ZazaJib - It's a slider, it's a jib...It's both at the same time!

ztemyn said:
I'm new to this forum I admit, but it seems to me we're comparing apples and oranges here. As an independent (read broke) film maker, I can't afford Chapman dollies... not even if I rent them. It may be easier to use the best equipment money can buy to get things done, but I thought this was a DIY forum??? It seems to me Zaza's solution might be a good idea for someone who works by themselves and doesn't have a crew, or an unlimited budget. I would think that people like me who are already using sliders instead of full dolly systems might be able to do some creative things with a jib. Let's not forget a jib isn't a crane. It's meant for much tighter quarters. That's why they exist in the first place. I'm happy for the people out there that have the opportunity to work with Chapman Dollies and 15ft and 18ft cranes, but I don't have that kind of money. I'd be very interested in something like this, and I won't insult Zaza with a ridiculous number like $50... the rail alone is worth 3 times that. I would like to know what something like this might cost. I've seen Jr. Jibs for as much as $1000 and you can't slide with them.
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Absolutely correct. This is a DIY area where people share less expensive or unconventional ways of doing things that end up being cheaper for a lot of people. Like you said, everyone would like to have the best equipment available, but, cost is prohibitive. I mean, they cost that much because they are so well engineered and built so well, no doubt, but it doesn't mean creative tools for those without that sort of bank aren't a good thing.

I actually built a Zaza slider instead of buying one. It works great. I've used more expensive sliders, the latest one was the Pocket Dolly from Kessler. Sure, I think it works better and has things my slider I built didn't have, but, I still use my Zaza slider, because it's good enough for when I need a slider. I've used it on just about every project we've done for at least a few takes.

There are people who don't work from the bottom up, so I don't think they'll understand the viewpoint of where DIY comes into play. I enjoy doing DIY projects because I like trying to innovate new ideas.

Not that this is a new idea, but we wrote an article called 'The Amazing Camera-on-a-Stick' (http://www.beatdownboogie.com/2011/01/18/the-amazing-camera-on-a-stick/) that shows people how to use a monopod with their DSLR to get some amazing shots. There are example shots of us using this setup in EVERY way we've used it in our productions. Is it perfect? No. Are their better tools for each thing we did? Yes. But, we got the shot, it cost us little, and they looked great.

And that's what I see with this setup.

I'd like Zaza to do some shots with the setup and show what kinds of shots are possible with it to demonstrate why it's a fun new tool to have. Sure, there are other ways to get these shots, but in many cases, probably not for as little money as it will cost. And, like you point out, that's kinda the point of the DIY section.
 
Nobody ever suggested that indies use a big dolly with booming arm. What was suggested was that a counterbalanced vertical slider is the indie low budget equivalent to said dolly's arms, and a much cheaper/easier/faster/smaller solution for most booming shots than any jib.

I maintain that, just like the big shows don't bring out a crane unless they need height above what the dolly can do, an indie shouldn't bother with a jib unless the height requirements of a boom shot are above where a vertical slider can reach.

Was I really that unclear?

Because it's DIY doesn't mean that you can't use the experience and techniques of the industry that has already been doing this for 100 years, and scale it down to your budget level. Learning from those who came before you will save many headaches and give you a better result in the process.

But again, new toys are cool, no matter whether they are overkill for your desired end result or not.

So back to the budgetary concerns: wouldn't it be a better value to make a jib with any other cheaper piece of metal as the arm, and then end up with a separate jib and slider that require no reconfiguring time between shots? Wouldn't the space/transport requirement differences amount to just one piece of aluminum? When you are talking about such a big piece of gear as a jib, I'd rather have setup speed/ease over saving the space of one piece, but that's just me. Really, the biggest bonus of separating the units would be freeing up the jib size wise, and it could be longer and more useful.

I'm not trying to threaddump here, I just have concerns about this approach. If you'd rather have dissenting opinions/devil's advocate stay out of the thread, just say so - but I doubt you'd want to have a one sided discussion/cheering section. After all, that's what internet discussions are all about to me - other opinions. In this case, mine happens to be another opinion backed by much experience in the subject matter.
 
I think it all depends, I've seen designs with cheaper pieces of metal for the arm, and I've also seen them flex, bend, and wobble due to the nature of their size/weight/structure. With the Igus slider rail, it's actually EXTREMELY sturdy on it's own. I think that's part of the point in using it.

