Zacuto Camera Shootout 2018 : Panasonic EVA1 vs Canon C200

When I first started shooting LOG I didn't monitor the images with any LUTs and my exposures and white balances were wildly off. And it didn't help I didn't know how to grade those kind of pictures then. Regardless, both my fault for not using the proper tools. I also had to dial in a temperature manually as I didn't use cameras that could do it with the press of a button. Outside was easy, but inside under various lighting was more difficult. But having LUTs and various assistance today makes it easier than ever.
 
Run&Gun said:
You kids, get off my lawn!

I cut my teeth on Betacam. Shot it from the beginning of my internship in 1996(bought my first one in '97) until probably at least 2012- nine years after I had started shooting HD and over six after I had bought my first VariCam.

Yep, B&W CRT VF's. You really had to know what your camera would do under different lighting conditions. And we rarely had incorrect white balances and exposure issues. I actually didn't get my first color VF until after I bought my first P2 Vari. Which is why it baffles me today as to why I see so much poorly exposed and white balanced video since almost every camera has a color VF or monitor attached.
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That said, I still get thrown off by an LED here and there.

I have been meaning to break out the SDX900 again. Will have to shoot a music video with it or something.
 
NorBro said:
When I first started shooting LOG I didn't monitor the images with any LUTs and my exposures and white balances were wildly off. And it didn't help I didn't know how to grade those kind of pictures then. Regardless, both my fault for not using the proper tools. I also had to dial in a temperature manually as I didn't use cameras that could do it with the press of a button. Outside was easy, but inside under various lighting was more difficult. But having LUTs and various assistance today makes it easier than ever.
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The A7S series camera's custom white balance is awful.

C200 RAW should fix all that ails us
 
For me, there is nothing better than REDCODE RAW or CinemaDNG...all cameras should have both, ha. (No experience with ARRIRAW.)
 
NorBro said:
For me, there is nothing better than REDCODE RAW or CinemaDNG...all cameras should have both, ha. (No experience with ARRIRAW.)
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Yes, RED's unsung hero is really it's wavelet based compression. Even if I dislike most of their older cameras for skin tones.

I found that Arriraw was no better than Prores 444. So why bother with an additional recorder, etc. ?
The difference is that it allowed for Opengate mode and some different resolution/framerates.

Having worked with the best, I will not hesitate to say that a lot of these advances are not pre-requisite for making nice images. I still love my F3's and may even shoot a feature with three of them. No one has questioned the level of quality coming out of them when they see the results, even today. And this is coming from a camera that is what, 7 years old ? So I don't give a crap about 4K. I get excellent coverage and image quality in exchange for using an unfashionable dinosaur and can pick a used one up for less than a DSLR (around $1500). To date, I have not seen a single DSLR (including the Sony's and GH's) which can compete with them for the quality of their outputs. I even prefer them to any RED camera up until Helium. Would I shoot a high profile job with them ? Of course not, I would rent an Alexa. But that has more to do with my client's expectations than the images they produce. I do know the difference though and it basically has to do with gaining a tremendous margin in highlight latitude. I have a theory that people shoot Alexa basically to cover their butts from an exposure point of view. (An interesting turn of phrase, :-) I did a lot of testing comparing the Alexa and the F3 and boy did the latter actually hold up quite well. I might just publish it here for folks to see...
 
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yoclay said:
I did a lot of testing comparing the Alexa and the F3 and boy did the latter actually hold up quite well. I might just publish it here for folks to see...
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Would be cool to see it. I've never seen an F3 look good outside of the sweet spot, whereas Dragon, F55, and Arri all have more grace.
 
James0b57 said:
Would be cool to see it. I've never seen an F3 look good outside of the sweet spot, whereas Dragon, F55, and Arri all have more grace.
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Its a question of proper exposure. The original SLOG looks more organic in my opinion. This is due to the larger pixels and conservative noise levels.
I have never liked the skin tones of Dragon, Epic, etc. However, I am more impressed by RED with the onset of Helium. The color science works better for faces.
I have not worked with the F55, so can't respond to that, but everything I have seen from the F5 and F55 feels more "video" to me. Sometimes the added resolution is not a good thing.
Which is why I think Arri really hit the sweet spot with their sensor. It is not over-resolving, thus less video like than other manufacturer's.
Coming back to the F3, I view it's "deficit" of not being 4K, actually as an advantage, for the same reason I like Arri.

