Zaxcom patent infringement question

BrianMurphy

BrianMurphy

Veteran
Does anyone know if the Zaxcom patent extends to devices sold in Canada? I want to buy the new Zoom recorder but want the thru record feature to use it as a backup for my g3 wireless kits. I know it applies to the USA but not to international sales. Canada is indeed another nation and no-one has been able to answer this question. I have family in Europe and can ask them to ship to me but it just seems like a p.i.a.
Thanks
B
 
I’m also curious about this. All the US product listings tout the headphone/line output with no indication that it mutes during recording, and I wonder how they’re able to skirt the Zaxcom patent.

This is interesting, from the B&H listing for the F2-BT:

A locking 3.5mm stereo output jack with dedicated volume up/down buttons enables straightforward routing to your camera, DSLR, secondary recorder, or even headphones for monitoring.
Click to expand...

So I wonder if it’s the stereo wiring configuration, as opposed to a wireless-proprietary pin out made for passthrough to a TX, that gets around the patent.
 
I've done a bit of Googling but I'm left confused? What is this Zaxcom patent and what does it prevent other manufacturers doing? Passing audio through? Passing audio through what? Could somebody give a bit of context - I'm happy googling but can't quite find the correct search terms?

EDIT
Ah - found it. The protected feature is the recording of audio to an SD card while simultaneously transmitting it. How on earth did they get a patent on something like this when both devices already exist, and they just patented putting both in one box? Surely connecting any small audio recorder in the line to the transmitter can't be considered an infringement of a copyright when people have done it for years? I've clearly missed all the fuss this must have caused.
 
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paulears said:
... How on earth did they get a patent on something like this when both devices already exist, and they just patented putting both in one box?
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Ahh, the patent business; something close to my heart. The idea of a patent being 'novel' is long gone. I don't know the history of how this came to be, but let's just assume corporate patent lawyers had a lot more time and money than the patent office. I used to have a job where I actually was assigned a quota to have my group submit a certain number of patent applications every year. I have patents on the most absurd things you can imagine; all in the name of patenting as much stuff as possible so that if any other company came at us with a patent suit, we could compare patents and negotiate a settlement. It's madness.
 
paulears said:
I've done a bit of Googling but I'm left confused? What is this Zaxcom patent and what does it prevent other manufacturers doing? Passing audio through? Passing audio through what? Could somebody give a bit of context - I'm happy googling but can't quite find the correct search terms?

EDIT
Ah - found it. The protected feature is the recording of audio to an SD card while simultaneously transmitting it. How on earth did they get a patent on something like this when both devices already exist, and they just patented putting both in one box? Surely connecting any small audio recorder in the line to the transmitter can't be considered an infringement of a copyright when people have done it for years? I've clearly missed all the fuss this must have caused.
Click to expand...

AAANND... They somehow have been able to also prevent other devices (in the US) from just even having an audio pass-thru, as well. The US Patent System is beyond broken and stupid.

I’ve spent probably at least $75K on audio gear(and I’m not even an audio guy), mostly in Lectrosonics and Sound Devices and I will not give Zaxcom one penny of my money. And I know a lot of dedicated audio guys who will not do business with them, in part due to what they have done to stifle the industry with a BS patent that should never have been issued in the first place.

To the OP’s question, whenever I see equipment listed that is “affected” by this, I have only ever seen the features being listed as disabled specifically in the models for US sales.
 
Looks like the Zaxcom recording-transmitter patent is only an issue in the US.

For example, Audio LTD makes an interesting body-pack recording-transmitter, the A10-TX. But in the US, there's only a different version available, the A10-TX-US, which doesn't record (or at least won't simultaneously record and transmit): https://www.audioltd.com/a10-tx-us/

However, Trew Audio, the location-audio dealer with stores in both the US and Canada does sell the recording-version of the A10-TX in the Canadian locations, and says so specifically:
https://www.trewaudio.com/product/audio-ltd-a10-tx/

In big red letters on that page:
RECORDING TRANSMITTER FEATURE AVAILABLE IN CANADA.
PLEASE CONTACT TORONTO OR VANCOUVER FOR PRICING.
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I don't know if Zoom and Deity are (or will be) following the same approach, but it looks like you can get body-pack devices that record and transmit or passthrough in Canada.

HTH!
 
I find the whole thing ridiculous (sorry Glen), with the fact that it is two different markets for the low budget recorders with a throughput. Though I wonder how many future Zax buyers feel alienated, and will choose another manufacturer when that time comes.
However Zax has every right to patent a device.
 
Rick R said:
I find the whole thing ridiculous (sorry Glen), with the fact that it is two different markets for the low budget recorders with a throughput. Though I wonder how many future Zax buyers feel alienated, and will choose another manufacturer when that time comes.
However Zax has every right to patent a device.
Click to expand...

I have no problems protecting your creation and original ideas, but in this case, it’s not an original idea and the enforcement extends way beyond that, to boot.
 