I too often try to get a balance between speed of setting something up AND the weight of bringing multiple setups along. But then I see something like this:

http://www.kesslercrane.com/product-p/100150.htm

Which I could ride on my kessler crane if I wanted to get a REALLY LONG slider (in comparison to the Zazaslider), but then I thought, well, if I use this slider, I have to setup the crane, use two people to move it around, etc, whereas with the Zaza, it's light, easy to carry, and one person. So there are pluses and minuses to many setups as you no doubt know as well.

So in essence, you make a lot of valid points, but, a lot of the DIY setups are because, well, it's a solution that was obtainable and this is a solution where if someone already has the Igus slider, they can probably get to this structure cheaper then buying something brand new.

For instance, I like using the Igus slider when it's level, however, moving to a more vertical position, I don't like how the sliders work as much (dry bearing). So, going vertical, we've got that to content with as well if people don't like the performance of those bearings.

I think what answers more than anything is what the video shows you can do with it. This to me is the biggest answer to how useful this setup is. Just from what I have seen you could use it as a jib or a slider very easily with the addition of a tripod to lock down the front when sliding. Of course, now you have to content with the weights in making it tough to move, but even if you just pulled them off, I see it as no more complex than the slider on it's own once they are off.

To me, stability due to poor tolerances is where most DIY become difficult to work with. As a comparison I tell people, use a fluid head and a non-fluid head, this is where cost difference usually makes.
 
nothing said:
I'm not trying to threaddump here, I just have concerns about this approach. If you'd rather have dissenting opinions/devil's advocate stay out of the thread, just say so - but I doubt you'd want to have a one sided discussion/cheering section. After all, that's what internet discussions are all about to me - other opinions. In this case, mine happens to be another opinion backed by much experience in the subject matter.
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I appreciate ALL comments...everything's a help here... so, thanks. (FYI... there's no lack of devil's advocate opinions here...ever :happy:)

Maybe you're missing the point. You do know the average ZazaSlider is only 1000mm long, the feet stay attached and all together it weighs about 8lbs. To convert it to a jib you are only adding 3 small parts and about another 2 lbs. This takes about 3-5 minutes to set-up with one person and can mount on pretty much any tripod....just about the same amount of time to set-up the slider on it's own. So in the same amount of set-up time, you can accomplish both jib shots and slider shots!

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the point that a vertical sliding shot is the same as a jib. With a vertical slide, the camera lens remains on a single plane vertically. On a jib/crane, the lens moves in an arch as it moves vertically...plus you can move the camera horizontally at the same time. This gives you the option of sweeping, raising or falling shots. These are very different movements and can easily be seen.

This whole project came about because I too have a Kessler 8' crane & Kpod tripod (it is an awesome piece of hardware!)....there are a bunch of pieces.....two big bags and it weighs a ton. It takes me (I shoot alone most of the time) about 20-40 minutes to set it up. I also shoot in locations that are tight most of the time, so I can't always use it...and because it's a lot to carry & set-up, I find myself just avoiding the cool shots to make things easier.

I'm trying to get some quick shots together to post (go easy, I don't have anything interesting to shoot & it's all crappy and ugly outside...and cold!). Once posted, I'm sure you'll see the difference too.

Again... thanks for all the input.
 
I really like the portability of Zaza's jib/slider for my application. As mentioned previously most one arm jibs (I have the 4' glideshot) are notorious for wobble during movement. I have to take special care with mine and not zoom in too close or the wobble is appearent. I even use a remote to activate/stop the camera to lessen unwanted movement. I also have a Igus slider and the appeal in this application is I don't think there will be any wobble due to the rigidity of the material. Am eagerly awaiting the test video.
 
Mark Williams said:
I really like the portability of Zaza's jib/slider for my application. As mentioned previously most one arm jibs (I have the 4' glideshot) are notorious for wobble during movement. I have to take special care with mine and not zoom in too close or the wobble is appearent. I even use a remote to activate/stop the camera to lessen unwanted movement. I also have a Igus slider and the appeal in this application is I don't think there will be any wobble due to the rigidity of the material. Am eagerly awaiting the test video.
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That was the plan along.... the strength of the rail is key. There is no flex at all, even on the 4' piece of rail.
(note: any shake you see in the video is too much coffee! :shocked:)
 
I built a ZaZa slider and I use it all the time. It works great. I'm very interested in this solution and so will follow along closely. I'm not convinced that the vertical slider is better but if the wish is to mimic those chapman dolly shots where the boom rises and falls I understand that opinion. I have a longvalley dolly and along with pans and tilts have gotten some really good shots but to just have that arm boom a little would be so valuable. If the idea is to provide a jib for "crane" type shots on a locked down tripod that's a good goal too but if I understand the discussion those goals are disparate. So is this jib made to be locked down or ridden on a dolly or both?

