Zacuto Camera Shootout 2018 : Panasonic EVA1 vs Canon C200

dcoughla said:
Why does it have to be a gender thing? Unless you're spending a lot of time in female-focused communities and can confirm otherwise, I'm guessing it probably happens there too, just arguing about different things.
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Funny you should mention it but I've been producing a documentary specifically about a group of very equipment-centric female athletes whose actual lives are staked on the gear that they buy and use, and I can report that there is VERY little arguing, posturing and wrapping up of personal esteem in the tools that they buy and use. It's much more a guy thing and as a guy, I am baffled why guys are so shallow as to give a s*** about this stuff. It's also interesting, I grew up in construction and am still friends with several very talented electricians, carpenters, plumbers and contractors and I have yet to see anyone wrap up their self-worth in their choice of circular saw or drill brands. This affectation seems especially predominant in the electronics communities, computers, cameras, video, film, gaming and in vehicles. It's just so infantile.

dcoughla said:
I think it's more that all humans want the satisfaction of feeling special / like they're the best / like they belong.
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On this, I couldn't agree more.

dcoughla said:
For most, their only shot at that is through buying things, because they lack the talent or ability or discipline to get there otherwise. So they attach a lot of importance to the tools, because they function as the sole connection to legitimacy. If you can't shoot the next great film, and you can't even buy the right camera, who are you? Nothing. No one wants to admit that, so they fight.
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If true, that's incredibly sad. If the only way a person finds validation and fulfillment is through the acquisition of objects, that in the grand scheme of things, their life is essentially meaningless.

But back on topic, I watched some of the Zacuto live stream. The 720p is so grainy and pixelated as to be kind of pointless from a visual standpoint, although the discussion and comments are interesting.
 
I thought I was going to be able to muster the enthusiasm to watch this. But I just don't see how there could be a fruitful discussion between the 4 of them without constantly stepping on each other toes—which I'm just going to assume didn't happen.

Then: just watch the first few seconds of the 4k clip and you'll immediately realise that any difference in output will be MUCH greater between operators than between cameras.

Then: what's the premise here? Pushing the cameras? What does that even mean—doing a poor job lighting the set? Well, that's not a good starting point. What then... do a GOOD job of lighting the set? Well, then the images will just look the same with no issues.

EXACTLY.

The 5D mkII and mkIII had some issues. The C100 was essentially good enough, but lacked some fidelity and AF. Now we have 4k, 10+ bit (depending on body) and AF in a small and portable package.

Cameras are good enough now and has been for a while.
 
No doubt ego etc amplifies the issue of gear buy-in/protection, but for many DPs at the more common non-Hollywood, industrial levels, owning a specific camera is important to luring clients.
So..there becomes a dual level of "investment" at play.

Interesting if that a Canon rep suggested need for an encoding upgrade. They should also offer timecode i/o...if only as an add-on module s la FS7
 
I agree with Andree, this interior scene and most of the exteriors are poorly lit. They should have actually set up scenes that make each camera shine, rather than try to just show noise in darks or how bad each camera can look. If I knew nothing about these cameras and viewed these shots, I would look elsewhere for a camera, both cameras look amazingly bad since almost all of the scenes are severaly underlit. What a disappointment. I also agree that a talented gaffer and or DP can make each of these cameras punch way above their weight class. So far, in general, I see few differences between the images from both cameras overall. There are subtle differences but both can look as good or bad as the DP will allow them to.
 
Gweilo66 said:
No doubt ego etc amplifies the issue of gear buy-in/protection, but for many DPs at the more common non-Hollywood, industrial levels, owning a specific camera is important to luring clients.
So..there becomes a dual level of "investment" at play.

Interesting if that a Canon rep suggested need for an encoding upgrade. They should also offer timecode i/o...if only as an add-on module s la FS7
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It's now mid-March. I am becoming doubtful that Canon IS going to give us a better codec, T/C i/o option or even fix any of the dozens of issues with the camera via firmware updates. It's pretty much just been radio silence from Canon on these issues. I'm happy overall with the camera and don't regret buying it, but many people wiser than me have said to assume that the camera you buy, warts and all, is the camera you will live with. Not always true but probably true more often than not. Look at everyone who bought a C300 MKII, assuming Canon would eventually offer it 4K 60p with a firmware update. Never happened, that's just the way it is. Seems as if it will be the same game plan with the C200. Like what it has or look elsewhere for what you want.
 
Gweilo66 said:
Interesting if that a Canon rep suggested need for an encoding upgrade. They should also offer timecode i/o...if only as an add-on module s la FS7
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I was wondering if they could do something for TC utilizing the worthless ethernet port on the camera. An ethernet to BNC adapter/dongle with a firmware update would be great if it's possible from an engineering perspective (I have no idea).
 