Like the ridiculous patent about RGB colour mixing, which was granted and completely ignored that schools and colleges had been mixing red, green and blue into new colours in classrooms for getting on for 100 years! Let alone the theatres worldwide who did the same thing. Then LED came along and some bright spark thought they'd patent it and did!
 
Word of warning... Anyone thinking of buying the Canadian versions of these tools and bringing them to the USA should consider that these devices probably will not be FCC certified. What that means in the real world is very little, but it could cause you some grief if the wrong person happens to be in town and decides to going fishing for fines.

Generally speaking the field engineers are too busy to care unless there is a complaint, so what you do is up to you. Just make sure you are in a frequency band that is legal in the area you are working and is open, helps keep the complaints down.
 
Well I had no idea that my question would result in the thread above but thanks to all for responding. I have contacted Trew audio in Toronto with a request to purchase a couple of Zoom F2/BT recorders. I stipulated that they needed to be the international version that allowed through put when recording. The chap at Trew said they had none in stock, but he would contact the company and clarify my question and when he would have some.
In response to a somewhat elitist point of view that these are "consumer recorders" I am happy to say that works for me. 95% of the work I do these days ends up in the same place you are reading this, the internet, and the reviews from others who make their living in the same way as I do of the Zoom F2 have all been very positive. So like many, I enjoy reading about Zaxcom equipment and $80,000 cinema zooms but having a back up of the CEO doing a walk and talk in the plant with my two hundred dollar recorder is my reality.
Cheers!
 
Greg_E said:
Word of warning... Anyone thinking of buying the Canadian versions of these tools and bringing them to the USA should consider that these devices probably will not be FCC certified. What that means in the real world is very little, but it could cause you some grief if the wrong person happens to be in town and decides to going fishing for fines.

Generally speaking the field engineers are too busy to care unless there is a complaint, so what you do is up to you. Just make sure you are in a frequency band that is legal in the area you are working and is open, helps keep the complaints down.
Click to expand...

The F2 is not a wireless transmitter. The transmitter some people may attach to it will be FCC certified. Sure, the F2 is a radiator like any electronic device, but I doubt the international version is any different from the FCC certified version with the exception that some firmware shuts off the output jack. On set, with all the other radiators, the F2 will likely be a tiny blip of no consequence and legal, but with no FCC gibberish on the outside.
 
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Paul you touched on an interesting point. Firmware. Could it possibly, be that all that would be needed to modify the unit would be a firmware update to an international version? Makes sense that it would be rather than two different processes in the manufacturing line.
 
BrianMurphy said:
Paul you touched on an interesting point. Firmware. Could it possibly, be that all that would be needed to modify the unit would be a firmware update to an international version? Makes sense that it would be rather than two different processes in the manufacturing line.
Click to expand...

Paul F said:
Yes, that is a possibility, but there may be checks in the unit to prevent that from happening.
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Touching on that... When I bought a set of the high powered Lectro Beltpacks several years ago that have built-in recording capabilities, that are disarmed when transmitting in the US(you can run them as recorders OR transmitters, but not both simultaneously), I was told by my rep that they are only a firmware update away from being able to transmit AND record simultaneously.

It would be interesting to see, if only on an academic level ; ) , if someone could "unlock" them like what happened with the F5/4K hack.
 
Regarding firmware - it's a pain to do quality assurance on firmware releases to make sure nothing broke and everything works. So variants are always costly and avoided as much as possible. Simple solutions to variants are always sought. So make your own conclusions.

One more thought about FCC compliance; the rest of the world has the same issues and similar requirements as the FCC, possibly even more stringent. So it makes no sense to make two different units. Complying to FCC requirements for a device like the F2 is pretty simple and it would cost more to make different units than make them all the same. To keep inventory variants down, all the devices may have FCC and EU compliance marks on all units.
 
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I've read others post that with other devices like the Deity HD-TX, that through downloading with a VPN, it's easy to obtain firmware from another country and turn your HD-TX into a "world" model
to circumvent Zaxcom's stupid and punitive patent. While I am not a pro sound mixer, I would never buy a Zaxcom product out of principal if I was. Not sure if this is possible with the Zoom but it
might be?
 
Run&Gun said:
AAANND... They somehow have been able to also prevent other devices (in the US) from just even having an audio pass-thru, as well. The US Patent System is beyond broken and stupid.

I’ve spent probably at least $75K on audio gear(and I’m not even an audio guy), mostly in Lectrosonics and Sound Devices and I will not give Zaxcom one penny of my money. And I know a lot of dedicated audio guys who will not do business with them, in part due to what they have done to stifle the industry with a BS patent that should never have been issued in the first place.

To the OP’s question, whenever I see equipment listed that is “affected” by this, I have only ever seen the features being listed as disabled specifically in the models for US sales.
Click to expand...

Not one penny to zaxcon from me also. I purchase overseas whenever the Zaxcon patent forces me to, like the several track E’s I ordered from England.
 
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