Do you have the part numbers?
Zaxcom patent infringement question
- Thread starter BrianMurphy
- Start date
Do you have the part numbers?
JAMedia
Well-known member
I don't but they were quoted (both of them) several times back up this thread.
Thanks.
I learned some new information, so I will be looking into getting the Deity Connect.
JAMedia
Well-known member
found it
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Don't expect miracles. Sometimes they work, but in several situations I was in last year, useless when UHF worked great. Smart to have 2.4Ghz, UHF AND standalone recorder like the
Tentacle Track E, Zoom F2 or Tascam DR-10L. You need diversity in your audio solutions because wireless is a huge mess in 2021.
BrianMurphy
Veteran
Ok, I still have not gotten the Zoom and due to Covid, it seems it will still be a while before I get it. As for the two patents, are you sure that they are not for the two different models? There is Ione with BT and one without. I will post soon as it is delivered.
I'm getting the BP-TRX when it is finally released.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Most of the pros over on JW Soundgroup are excited about that one. I think it's going to be a much bigger hit than the Connect because it
is capable of doing so many different functions in so many situations.
Run&Gun
Veteran
*Update*
So, initially, the splitter cables that I had built to simultaneously feed my Lectro Tx's and Tentacle Track E's did not work as intended. The level dropped way too low and the signal got very noisy. So I reached out to Remote Audio/Trew Audio and sent them back. Coincidentally enough, I was going to be in Nashville for a shoot, right after sending them back, which was a good thing, because they didn't have any Track E's in-stock anymore to test with. So after arriving in town, I stopped by and dropped off one of my Track E's and hung out for a while while they started trying different things to try to make them work. While hanging out Glen Trew comes walking through the showroom and we start chatting and after telling him what was going on he goes back and starts helping them figure out a way to make it work. Eventually Glen and the guys figured it out. The level does still drop a little(you are passively splitting a very low voltage signal over two devices), but it's a clean signal that only needs a little bit of extra gain to compensate, at least in my initial testing. And it probably says something that Glen Trew was satisfied with the results.
So, I also want to give Glen and everyone else at Trew/Remote Audio in Nashville a public shout-out and Thank You. Even though I've been a customer since probably the early 00's, I've never been there or met any of them in-person, but they were all very friendly and treated me like I was a "regular".
So, initially, the splitter cables that I had built to simultaneously feed my Lectro Tx's and Tentacle Track E's did not work as intended. The level dropped way too low and the signal got very noisy. So I reached out to Remote Audio/Trew Audio and sent them back. Coincidentally enough, I was going to be in Nashville for a shoot, right after sending them back, which was a good thing, because they didn't have any Track E's in-stock anymore to test with. So after arriving in town, I stopped by and dropped off one of my Track E's and hung out for a while while they started trying different things to try to make them work. While hanging out Glen Trew comes walking through the showroom and we start chatting and after telling him what was going on he goes back and starts helping them figure out a way to make it work. Eventually Glen and the guys figured it out. The level does still drop a little(you are passively splitting a very low voltage signal over two devices), but it's a clean signal that only needs a little bit of extra gain to compensate, at least in my initial testing. And it probably says something that Glen Trew was satisfied with the results.
So, I also want to give Glen and everyone else at Trew/Remote Audio in Nashville a public shout-out and Thank You. Even though I've been a customer since probably the early 00's, I've never been there or met any of them in-person, but they were all very friendly and treated me like I was a "regular".
Copying a post I placed in another forum that is discussing the Zaxcom patent:
The patent has had quite a history going back to 2010. Just last year, Lectrosonics filed a challenge on the obviousness of the invention, or as the lawyers like to call it "objective indicia of nonobviousness". The interesting thing is that the patent court found in favor of Lectrosonics in that the original claims were invalid as described in the National Law Review:
"With respect to the original claims, the PTAB [patent court] deemed them invalid and determined that Zaxcom’s objective indicia evidence was insufficient.".
But Zaxcom brought forth new claims that the court found to be valid and so the patent was saved Zaxcom's favor as stated in the law review:
"The PTAB, however, reached the opposite conclusion regarding the amended claims, holding that they are valid in light of Zaxcom’s evidence of objective indicia of nonobviousness. The key to Zaxcom’s success was its ability to connect the amended claim language to the objective indicia of nonobviousness. Specifically, the PTAB determined that Zaxcom sufficiently linked its evidence of objective indicia of nonobviousness—i.e., expert testimony and awards—to the amended claim limitation directed to eliminating audio dropouts—i.e., the replacing of corrupted audio data that was remotely received with locally recorded data.
The patent has had quite a history going back to 2010. Just last year, Lectrosonics filed a challenge on the obviousness of the invention, or as the lawyers like to call it "objective indicia of nonobviousness". The interesting thing is that the patent court found in favor of Lectrosonics in that the original claims were invalid as described in the National Law Review:
"With respect to the original claims, the PTAB [patent court] deemed them invalid and determined that Zaxcom’s objective indicia evidence was insufficient.".
But Zaxcom brought forth new claims that the court found to be valid and so the patent was saved Zaxcom's favor as stated in the law review:
"The PTAB, however, reached the opposite conclusion regarding the amended claims, holding that they are valid in light of Zaxcom’s evidence of objective indicia of nonobviousness. The key to Zaxcom’s success was its ability to connect the amended claim language to the objective indicia of nonobviousness. Specifically, the PTAB determined that Zaxcom sufficiently linked its evidence of objective indicia of nonobviousness—i.e., expert testimony and awards—to the amended claim limitation directed to eliminating audio dropouts—i.e., the replacing of corrupted audio data that was remotely received with locally recorded data.