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puredrifting said:
Funny you should mention it but I've been producing a documentary specifically about a group of very equipment-centric female athletes whose actual lives are staked on the gear that they buy and use, and I can report that there is VERY little arguing, posturing and wrapping up of personal esteem in the tools that they buy and use.
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Interesting. I generally find women more level-headed, rational, and genuinely less prone to this male BS (and prefer working with them for this reason), but never experienced gear-heavy contexts. Pleased to know that extends. The powertools thing is too funny, though. Never even occurred to me that you could fanboy about that stuff, but I guess there are specs a-plenty to argue about.

If true, that's incredibly sad. If the only way a person finds validation and fulfillment is through the acquisition of objects, that in the grand scheme of things, their life is essentially meaningless.
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At the end of the day I think it's just a lot easier to buy something vs working hard, taking risks, failing, picking yourself back up, etc. So it will always be a tempting option for the vast majority of people. And I hope that there's at least some value or worth in it, even if it is extremely shallow. It's almost a philosophical question -- is it better to feel like you've "made it" on some level because you bought something, or to not attach importance to objects but also never experience that feeling at all. (Full disclosure: I like advertising work, and I think I rationalize it on some level by believing the first part -- for some people, owning the "best camera" is as good as it gets, may as well give them that. The counterargument is that if you weren't selling them sh*t maybe they'd actually do something meaningful with their lives instead. I honestly don't know the answer to that.)

Back to the cams -- I didn't realize until just now that the C200 doesn't have Timecode i/o. I assumed it was a standard feature on a $7k cam. This feature neutering (which I assume is based on protectionism) is very annoying.

AndreeOnline said:
I thought I was going to be able to muster the enthusiasm to watch this. But I just don't see how there could be a fruitful discussion between the 4 of them without constantly stepping on each other toes—which I'm just going to assume didn't happen.
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I was actually surprised at how willing they were to take some shots and admit shortcomings. The Canon rep flatout said they should have 10bit on the C200 and encouraged users to exert peer pressure.
 
dcoughla said:
I think it's more that all humans want the satisfaction of feeling special / like they're the best / like they belong. For most, their only shot at that is through buying things, because they lack the talent or ability or discipline to get there otherwise. So they attach a lot of importance to the tools, because they function as the sole connection to legitimacy. If you can't shoot the next great film, and you can't even buy the right camera, who are you? Nothing. No one wants to admit that, so they fight.
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Harsh but true - very well put.
 
dcoughla said:
I was actually surprised at how willing they were to take some shots and admit shortcomings. The Canon rep flatout said they should have 10bit on the C200 and encouraged users to exert peer pressure.
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OK, but talking about their own products is not quite what I meant. This is a head to head test. Did they have scenarios where they straight out said:

"Here, it's clear that brand X is significantly better than brand Y". And then let the brand Y guy just take it?

If you have a X vs. Y setup, for each test there has to be a winner. If you do a X and Y thing, it can be more of an informercial.

But you can't have X vs Y and then go full infomercial mode. But I haven't seen all of it, so this is not an accusation. I just didn't find it very realistic with that panel to announce a winner and a loser, despite the "vs" format.

Did they?
 
AndreeOnline said:
OK, but talking about their own products is not quite what I meant. This is a head to head test. Did they have scenarios where they straight out said:

"Here, it's clear that brand X is significantly better than brand Y". And then let the brand Y guy just take it?

If you have a X vs. Y setup, for each test there has to be a winner. If you do a X and Y thing, it can be more of an informercial.

But you can't have X vs Y and then go full infomercial mode. But I haven't seen all of it, so this is not an accusation. I just didn't find it very realistic with that panel to announce a winner and a loser, despite the "vs" format.

Did they?
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It did NOT feel like an infomercial/everybody wins kind of scenario to me. In fact I was picking up on a fair amount of defensiveness by the Canon rep in terms of body language/posture, so he certainly didn't feel like it was a softball session. But it wasn't as black/white as picking a winner vs loser or better/worse and putting an infographic on screen.

In terms of direct comparison, there were a few read-between-the-lines moments. For example, on the issue of Media, the Canon rep said market prices were fluctuating but he thought CFAST cards were ~$100 USD for 128g and then either the moderator or the Panasonic rep said something along the lines of "I don't think so"... That's about as contentious as things got, but the point was still made.

Similar with 10bit vs 8bit color, the cinematographer repeated a number of times that #s don't lie and the 10 bit is superior (and then the Canon guy was quick to qualify with "that doesn't always matter!"), as you would expect him to.

