FS7: Would You Buy A Panasonic AU-EVA1?

Mitch Gross said:
But from Panasonic's perspective, the company manufactures many MFT lenses and most if not all of them would not cover the EVA1 sensor. So this is problematic for the less technically-minded clients out there. It might not be an issue for you but it's a huge issue for a manufacturer such as Panasonic.
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So what? This is a trivial problem to solve, and not a worthy excuse at all to for Panasonic to try and give.

Because all of Panasonics MFT lenses are electronic lenses, they can easily have the lens data there to recognise when it is mounted on a Panasonic EVA1 MFT and scale it by default (although would be nice to have an option buried deep into the menus, for this action to be turned off) to a 4K cut of the 5.7K sensor (which would match the MFT sensor the MFT lenses are designed for). So to have a 4K cut of the sensor... yup, that is plenty enough for many of our needs!
 
morgan_moore said:
Mitch
I think it is pretty patronising to use this understanding argument.

It would also seem poor strategy to not offer an "Eco system" Eva a cam - gh5 b-c cam for the wedding corporate guys who are exactly the market for sub $10k cams

I'm sure Sony sell a lot of a7 and othe emount compacts to fs7 5 owners.

Image circle is a photography 101

Canon sell efs Nikon sell dx - both lens sets can be used in error on full frame cameras

Lens Meta data can (and does) induce a crop mode in camera when a dx lens is used on a fx Nikon

Maybe educate your employers on lenses a bit - there are some good videos by Abel cine. Like "a lens is a lens is lens" :)

Etc.
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Very well said Sam!

Both Canon and Nikon (and Pentax!) have managed to exist for years and years without the world exploding, yet have been selling lenses and camera sensor sizes that are different from each other within their own ecosystem, and all working together in some form of another. (personally I don't like Canon's approach of disabling EF-S lenses from being used on a FF camera, and prefer Nikon's approach of allowing DX lenses to be used on their FX bodies but in crop mode)

And on the topic of ecosystem, I have seen first hand (as I'm sure many of us here have) the many many cases of A and B cam set ups which have been sold to people of a Sony FS7/FS5/FS700 A cam together with one of their mirorrless stills camera as the B cam.

Panasonic is missing out on selling heaps of EVA1/GH5 combos!
 
morgan_moore said:
Mitch
I think it is pretty patronising to use this understanding argument.

It would also seem poor strategy to not offer an "Eco system" Eva a cam - gh5 b-c cam for the wedding corporate guys who are exactly the market for sub $10k cams

I'm sure Sony sell a lot of a7 and othe emount compacts to fs7 5 owners.

Image circle is a photography 101

Canon sell efs Nikon sell dx - both lens sets can be used in error on full frame cameras

Lens Meta data can (and does) induce a crop mode in camera when a dx lens is used on a fx Nikon

Maybe educate your employers on lenses a bit - there are some good videos by Abel cine. Like "a lens is a lens is lens" :)

Etc.
Click to expand...

Canon EF-s lenses are not supposed to physically be able to mount to an EF mount still body(unless someone has modified it, etc.). EF-s has a shallower flange depth and some EF-s lenses have elements that protrude farther into the body when mounted and would collide with the mirror on an EF body. EF lenses, on the other hand as we all know, can mount of EF-s bodies.
 
EF-s does not have shallower flange depth. But some lenses may protrude further since the apsc mirror is smaller. Hence the incompatibility. Canon eliminates the liability of damage to FF mirror and cameras with EF-s lenses. That's smart...
Nothing to do with EVAs (EF/EF-s only) decision. That decision is about protecting the varicam line and keeping the manufacturing costs low. There will be a pro version with interchangeable mount- no doubt about it. EVA1 has to compete with FS7 and C200. EVA2 or pro will compete with c300- a notch higher...
 
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Run&Gun said:
Canon EF-s lenses are not supposed to physically be able to mount to an EF mount still body(unless someone has modified it, etc.). EF-s has a shallower flange depth and some EF-s lenses have elements that protrude farther into the body when mounted and would collide with the mirror on an EF body. EF lenses, on the other hand as we all know, can mount of EF-s bodies.
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Im sure you are right - never used a canon mount

Edit.. Im joking - but not EFS lenses - I own some DX and FX lenses and we have FF canon lenses here as my colleague uses a 1dx or something
 
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morgan_moore said:
Mitch
I think it is pretty patronising to use this understanding argument.

