Zacuto Shootout (GH1 specific)

And I believe that the GH1 was handled properly on these tests. I may disagree about their interpetation of the bathtub look, and I'm a little confused about the DR chart (with regards to 5D vs 7D as well), but Bloom knows what he's doing and isn't a shill to any brand.
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I'd mostly agree with this, having watched it a second time. There is only so many sound bites that can go into a 30 minute infomercial, so I think taking what was was presented here with a pinch of salt is the way to go. Apart from the slightly cheesy western edit, I thought this was really interesting and just would like to see more of the comments from everybody in the theatre.

Hats off to Zacuto for putting this together.
 
Canon is doing everything they can to be the future of DSLRs. They have multiple products, intensive marketing and active, responsive support. This builds consumer loyalty and confidence which translates into increased sales and an enhanced reputation.

By contrast, Panasonic has released a camera.

It's amazing that anyone is surprised or disappointed when the Canons receive more attention and praise than the GH1. Even if the capabilities of all these DSLRs were shown to be completely identical, Canon would still be way ahead. They're actively involved and seem to care.

I'm not suggesting that any of these tests are skewed toward one product or the other. But I do think all of this can't help but influence the overall opinion of any reviewer; no matter how impartial they try to be.
 
AdrianF said:
...I thought this was really interesting and just would like to see more of the comments from everybody in the theatre.
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This is my point exactly. I can't really fault the actual test (except in the case of that DR chart, there's just something about it...) but I can be not quite as satisfied with the editing of the thing. I want to know what was said about each camera in the theater. I personally don't care what the Zacuto guys or the test guys think, and Bloom and Maschwitz have made their opinions clear on their personal and professional blogs, but the guys in the theater... that's the opinion I watched for and I wanted to hear their thoughts on each camera.
 
I agree tflak. A few months back, there was a dSLR conference in London sponsored by Canon with PB as one of the guest speakers. They are putting a lot of effort into post-launch marketing through these channels.

All of us have biases. Companies are out to make money. Zacuto make more money from Canon owners than GH1 owners. One of the purposes of this shootout infomercial will be to drive sales to Canon and therefore Zacuto. These companies are banking on Philip Bloom's reputation, both as a cinematographer and as a 'neutral', when they call on him for this sort of work. Philip Bloom also makes money by selling DVD tutorials on how to use Canon products. It is a virtuous circle from which Panasonic is excluded. That has been Panasonic's choice - they could have invested in these marketing channels like Canon but haven't bothered.
 
Kellar42 said:
Guys...I gotta say...again...while I feel that both Zacuto and Bloom are focusing on the Canons and feel they are the future, I firmly believe that Bloom knows how to use the GH1 better than most of us and was using it that way on the test, not somehow torpeoding it or ignoring it as suggested many times on this thread.

Look around...aside from Ben Bunch, and the occasional reminder from Barry Green, I'm probably the GH1's biggest defender on these boards. I showed up with the GH1 + Lecias at two bloom events when I could have taken a 7D. I'm shooting two ongoing documentaries on the GH1.

And I believe that the GH1 was handled properly on these tests. I may disagree about their interpetation of the bathtub look, and I'm a little confused about the DR chart (with regards to 5D vs 7D as well), but Bloom knows what he's doing and isn't a shill to any brand.
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I hear you, I'm not even a GH1 owners. I own a 7D. I'm not 1 of those guys who gets blinded by the fact that I own 1 camera so I knock the next 1. What I'm saying is I'm a fan of DSLRs. And based on alot of the belly aching I have been hearing about the GH1's test and proper settings I believe it would have been better served if someone from Panny and some of these other companies (Nikon) would have showed up and stood behind there product. I'm aware of Phillip Bloom's work and am among 1 of his hugest fans. But at the end of the day he gave the impression that the camera was not tweaked to it's optimum level. I along with many other users heard what he said and that is what I'm going off of. I never said he was motivated to make 1 camera out perform the other. I feel as though Phillip is way beyond something so petty. Let be perfectly clear. If the GH2 comes out and blows the 7D out of the water. I will probably be a GH2 owner at that time. I love DLSR technology and look forward to it getting better. Now here is my question. Are you saying that the GH1 could not be tweak to perform better in those test or are you saying that Phillip tried his best. Because if your saying Phillip tried his best we are in agreement. If your saying that in your opinion the GH1 was tweaked to it's optimal level then I can respect that based on the fact that you are an owner of 1. I'm basing my opinion on what Phillip said and many other users were speaking of. At no time did or would I ever say that Phillip didn't do his best with what he had.

Kellar42 said:
I may disagree about their interpetation of the bathtub look, and I'm a little confused about the DR chart (with regards to 5D vs 7D as well)
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This statement is exactly why I feel the way I feel. The other companys should have been at this shootout. It says alot:)

Ben_B said:
According to P.Bloom he used Smooth with sharpness -2 and contrast -2. Via Facebook.