And at the end the moderator asked the cinematographer something along the lines of "Which camera would you choose?" and the cinematographer started with a diplomatic answer of "I don't usually get to pick my cameras, production does..." so the moderator changed to "When would you pick one camera over the other?" and TBH I don't even remember the answer.

Two things impacted it -- I think the cinematographer didn't want to ruffle any feathers if he didn't have to (the moderator almost seemed more willing to push it than anyone else), and I think the cameras are, in fact, fairly similar in performance. Bottom line: no real information (outside of a few comments about future plans) that couldn't be gleaned from other sources, so not must-watch material, but I learned a few things and was choosing between these two cameras at the outset and it did help my decision.
 
Just goes to show that a lot of sales reps know less than the brochures they hand out. The cheapest 128GB CFast at B&H is DOUBLE that price.

And I would have been surprised to see them come out and say Canon sucks, especially with Zacuto's relationship with Canon. Anyone remember the Canon C300/Zacuto ENG package that Canon was selling a few years ago? My sales rep at Abel managed to get me one of the surplus VCT Universal Pro shoulder mounts that they made especially for Canon.

It's not really in Zacuto's interest to ruffle the manufacturers feathers. And really, with the monetization on YouTube and everywhere else on the internet, it's becoming harder to get a completely unbiased, no-punches-pulled review of a piece of gear. One of the guys I shoot with is becoming a "sellout". Completely unrelated to TV and camera gear, but he's told manufacturers now that if they send him something and he reviews it, he will say if there are things he doesn't like/need improvement, but if he has to buy it with his own money and he doesn't like it, he will rip it apart in the review.
 
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Run&Gun said:
Just goes to show that a lot of sales reps know less than the brochures they hand out. The cheapest 128GB CFast at B&H is DOUBLE that price.
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The cynical part of me says he knew and was just hoping to get away with it... I did find 1 card from a no-name at that price, so technically... :)

And I would have been surprised to see them come out and say Canon sucks, especially with Zacuto's relationship with Canon. Anyone remember the Canon C300/Zacuto ENG package that Canon was selling a few years ago? My sales rep at Abel managed to get me one of the surplus VCT Universal Pro shoulder mounts that they made especially for Canon.

It's not really in Zacuto's interest to ruffle the manufacturers feathers.
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Yeah, I don't think anyone was expecting the same level of criticism you would get from an independent reviewer, but I still felt it was a decent outward attempt at objectivity.

And really, with the monetization on YouTube and everywhere else on the internet, it's becoming harder to get a completely unbiased, no-punches-pulled review of a piece of gear. One of the guys I shoot with is becoming a "sellout". Completely unrelated to TV and camera gear, but he's told manufacturers now that if they send him something and he reviews it, he will say if there are things he doesn't like/need improvement, but if he has to buy it with his own money and he doesn't like it, he will rip it apart in the review.
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Scummy. I'm hopeful that this kind of content starts getting regulated in the US like it does in parts of the rest of the world (mandatory disclosures if something is provided/paid for).
 
Actually I thought the Canon looked better. Better contrast, sharper, more neutral.
I personally feel the EVA1 looks a bit mushy and oversaturated.

I also thought Bruce Logan's grades were crap.
But then he's a DP, not a colorist.
 
Hmm... EVA1 owner here... the canon has a nicer image quality and rendition.

I am mentally separating that from the grade, saturation, etc. It's the way the edges render and resolve. The canon to my eye just has a softer more smoother/organic/filmic look to it that I find more pleasing. The EVA1 is much crisper and sharper.

Sad day, because I like the EVA1 feature set and specs a lot more.
 
yoclay said:
Actually I thought the Canon looked better. Better contrast, sharper, more neutral.
I personally feel the EVA1 looks a bit mushy and oversaturated.

I also thought Bruce Logan's grades were crap.
But then he's a DP, not a colorist.
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filmguy123 said:
Hmm... EVA1 owner here... the canon has a nicer image quality and rendition.

I am mentally separating that from the grade, saturation, etc. It's the way the edges render and resolve. The canon to my eye just has a softer more smoother/organic/filmic look to it that I find more pleasing. The EVA1 is much crisper and sharper.

Sad day, because I like the EVA1 feature set and specs a lot more.
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This is what makes a lot of these on-line tests, etc. so hard to judge a camera with. A bad grade can make a great camera look like junk and vise-versa(someone could go through some inordinate amount of post work that no one will take the time[or have the time] to do in the real world to get acceptable results from a lesser camera).
 
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