XDCAM vs DVCPROHD

F

fiercecurry

Well-known member
Sony just announced their new HD XDCAMS, the F350 and the F330.
Does anyone know how the XDCAM format and compression scheme compare to DVCPRO HD? Is it MPEG 2? If so is it the same or better than HDV type MPEG2?

From what is said in the press release these cams will offer three half inch CCD's, slow and fast motion, true 24p and 25p and 30p up to 1080. and record to discs that store 23.3 GB of data that only cost $30 each

These cameras are above the 10K category, the F330 costs $16,800.
Just curious if they are offering more than the HVX200 besides the obvious 1/2 inch chip and compatability with true cine style lens'.
 
From what I have read, XDCAM is ONLY a medium, and not a codec itself. You could have DVCPRO HD running into the XDCAM

Now XDCAM is 23.3gig. Could be interesting for HDV at 25mbits, but at DVCPRO HD it only 23 minutes of recording, and I dont think you can erase. So it might be cheaper than P2 Card in the short term, but I think P2 is still a better solution.

I guess someone could make a P2 -> XDCAM device, like the cineporter. But not sure since it write only (I think)

XDCam might be interesting in consumer product, but at the current past of it, Hard drive are currently better solutions, and offer more than ennuf recording time for mostly everyone.

You scared me when you posted that, as sony having got out something better, but after quick search, it came out to be nothing impresive (ouf... I better get my HVX200 quicky so I can't change my mind ehhe)
 
the name of the medium / disc is "Professional Disc" , based on cartridged discs that record via blu laser... so I haven't discovered yet any difference between Professional Disc and Blu Ray Disc...

So I wouldn't call XDCAM a medium, but a (HD-)system - a group of cameras running with Professional Discs. It's like the P2-group, but the medium is NOT XDCAM, but Professional Disc.

The format is as far as I know DVCAM and MPEG IMX.

interesting fact: someone told me that XDCAM has the pre-recording function too... but I imagine much more waste for this function than with P2... ;)
 
Wow. Just... wow. Has NBCShooter seen this?:thumbsup:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10014/xdcamhd_overview.shtml

So, XDcam HD. Is that better / worse / comparable to DVCProHD? How about to HDcam, or HDV? I'm just hearing about this now for the firs time, but it sounds like a winner (on paper, at least. The proof is in the pudding, and we'd have to see footage before any real debate can be staged.)

Let's see...

HVX with two 8GB cards:
$9,500 (roughly)
1/3" CCDs
Fixed Lens
16 minutes of DVCProHD at 1080/24p
Non-linear, tape-free workflow

XDcam HD f330:
$16,800 (MSRP? Street price?)
1/2" CCDs
Intercangeable pro lens
60 minutes of XDcam HD on one $30 disk
Non linear, tape-free workflow

Hmm. If I were investing in a camera, I'd probably give the f330 a long, hard look before going for the HVX. Between this and the RED camera speculation, I'd have a hard time picking something for indie filmmaking.

Thoughts? Comments?
 
fiercecurry said:
Is it MPEG 2?
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Yup!

If so is it the same or better than HDV type MPEG2?
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Better. Until 35 megabits. Higher and @progressive_mode, as Sony's noiseless as possible. And with that synthetic Sony's HD colors, too! It's not film but as new image aesthetics, I like it! :thumbsup:
 
the blue laser will not handle 100 Mbps the next...... 10 (?) years... the rate can just be doubled with double layer for the next generation and will reach about 72 Mbps after some years.... (it's announced for BD but still very early and prototypic) P2 has the 100Mbps NOW, so this is still a good point for P2

Nice to have some strong competitor beside P2 - that could give P2 a little kick.... especially for the capacity and price I hope...
 
jrv3034 said:
Between this and the RED camera speculation, I'd have a hard time picking something for indie filmmaking.