I would call this proper handling.

So, maybe it doesn't quite have the latitude of the other cameras. That's fine. Everyone ooh'd and aw'd when it came on and then started tearing into it.

I am looking forward to the other tests...you know...the ones where we just get to ooh and ah :)
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Maybe that is the case and if so I'm good with that. Am I alone thinking that it sucked that the other companies should have showed face?
 
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The reason I quoted Phil Bloom's statement verbatim in my previous post ...
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1941402&postcount=52

... is because what he said seems like an odd choice of words to me. Again, Phil said: "I think a lot of that gets down to the fact that we were really not able to tweak [the GH1's] profile to its optimum level, which is what we were doing with the other cameras".

Leaving aside opinions about anyone's motivations, what he _said_ implies he felt the GH1 _could_ have been adjusted to show better results, but for whatever reason this wasn't done. Perhaps it was just a poor word choice on his part. Or maybe the editor omitted a qualifying statement. That's cool. And there may have been very good reasons for not being able to further adjust the GH1 (time restraints, equipment availability, logistics, etc.).

I hope Phil will now, after the fact, say a bit more about what he _meant_, because ("again") I think it was a very odd thing to say, especially without explanation.

Meanwhile, a here's a new topic (or at least I haven't seen this previously discussed):

One thing about the shootout I thought interesting is that the Kodak & Fuji film stocks were essentially "downgraded" to 2K film scans. All this talk about detail in highlights, etc., but they're comparing DSLR video to 2K film scans. I don't think this significantly affects the latitude comparisons, but maybe they should have commented on its affect on comparisons concerning "detail"?

However, if I'm mistaken about this I'd appreciate hearing more. My understanding is that film can be scanned to 4K and above and display significant additional detail. I doubt DSLR video would similarly benefit from a >2K presentation, especially concerning detail, in highlights or otherwise.

My point is not to start a film vs. video debate. But since film is the benchmark used in the shootout, just to emphasize the point that a 2K scan is not film at anywhere close to its best. We shouldn't feel overly-good about how well our favorite DSLR seems to have fared in this particular shootout compared to film, when the film examples were only -- properly and professionally -- "downgraded" to 2K.

But, sure, the DSLRs fared surprisingly well compared to 2K film scans, and that's a good thing, but only as far as it goes. :-)
 
But isn't 2k the most common projection standard as of right now? It would stand to reason that the test would pit the cameras against film in the most common digital projection resolution.
 
onion said:
All of us have biases. Companies are out to make money. Zacuto make more money from Canon owners than GH1 owners. One of the purposes of this shootout infomercial will be to drive sales to Canon and therefore Zacuto. These companies are banking on Philip Bloom's reputation, both as a cinematographer and as a 'neutral', when they call on him for this sort of work. Philip Bloom also makes money by selling DVD tutorials on how to use Canon products. It is a virtuous circle from which Panasonic is excluded. That has been Panasonic's choice - they could have invested in these marketing channels like Canon but haven't bothered.
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I agree here, only makes sense the one who throws the most money at it will win... I never see many Panasonic ads in general... but see a ton of Canon / Sony / Nikon ads all the time... I am not sure their marketing approach world wide but its definitely the case in the US.

At the same time Panasonic makes a great product and perhaps rely mostly on word or mouth, also a very proven strategy - its how I own a lot of Panasonic electronics.
 
pharpsied said:
Well, don't they consider the GH1 a consumer cam?
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They do indeed - GH1 is in the high-end luxury consumer category. I bet the consumer still camera division within Panasonic that made GH1 is even more surprised that film makers are using it than Canon was when 5DmkII got attention for it's video. That's what make GH1's video quality even more remarkable - it's targeted for rich tourists and yet here's a group of film pros trying it out against film. Compare that to the fact that 5DmkII is a pro camera (and 7D to a extent)... We still have to see what Panasonic Broadcast might come up with.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo said:
My understanding is that film can be scanned to 4K and above and display significant additional detail. I doubt DSLR video would similarly benefit from a >2K presentation, especially concerning detail, in highlights or otherwise.

My point is not to start a film vs. video debate. But since film is the benchmark used in the shootout, just to emphasize the point that a 2K scan is not film at anywhere close to its best.
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The horrible truth is that a lot if not most digital intermediate work today is done at 2K since the film studios realised that most of the audiences chose to sit in the back of cinemas where they can't tell the difference between 2K and 4K at all anyway. Doing 2K instead of 4K is quite a money saver both for processing time and storage.
 