What I feel about the EVA1 is that it attempts to have a very smooth (sometimes slightly mushy) set of transitions. With the added saturation of the look Panasonic have created for it, it feels very Varicam. I do think it would benefit from RAW, as the compression scheme is not doing it any favors and I think the downscale from 5.7K to 4K is not really showing.

The C200 in RAW Lite really surprises me. I like it despite myself. Very different from the F3, but there is something about it which has very satisfying contrast and sharpness. Even though there is no real internal downscale, I feel that Canon has really optimized their sensor technology. The next iteration of their cameras will most certainly benefit from this and I am drawn to what they will do next. Clearly the DPAF is also their strongest card in the deck and that too is a great advantage. Lastly, I like the smallish form factor of both of these cameras. I don't want a C700 or a big Varicam. I want something I can use often and in less auspicious situations as well as on narrative fiction. Both of these cams do it for me.

The biggest factor keeping me from viewing these cameras as a higher tier product however, is simply their lack of a user friendly interchangeable mount system. At the higher echelons in filmmaking which I only occasionally get to scratch at, PL is king, and I definitely want to be able to pop my Cooke on a camera if need be. Conversely, if I was to get Canon's PL mount version I would be losing one of the strongest advantages of the cameras functionality, which is problematic. The EVA1 does have the ability for the user to swap out to PL, but it involves shims and really is not a quick mount change like in the Sony systems. So actually, both the EVA1 and C200 are held down to their respective $8k class by this problem. End of the day, I think this is one of the bigger determinants as to why they are viewed as video cameras in a certain market and not cinema cameras. However, the addition of RAW will definitely push the indie filmmakers to both of these cameras (later for the EVA1), and this alone is probably the biggest reason why both of these cameras are drawing attention on these boards. For this reason I think the Zacuto shootout is a bit of a moot point. It is too early. When the Panny gets RAW, thats when I DEFINITELY want to see a comparison between these two cameras.

So Mitch, if you are reading this, perhaps you can tell Panny to get on the RAW horse sooner, rather than later, ALL-I is nice, but if you really want sales to pick up then lets see what your downscale looks like in RAW.
 
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yoclay said:
Its a question of proper exposure. The original SLOG looks more organic in my opinion. This is due to the larger pixels and conservative noise levels.
I have never liked the skin tones of Dragon, Epic, etc. However, I am more impressed by RED with the onset of Helium. The color science works better for faces.
I have not worked with the F55, so can't respond to that, but everything I have seen from the F5 and F55 feels more "video" to me. Sometimes the added resolution is not a good thing.
Which is why I think Arri really hit the sweet spot with their sensor. It is not over-resolving, thus less video like than other manufacturer's.
Coming back to the F3, I view it's "deficit" of not being 4K, actually as an advantage, for the same reason I like Arri.

What I feel about the EVA1 is that it attempts to have a very smooth (sometimes slightly mushy) set of transitions. With the added saturation of the look Panasonic have created for it, it feels very Varicam. I do think it would benefit from RAW, as the compression scheme is not doing it any favors and I think the downscale from 5.7K to 4K is not really showing.

The C200 in RAW Lite really surprises me. I like it despite myself. Very different from the F3, but there is something about it which has very satisfying contrast and sharpness. Even though there is no real internal downscale, I feel that Canon has really optimized their sensor technology. The next iteration of their cameras will most certainly benefit from this and I am drawn to what they will do next. Clearly the DPAF is also their strongest card in the deck and that too is a great advantage. Lastly, I like the smallish form factor of both of these cameras. I don't want a C700 or a big Varicam. I want something I can use often and in less auspicious situations as well as on narrative fiction. Both of these cams do it for me.