Thoughts? Comments?
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Tired of vapourware? :grin: It's just the next plot point... :laugh:
 
cici said:
the blue laser will not handle 100 Mbps the next...... 10 (?) years... the rate can just be doubled with double layer for the next generation and will reach about 72 Mbps after some years.... (it's announced for BD but still very early and prototypic) P2 has the 100Mbps NOW, so this is still a good point for P2
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Yeah, but DVCPro50 (50Mbps) coming out of an SDX900 will probably beat DVCProHD (100Mbps) from an HVX200. 2/3" chips, better glass, etc. Bit rate, like resolution, isn't everything. We'd have to look at the complete picture and see actual footage from both cameras to really determine which one's better: HVX200 1080 DVCProHD at 100Mbps, or f330 1080 XDcamHD at 35Mbps, but with 1/2"CCDs and pro lens.
 
cici said:
Nice to have some strong competitor beside P2 - that could give P2 a little kick.... especially for the capacity and price I hope...
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Seriously. Competition is great. Force prices down = more cameras are bought = everybody wins.

Does anyone have experience with XDcam SD cameras / footage? What's it like?
 
jrv3034 said:
Yeah, but DVCPro50 (50Mbps) coming out of an SDX900 will probably beat DVCProHD (100Mbps) from an HVX200. Bit rate, like resolution, isn't everything.
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I share this thoughts absolutely with you! - Bitrate is only one parameter and sorry for DVCPRO-HD, but perhaps it's a poor codification for a rich rate.... I mean perhaps another code could do better with 100 Mbps. Especially the size of the chip of the competitors might beat a HVX200 even with less than half of its bitrate - or did already in the tests of 4 (6) cams here.... On the other hand, P2 and 100Mbps is a BASE to start serious HQ HD. Perhaps a new format will be recorded in the future still on P2 cards but will give you 4:4:4 color sampling or high-speed frame-rates (500fps, sounds nice, no?) just ON THE BASE of a fast bitrate. I'm actually comparing the media here and one is BD (code-name PD :) ) the other is P2. One has 36 Mbps and will not reach the 72 Mbps till the next 2 years and the other already HAS 100Mbps and is just at the beginning.
 
jrv3034 said:
60 minutes of XDcam HD on one $30 disk

Hmm. If I were investing in a camera, I'd probably give the f330 a long, hard look before going for the HVX. Between this and the RED camera speculation, I'd have a hard time picking something for indie filmmaking.
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Like I said, you have to see the XDcam only as a 23gig storage device, write once and it over. 20 XDCam disk written and a P2 4gig card is payed. Now 30$ per disk might sound like a good deal for some, but for other (like me) it is not compared to the P2 cost.

You also have to think in term of how long a XDCam can live, 3, 4, 5 year, people will start trusting them like cd (was told 100year !!!) but finally had lost of data not long after. So no long term archival excuses please

Also like I said, 60 minutes on XDCam mean stream like the HDV format. if mpeg2 style encoding is what you like, then sure. But I know for sure I want a frame independant image.

I have read ennuf this site and others to know what I need. In term of media, P2 is the way to go (P2 memory & cineporter solution).

Also what will happen to a XDCam exposed to heat ? Like filming in hot summer. Will we have to protect the empty and burned Disk into a cold container ? Never leave a camera exposed to the sun because of the heat buildup...

P2 is a agresive approche, expensive rightnow, but what great with people like the cineporter maker, it wont stuck you to 1 option, but allow a transport protocol to different devices.

But like Barry said multiple, and countless time, there is camera for different senario, and the medium is one of the items you have to look at.
 
I used the XDCAM (SD) in my last job and it was a great way to shoot/edit. You can scroll through things you just shot like the HVX, the quality was great, and the discs are erasable/reusable something like 10,000 times!

The "decks" have ethernet ports so you can sit at a remote computer and pick all of your selects from the low rez proxy media that is recorded along with the hirez media.