Martti Ekstrand said:
They do indeed - GH1 is in the high-end luxury consumer category. I bet the consumer still camera division within Panasonic that made GH1 is even more surprised that film makers are using it than Canon was when 5DmkII got attention for it's video. That's what make GH1's video quality even more remarkable - it's targeted for rich tourists and yet here's a group of film pros trying it out against film. Compare that to the fact that 5DmkII is a pro camera (and 7D to a extent)... We still have to see what Panasonic Broadcast might come up with.
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you know what... I just realized that I have never thought of the GH1 as anything other than an inexpensive large sensor video camera that shoot pictures and requires extra work due to the price point. The rich tourist thing puts certain realities in perspective for me.
 
MadHMC150 said:
I agree here, only makes sense the one who throws the most money at it will win... I never see many Panasonic ads in general... but see a ton of Canon / Sony / Nikon ads all the time... I am not sure their marketing approach world wide but its definitely the case in the US.
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I was just going to say that in Canada before during and for a little bit just after the olympics there was a TON of GH1 and panasonic ads all over town and on TV.

They were an official sponsor, so I almost think they really poured a lot of their advertising budget into the olympics thinking they could reach their target audience better that way perhaps?
 
pharpsied said:
Well, don't they consider the GH1 a consumer cam?

BTW, I am a full nostalgic convert! Thanks, Rory and Pappas.
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I'll see if things have changed at NAB, but last year, definitely the GH-1 was nowhere to be seen at the Panasonic Booth... because 'oh, that's a consumer camera'...

I've also noticed there is an occasional appearence in the HMC150 (and other Panasonic sections) of someone from Panasonic to 'explain/comment'. Has any Panasonic person
commented here in the GH-1 section?
 
pharpsied said:
Well, don't they consider the GH1 a consumer cam?

BTW, I am a full nostalgic convert! Thanks, Rory and Pappas.
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Awesome. It truly is a good option to get a very flat image with the GH1.



OAT-

The subject of sharpness. The thing about the GH1 is, there's no heavy internal detail added: that sharpness is do to the better down sample from the 4K image it starts with. One thing about the GH1 image is, it has little to even no "ringing" ( edge line ) around objects.



Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
http://SumeriusChronicles.com/
http://TheOrbisTerrarum.com/
 
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Kellar42 said:
Guys...I gotta say...again...while I feel that both Zacuto and Bloom are focusing on the Canons and feel they are the future, I firmly believe that Bloom knows how to use the GH1 better than most of us and was using it that way on the test, not somehow torpeoding it or ignoring it as suggested many times on this thread.

Look around...aside from Ben Bunch, and the occasional reminder from Barry Green, I'm probably the GH1's biggest defender on these boards. I showed up with the GH1 + Lecias at two bloom events when I could have taken a 7D. I'm shooting two ongoing documentaries on the GH1.

And I believe that the GH1 was handled properly on these tests. I may disagree about their interpetation of the bathtub look, and I'm a little confused about the DR chart (with regards to 5D vs 7D as well), but Bloom knows what he's doing and isn't a shill to any brand.
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I don't own any of these cameras, but I still prefer the GH1 for its longer recording time (the biggest weakness of all the Canons for my purposes) and 60 fps capability. Phil Bloom evidently prefers the Canon cameras, but to add to what Kellar42 said, in Mr. Bloom's defense, his was the very first online sample of GH1 footage that I ever watched. Also, Panasonic UK prominently features his 'Joshua Tree' short film (shot on the GH1) on You Tube, which is impressive.
 
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John_in_NY said:
Phil Bloom evidently prefers the Canon cameras, but to add to what Kellar42 said, in Mr. Bloom's defense, his was the very first online sample of GH1 footage that I ever watched. Also, Panasonic UK prominently features his 'Joshua Tree' short film (shot on the GH1) on You Tube, which is impressive.
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Philip Bloom is the reason I considered the GH1 in the first place. It was the Kauai video that convinced me. However, the fact remains that something was said during the test that seemed suspect. No matter how much I respect somebody, or appreciate their work, the simple fact of the matter is that suspect is suspect and should be addressed.

But it could all be so simple, cut the video so that it's film vs. cameras and not an extended, 3 part Canon commercial in the midst of a pretty informative test. I would say this if it were the other companies that were being touted against the others because the presenters used the word "scientific." By virtue of the very use of the word, there should be some inherent objectivity in the test.
That's my point.
 
Never forget that Pannie does not want the GH1 seen as a pro cam, they want to sell it as a high end consumer cam, so so they will not let the GH1 be treated the way we think it deserves. It would create the wrong positioning. They might be afraid that consumers will be afraid of a cam that pros use.
 
Here's the GH1 and just the 35mm film grabs. It's amazing for the price no matter what. The fact that this is the infancy of all this; is what's amazing..

GH1VSFILM.jpg



Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
http://SumeriusChronicles.com/
http://TheOrbisTerrarum.com/
 
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