In any case, it's very ingenious! Nice going.
 
hscully said:
I built a ZaZa slider and I use it all the time. It works great. I'm very interested in this solution and so will follow along closely. I'm not convinced that the vertical slider is better but I can understand that if the wish is to mimic those chapman dolly shots where the boom rises and falls I understand that opinion. I have a longvalley dolly and along with pans and tilts have gotten some really good shots but to just have that arm boom a little would be so valuable. If the idea is to provide a jib for "crane" type shots on a locked down dolly that's a good goal too but if I understand the discussion those goals are disparate. So is this jib made to be locked down or ridden on a dolly or both?
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... guess if you have dolly wheels on your tripod it would be both!
 
Nice work! Really well done! Makes me wanna make something similar in my next days off! :thumbup:
 
Video looks good and really is a good example of I think what to expect. I had to laugh, I love rotating my camera 90 degrees and do the flyby in a circle effect :) On my Kessler, I also rotate the angle while moving to get some great angle transitions. :)

There is also the camera pointing at the ground shot moving up that you didn't do :)
 
Comments based on newly added video: Meandering around the room type of shots are done with a Steadicam rig in my world, which gives you more freedom of camera placement as it is not constrained to one circle of movement. A jib is severely limited in such situations.

My comments are based on boom movements, the traditional use of jibs. I've never used a jib where a Steadicam type rig could do the shot. To each their own.
 
nothing said:
Comments based on newly added video: Meandering around the room type of shots are done with a Steadicam rig in my world, which gives you more freedom of camera placement as it is not constrained to one circle of movement. A jib is severely limited in such situations.

My comments are based on boom movements, the traditional use of jibs. I've never used a jib where a Steadicam type rig could do the shot. To each their own.
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I've seen steadicam setups be in either high or low mode, but I've not seem them move between both, which I think is the point the video is trying to show. You can go from up above or down below across something with a sweep to a final position. But even with my Blackbird stabilizer it's simply not practical to try and go from a high position to a low position if I want, for a variety of reasons. Add to that a vest system and again, you are going to be limited by the nature of the height of the stabilizer assembly and how the arm is going to work.

Yes, for moving around shots kept at one level, it only makes sense to me to use a stabilizer as well. But, that doesn't mean you couldn't do some neat shots if you wanted a more controlled arc that was easier to replicate. With a jib arm, and the inertia of the camera/weights, it gives you a system that is less prone to erratic movements. Not immune, but a lot easier than some setups.

And let's not forget, for any camera with weight, it's going to take a pretty expensive steadicam setup that's going to even function half way correctly. The cheap vests have horrible arms that just do not work well. I tried to float an AF100 on the blackbird and a Glidecam with no vest and it was too heavy.

Again, I think you are missing the point here. You keep mentioning expensive equipment that works well. I don't think anyone here would argue that the equipment you mention wouldn't work great, but, the whole essence of DIY is that people cannot afford that equipment in most cases. Therefore, they are looking for something to give them a bit more freedom to try other shots. When you look at it from that perspective, it opens up possibilities for a shooter not had before.

It's like this:

http://14dollarstabilizer.org/

Will it work as good as the Blackbird, or the Merlin, or any of the larger professional stabilizers? No. I've tried this style before. Is it better than nothing? Yes. And that's kind of the point.
 
nothing said:
Comments based on newly added video: Meandering around the room type of shots are done with a Steadicam rig in my world, which gives you more freedom of camera placement as it is not constrained to one circle of movement. A jib is severely limited in such situations.

My comments are based on boom movements, the traditional use of jibs. I've never used a jib where a Steadicam type rig could do the shot. To each their own.
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Wow... is someone taking sad pills? :happy: JK... I now understand that you're a professional in the business, but that's not who this is for... think of us broke indie filmmakers.
It's for people shooting with DSLRs up to AF100/FS100...and maybe the Scarlet (I don't know how heavy that camera is once rigged).