The disc also has a 500mb folder on it that you can store ANYTHING else you want, like scripts, powerpoint files, graphics, edls, etc.
 
fiercecurry said:
Does anyone know how the XDCAM format and compression scheme compare to DVCPRO HD?
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XDCAM is the disc media. You can record various formats to XDCAM; the standard-def XDCAM camera can record DV or MPEG-IMX (50-megabit standard-def MPEG-2) to it; the high-def version adds 18, 25, or 35 megabit MPEG-2 4:2:0.

Is it MPEG 2? If so is it the same or better than HDV type MPEG2?
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It's three different modes, so it's worse, same, and better. There's 18 megabits for ultra-long recording time, there's 25 megabits which is the same as Sony HDV, and there's 35 megabits for better-than-HDV quality. Sony's previously indicated that they consider XDCAM HD to slot in-between HDV and HDCAM.

Just curious if they are offering more than the HVX200 besides the obvious 1/2 inch chip and compatability with true cine style lens'.
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Well, the $25,000 model offers full frame rates from 4 to 60, so that's something the HVX can't do. And it has interchangeable lenses and 1/2" chips too. Don't yet know what a decent lens for it will cost though; most decent high-def lenses start at around $12,000 and up. I also don't know if it can be used as a playback deck or not, or if you have to buy the $8,000 to $13,000 deck in order to be able to use it.

Sure looks interesting though. 35-megabit MPEG-2 is probably enough bandwidth to make a very nice picture, and 1/2" chips are better than 1/3". But it's not in the same price class as the HVX or other low-cost HD cameras.

It'll be interesting to see how it shapes up against the Infinity; Infinity is $20,000 and 2/3" chips but no variable frame rates. But Infinity does 720p, and I don't know if XDCAM HD does or not...
 
For me, it comes down to this:

P2 = solid state memory = no moving parts

That alone makes any P2 system far superior to me than any hard drive/optical disc/tape transport system that is going to wear down, be susceptible to dust and shock, temperature changes, and most importantly, repeated use. P2 certainly isn't perfect... we'd all like bigger capacities and a flexible form factor that can be better future proofed for upcoming hardware platforms, but given the option between solid state and anything else, and for me there's no question.

XDCAM looks cool, but it's definitely not the format for me.
 
jrv3034 said:
Does anyone have experience with XDcam SD cameras / footage? What's it like?
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Simon Wyndham, a frequent contributor here, is an XDCam owner in the UK, he can probably answer your questions.
 
I've seen it and it's very good. The compresion algorithyms used are slightly better than hdv and i though it looked much better at 25Mb than hdv. It's quite small and nicely weighted. Comes with a average HD lens with more available. Saw it at a trade show here in Australia. The rep played some footage he had shot the previous day at 35 and 25Mb in daylight, point and shoot style, and it looked good.
 
Barry_Green said:
Don't yet know what a decent lens for it will cost
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Canon's KH19x6.7 KTS $8,400.00

I also don't know if it can be used as a playback deck or not, or if you have to buy the $8,000 to $13,000 deck in order to be able to use it.
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The brochure states the same for both cams & playback decks: i-Link
 
Haakon said:
For me, it comes down to this:

P2 = solid state memory = no moving parts

That alone makes any P2 system far superior to me than any hard drive/optical disc/tape transport system that is going to wear down, be susceptible to dust and shock, temperature changes, and most importantly, repeated use. P2 certainly isn't perfect... we'd all like bigger capacities and a flexible form factor that can be better future proofed for upcoming hardware platforms, but given the option between solid state and anything else, and for me there's no question.

XDCAM looks cool, but it's definitely not the format for me.
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Well said, Haakon.

I don't trust laser type disc mechanisms myself, for the above reasons.

Having replaced a dozen optical burners myself throughout the years, it's not a medium that inspires confidence. Burn failures are fairly frequent and accepted as part of the technologie's limitations.

Ofcourse, Sony may have improved laser/disc technology, but the odds of burn failure is sill there, and I wouldn't bet doing a paid gig with it.
 
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