 said:
What's the cost for the Genesis? Or rental fee if applicable?
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)


Seriously, I don't know, but I'm guessing it's in the $150,000 range. Anyone?
 
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