The biggest factor keeping me from viewing these cameras as a higher tier product however, is simply their lack of a user friendly interchangeable mount system. At the higher echelons in filmmaking which I only occasionally get to scratch at, PL is king, and I definitely want to be able to pop my Cooke on a camera if need be. Conversely, if I was to get Canon's PL mount version I would be losing one of the strongest advantages of the cameras functionality, which is problematic. The EVA1 does have the ability for the user to swap out to PL, but it involves shims and really is not a quick mount change like in the Sony systems. So actually, both the EVA1 and C200 are held down to their respective $8k class by this problem. End of the day, I think this is one of the bigger determinants as to why they are viewed as video cameras in a certain market and not cinema cameras. However, the addition of RAW will definitely push the indie filmmakers to both of these cameras (later for the EVA1), and this alone is probably the biggest reason why both of these cameras are drawing attention on these boards. For this reason I think the Zacuto shootout is a bit of a moot point. It is too early. When the Panny gets RAW, thats when I DEFINITELY want to see a comparison between these two cameras.

So Mitch, if you are reading this, perhaps you can tell Panny to get on the RAW horse sooner, rather than later, ALL-I is nice, but if you really want sales to pick up then lets see what your downscale looks like in RAW.
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I can soundly say I agree with you on all of that.
 
puredrifting said:
That's what happens when people inexplicably wrap up their self-worth, esteem and identity in a product that they bought. Strangest psychological phenomenon I have ever experienced and it baffles me. I really should make a documentary about it. I've seen it with cars, motorcycles, computers but also especially with video and photographic gear. It's just plain weird and I see it far more with men than with women. I own the C200. If the shootout finds the EVA 1 produces a superior image, I will find it nothing more than interesting, it won't change my mind that the camera I bought was the right choice for my needs at the time and I've always said that if I could afford it, I would love to own both. But for cripes sake, it's just a stupid tool that I bought, it's not ME. Why do guys get all freaky about this stuff?
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Interesting that you find it more with men than women, I wonder if that's because cars, computers, motorcycles, and video seem to me a more male dominate field? Either way like you said it's strange, I guess it's self doubt that one bought the "wong" tool. And like you said it's a tool at the end of the day. I do about 50% still work and constantly tell photographers that the a7R II is a great camera but know what you are getting into. 42mp, 8k footage, a billion stops of dynamic range, only do so much and if your skill isn't there then the tool wont fix that. /rant.

I will say this shootout does interest me a bit though as I fell a bit behind in camera tech recently since I've been happy with my setup for the work I currently do. Was joking with a friend that the Alexa Classic has fallen so much in price that we should buy one cause that would get us so much extra work, which we both knew it would not. Know your market and the work that you do, not the work you want to do, and buy for that.
 
James0b57 said:
Had to white balance with a BW viewfinder. You have no idea.
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How do you think it was with film? No focus peaking, no focus assist, no inbuilt exposure measurement, no zebras, no white balance, no changeable ISO / ASA. You just had to know your craft and have a good exposure meter. With years of practice and experience most good cammos could judge distance by eye to within a few inches. Don't forget a lot of cameras never had through the lens viewing and focusing. A good cammo could also judge exposure to within about of a 1/3rd of a stop. If you were shooting fast turn around news or sport in color it was color reversal you were shooting on and 1/3rd of a stop was about all you had to play with. Experience would tell you just how far you could "push" the sensitivity of your B&W neg film, 125 ASA to 400 ASA for example. Of course you had to advise the lab that you had pushed the film and that it may require another 11 minutes in the "soup" for it to have sufficient density. Also remember no play back to check anything in those days. I can honestly say we live in a dream world today with the imaging kit we have at our disposal.

The real fun times were when you were sent out to cover a football (soccer) game with two 400 foot mags, 10 mins apiece, to cover a 90 min game. God help you if you didn't come back with all the goals that were scored. Especially if the opposition networks had all the goals to broadcast. You may have got the goal going in the net but have missed the kick from the player who scored it. After the restart you would be chasing the player just to try and get a good kick shot that could be inter cut with the goal shot.

BVU and Betacam were a breeze for run and gun over shooting, especially one piece Beta units. The killer was lugging one of these Ampex/Nagra 1" portables around. Portable was a joke!

vpr5_1.jpg


Forget about what people say about the "Good old days." Give me the present day anytime.

Chris Young
 
dcoughla said:
Thanks for participating in the shootout and chiming in here, @Mitch Gross

Question for you: do you know of any future EVA1 demonstration-type events scheduled for the LA area? The Panasonic USA Facebook upcoming event calendar is blank. I see I missed the bulk of the events earlier this year, so if there's nothing planned perhaps you know of a local store with one on the floor for a demo? Abelcine doesn't seem to have them listed for rent yet.
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We just had an event at Birns & Sawyer a few weeks ago. I think we'll be doing more after NAB but don't have a schedule at this time.