JAMedia
Well-known member
I see that Rode is launching a new wireless mic set that also has on board recording https://youtu.be/WTGXj3RaaKE?si=NSBmS2OtvNngABct
Either RODE thinks the Zaxcom patent won't stand up or they will sell it globally except in the USA?
I guess the Asian, African and European markets are huge.
Either RODE thinks the Zaxcom patent won't stand up or they will sell it globally except in the USA?
I guess the Asian, African and European markets are huge.
cyvideo
Veteran
puredrifting
Major Contributor
The Zaxcom Patent holds, the new Deity Theos will be crippled in the US firmware version, we will not be allowed to monitor and record simultaneously while the rest of the globe can. Makes the product distinctly less appealing to US users. It's not Deity's fault, and we don't know if Zaxcom would even be willing TO license their patented technology, they may have been approached and have said no so it's not just a money issue.
Good news is I've heard their patent expires next year. I don't know that for a fact but if true, that will be excellent.
Good news is I've heard their patent expires next year. I don't know that for a fact but if true, that will be excellent.
JAMedia
Well-known member
Which seems to be exactly what is happening with Rode.
Well, not for those who can do a day trip to Canada/Mexico
(or have a friend who is doing a trip to either.) I doubt anyone would be interested in licensing it as Deity, Rode etc have a free run in the rest of the world. (and people in the US who have friends travelling to Canada etc)
It will be interesting to see if they do re-new it. Is renewal automatic? I have no idea, but can people appeal against a renewal? Could Deity, Rode etc turn up and contest the renewal?
Would it be worth it for them?
I can't imagine anyone interested in the Rode devices also being in the market for a Zaxcom system?
Patents are not renewable. A patent is good for 20 years from the date it was filed. This patent was filed in 2005. It was awarded in 2010.
But there are other things to consider. .
- This patent has a note saying "Subject to any disclaimer, the term of this patent is extended or adjusted under 35
U.S.C. 154(b) by 1062 days. (2.9 years - probably because it took 5 years to award the patent. It usually takes about 2 years).
- The patent office does not publish an expiration date for patents. They go on to give methods to calculate the expiration date.
2005 + 20 years + 2.9 years makes it 2027-28.
Mr. Sanders has filed several other patents that may cover this idea another way. I haven't bothered to look at them.
But there are other things to consider. .
- This patent has a note saying "Subject to any disclaimer, the term of this patent is extended or adjusted under 35
U.S.C. 154(b) by 1062 days. (2.9 years - probably because it took 5 years to award the patent. It usually takes about 2 years).
- The patent office does not publish an expiration date for patents. They go on to give methods to calculate the expiration date.
2005 + 20 years + 2.9 years makes it 2027-28.
Mr. Sanders has filed several other patents that may cover this idea another way. I haven't bothered to look at them.
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Run&Gun
Veteran
Which seems to be exactly what is happening with Rode.
Well, not for those who can do a day trip to Canada/Mexico
I doubt anyone would be interested in licensing it as Deity, Rode etc have a free run in the rest of the world. (and people in the US who have friends travelling to Canada etc)
It will be interesting to see if they do re-new it. Is renewal automatic? I have no idea, but can people appeal against a renewal? Could Deity, Rode etc turn up and contest the renewal?
Would it be worth it for them?
I can't imagine anyone interested in the Rode devices also being in the market for a Zaxcom system?
So... From what I've read on other sites, and this may be complete speculation or even misunderstanding on their part, they said the Deity system will know where it is because of the app/GPS. So even if someone came in to the US from say somewhere in Europe for a shoot, then they would no longer be able to record and transmit simultaneously, while here. Kinda like geo fencing on drones. If true, that is some scary bullish!t, that manufacturers can lock equipment intended for professional use, like that. But I also understand that government/police agencies have been in possession of, for several years at least, equipment that can disable cell phones of not only their ability to transmit and receive(NOT new, I've experienced this numerous times covering Presidential visits and other high-profile events), but also the ability to record video, take pictures, etc,.
Oh yeah... F*CK Zaxcom.
Yea, and Charles Papert. Don't forget him with that stinking ZeeGee patent. Screw anyone with a patent.
I kid. I kid. I understand the frustration. But hey, if a tool is available from the government, why not use it? Do you fill out your tax return without using every advantage you can find?
It all depends on what side of the fence you are on. I don't like it anymore than anyone else, but my hat is off to Mr. Sanders and his attorneys for their clever use of what is available to them.
As to the argument of obviousness.... well, sure. It's obvious now, but it wasn't then, not until Zaxcom did it. I'm sure when it came out everyone in the wireless mic business slapped their palm to their forehead. "Fudge! Why didn't we come up with that!" It's like the smart phone. Apple came up with that. Why didn't Motorola or Nokia or Blackberry figure that out. They were in the phone business and didn't see it. An outsider that wasn't in the phone business came up with it. It was not obvious. How about intermittent windshield wipers? Were they obvious? Robert Kearns invented and patented them in 1967 and the car manufacturers said 'screw you'.
Peter C.
Veteran
It's no surprise that Tascam new version of the DR10L lets you view the wave form remotely but you can't listen to the audio.
I don't think Zaxcom was smarter than everyone else, it just happened that a very expensive wireless system could put the money into a body pack that could record and transmit. Back then audio recorders were very large and the idea you could make a unit small enough to wear and do both was to quote the Princess Bride... inconceivable!
I don't think Zaxcom was smarter than everyone else, it just happened that a very expensive wireless system could put the money into a body pack that could record and transmit. Back then audio recorders were very large and the idea you could make a unit small enough to wear and do both was to quote the Princess Bride... inconceivable!
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