I know there's tons of expensive gear out there for specific types of shots. I have a Glidecam X-10 rig too and there is nothing quick about a steadicam shot. You can spend hours getting the balance correct, then there's months, if not years of practice to learn how to use it properly. I guess that's why there are people who specialize in it. You are missing the whole point of this DIY thread. I'm a single person who enjoys trying to make short films. I wanted to get some more movement in my shots and liked the idea of a slider, but they were all so expensive...with a few months of research and some trial & error, I found the linear motion company that quite a few slider manufacturers (glidetrack, T-Jib, Indieslider, etc.) were using and built the same thing for 1/3 of the price...thus the ZazaSlider. Hell, once I told Eric Kessler about it & he saw the DIY thread I posted here (550,000+ views now), he got into the slider business! Now there are at least a thousand others building & marketing sliders (but there's still only one ZazaSlider ;-)). It seems to have caught on....and I like to think we've all benefitted from this valuable tool both in the films we make & the films we watch.

Which brings me to my point, this is an inexpensive way to get shots that (as you stated) would normally need the following gear: Steadicam rig w/operator, Fisher or Chapman dolly (w/arm) & Vertical (counter-weighted) slider. It's designed to be portable and easy to set-up (by one person)...and most importantly, won't cost you a second mortgage and your first born child to purchase or build. It's for us truely indie shooters (translation...broke!).

Another thing that was important to me was that it was an add-on to the hardware I had already developed (ZazaSlider Feet, carriage plate, etc...). I hate it when something new comes out, you buy it and a few months later there's another, better version but you can't just upgrade...you have to scrap what you have and buy a hole new unit.

My stuff will work on ANY igus 16-60mm rail.... so, if you built your own, have a glidetrack HD, indieslider, old Kessler (he stopped using igus), T-jib or whatever... this stuff will allow you to upgrade. With this rig, your shot options are only limited by your imagination IMHO.
 
Zaza, I think you have clearly explained who your jib/slider is aimed at and shown what it's capabilities are. I see this as a highly mobile piece of gear. In my situation I shoot in remote areas. Whether or not I can carry my 4 foot jib and slider is a function of the distance I have to travel by foot and the weight of the equipment. Sometimes I have to make two trips or decide which piece of gear I am leaving in my vehicle. Being able to combine both pieces of gear into one, especially at a lower weight would give me more flexibility. Weight is so critical that I carry empty one gallon plastic jugs that I fill up with creek water for counter weight once I am on site. I would never be able to use or afford "high end" equipment that others here have commented on.
 
Zaza,

A few thoughts:
Your legs turn into handles, which look great, but you will need a way for the typical lanc controls to attach.
You might consider a shorter cam platform, it will have less moment.

Grant
 
Mark Williams said:
Zaza, I think you have clearly explained who your jib/slider is aimed at and shown what it's capabilities are. I see this as a highly mobile piece of gear. In my situation I shoot in remote areas. Whether or not I can carry my 4 foot jib and slider is a function of the distance I have to travel by foot and the weight of the equipment. Sometimes I have to make two trips or decide which piece of gear I am leaving in my vehicle. Being able to combine both pieces of gear into one, especially at a lower weight would give me more flexibility. Weight is so critical that I carry empty one gallon plastic jugs that I fill up with creek water for counter weight once I am on site. I would never be able to use or afford "high end" equipment that others here have commented on.
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I have the 3' rail on in the video....I'll have to try an even shorter piece (like the 700mm that I have) and see if it's worth it. That would make this that much more transportable in your case.


ggrantly said:
Zaza,

A few thoughts:
Your legs turn into handles, which look great, but you will need a way for the typical lanc controls to attach.
You might consider a shorter cam platform, it will have less moment.

Grant
Click to expand...

lanc control - their are all kind of attachment point on the centerbar and I'll have to see how my remote would attach to the handle, but this being a mini-jib, I'll probably control the movement from the camera end. That way I have a good view and access to all the camera controls. I'm also going to drill & tap a hole on the U-bracket to mount a Noga arm and monitor if operating from behind.

Platform - yes, this is a prototype and I could see shortening it a bit. I want to try a bunch of different camera rigs first. I was thinking that with my AF100 (and the longer platform) you could mount the camera back a bit more and allow for some lens support for the longer lenses. Plus, some people have their baseplate, rods, FF, etc. all set-up... that's my next tests!

Thanks again for the comments.
 
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