I know a number of places have the EVA1 available for demo. I believe AbelCine has one on the salesroom show floor so even if they don't have it available in rental you should be able to to check it out there. Birns & Sawyer rents the EVA1, and I believe a bunch of the smaller houses do as well. You can also see if EVS, Samy's or BandPro have one around for you to see. With all of the above, it makes sense to call first.
 
yoclay said:
I agree that this was a valuable set of tests. However, I think what most people are interested in is that the differences are more clearly stated. It doesn't feel like anyone has really dared to do this because of the politics and positions involved. As a matter of fact I would like to hear what you feel the differences are and where they can be seen or examined in the footage. Can you state these things without being at odds with your position as a rep for one of the players ?
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I'll point out a couple of things.

I feel that EVA1 has greater information in the shadows. There is simply more detail before the image collapses. You could say that's 10-bit but I find it true compared to the Canon RAW-lite as well, so there's that.

EVA1 colors are more accurate. In the interior location the walls were a neutral gray tone, perhaps leaning a touch to the blue in daylight. This is rendered quite accurately by the EVA1, but I did not find that at all with the C200. Those colors were just wrong.

EVA1 has greater accuracy in the reds. Look at the 400x images in the interior. Ours looks right. The C200 looked ... otherwise.

EVA1 has far greater color information in highlights. On the day exterior the sunlit buildings nearly went white on the C200 while the EVA1 correctly showed their colors. Likewise, in the night exteriors the colored highlights on buildings had far greater (and much more accurate) saturation than those on the C200. This was made clear in the magnified views as well.

These are only some of the examples and differences, but I think they are telling ones. You can get a pleasing image out of either camera, but if you wish to combine that with accuracy and with not having to struggle in post to create colors or power window like crazy, then I liked what I saw n the EVA1.
 
Mitch Gross said:
I'll point out a couple of things.

I feel that EVA1 has greater information in the shadows. There is simply more detail before the image collapses. You could say that's 10-bit but I find it true compared to the Canon RAW-lite as well, so there's that.

EVA1 colors are more accurate. In the interior location the walls were a neutral gray tone, perhaps leaning a touch to the blue in daylight. This is rendered quite accurately by the EVA1, but I did not find that at all with the C200. Those colors were just wrong.

EVA1 has greater accuracy in the reds. Look at the 400x images in the interior. Ours looks right. The C200 looked ... otherwise.

EVA1 has far greater color information in highlights. On the day exterior the sunlit buildings nearly went white on the C200 while the EVA1 correctly showed their colors. Likewise, in the night exteriors the colored highlights on buildings had far greater (and much more accurate) saturation than those on the C200. This was made clear in the magnified views as well.

These are only some of the examples and differences, but I think they are telling ones. You can get a pleasing image out of either camera, but if you wish to combine that with accuracy and with not having to struggle in post to create colors or power window like crazy, then I liked what I saw n the EVA1.
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Thanks for taking the time to respond Mitch.
I will definitely be on the lookout for these points in my own tests.
I am also definitely looking forward to see what the RAW yields.
 
I’m case anyone wasn’t clear:

RAW resolutions/frame rates:

5.7K up to 30p, Super-35 sensor area
4K up to 60p, 4/3” sensor area
2K up to 240p, 4/3” sensor area
 
yoclay said:
It's a shame about the 4/3” crop.
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It is. But it's not so bad once you understand the nature of the beast. 5.7k full sensor just isn't possible, that's a ton of data. So, you've got to pull less data hence using the 4K resolution (which on most S35 cameras would mean no crop). But given the 5.7k, you have to crop in to the 4k which equates a 4/3 crop. The 2K is pulled off of the same 4K using a MIX mode so it does not incur any further crop. 2K RAW @ 240fps with a 4/3 FOV is pretty solid.

The 5.7k, for all the super high crisp detail it renders, does come with some drawbacks and that's one of them. Shooting raw at wide angle on EVA1 will be rough, especially if you want to shoot wide AND fast. But for anything more standard focal length it's a great option.
 
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