It would also seem poor strategy to not offer an "Eco system" Eva a cam - gh5 b-c cam for the wedding corporate guys who are exactly the market for sub $10k cams

I'm sure Sony sell a lot of a7 and othe emount compacts to fs7 5 owners.

Image circle is a photography 101

Canon sell efs Nikon sell dx - both lens sets can be used in error on full frame cameras

Lens Meta data can (and does) induce a crop mode in camera when a dx lens is used on a fx Nikon

Maybe educate your employers on lenses a bit - there are some good videos by Abel cine. Like "a lens is a lens is lens" :)

Etc.
Click to expand...
Do you know why the "A Lens is a Lens" video exists? Because I had to explain it to people dozens of times over. Some of these were even people on the CML who I was genuinely surprised didn't get it. I have worked in various levels of the market for many years and there are tons of people who have their focus on other areas and are not technically minded. For them these are issues that they do not particularly understand, often not because they cannot grasp it but simply because they are paying attention to other things. So for these people seeing a camera from Panasonic with a Micro 4/3" lens mount and lenses from Panasonic with the Micro 4/3" mount, they make a natural assumption that the two will work together. Panasonic is one of the founding members of the Micro 4/3" Consortium, and as such does not wish to do anything that would confuse the market.

Many people have asked why not just put a Micro 4/3" lens mount on the camera so they could use their current compliment of lenses. But their lenses won't work; they don't cover the sensor. The vast, vast majority of clients wanted a Super-35 sensor camera and that means those MFT lenses won't work, but then there are others who somehow feel "abandoned." For those people there is the incredibly powerful and affordable GH5, but for the professional Cinema line we went Super-35 because that is where the market is. And that means the MFT lenses won't work.

And that Lens is a Lens video is still ridiculously popular and I still find that I refer people to it all the time, so I don't think this is an issue that has been particularly conquered.
 
IronFilm said:
So what? This is a trivial problem to solve, and not a worthy excuse at all to for Panasonic to try and give.

Because all of Panasonics MFT lenses are electronic lenses, they can easily have the lens data there to recognise when it is mounted on a Panasonic EVA1 MFT and scale it by default (although would be nice to have an option buried deep into the menus, for this action to be turned off) to a 4K cut of the 5.7K sensor (which would match the MFT sensor the MFT lenses are designed for). So to have a 4K cut of the sensor... yup, that is plenty enough for many of our needs!
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And then the camera is doing something other than what many people purchased the camera to do. So it may work for you but not for them.
 
IronFilm said:
Very well said Sam!

Both Canon and Nikon (and Pentax!) have managed to exist for years and years without the world exploding, yet have been selling lenses and camera sensor sizes that are different from each other within their own ecosystem, and all working together in some form of another. (personally I don't like Canon's approach of disabling EF-S lenses from being used on a FF camera, and prefer Nikon's approach of allowing DX lenses to be used on their FX bodies but in crop mode)

And on the topic of ecosystem, I have seen first hand (as I'm sure many of us here have) the many many cases of A and B cam set ups which have been sold to people of a Sony FS7/FS5/FS700 A cam together with one of their mirorrless stills camera as the B cam.

Panasonic is missing out on selling heaps of EVA1/GH5 combos!
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Guys, I am explaining Panasonic's decision-making process. You may not like it, but that is what the process was.
 
optitek said:
EF-s does not have shallower flange depth. But some lenses may protrude further since the apsc mirror is smaller. Hence the incompatibility. Canon eliminates the liability of damage to FF mirror and cameras with EF-s lenses. That's smart...
Nothing to do with EVAs (EF/EF-s only) decision. That decision is about protecting the varicam line and keeping the manufacturing costs low. There will be a pro version with interchangeable mount- no doubt about it. EVA1 has to compete with FS7 and C200. EVA2 or pro will compete with c300- a notch higher...
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Hey, where were you seated at the product meetings? I don't remember seeing you there.

Don't make authoritative posts when you do not have the authoritative knowledge. It is your opinion, not a statement of fact.

The VariCam cameras are heavy duty machines, built hardy & tough to properly support the lenses that can go on a PL mount. One of the design parameters of the EVA1 was to make a camera that is small and lightweight enough to go on a gimbal or drone. For the mount to support PL glass would mean a bigger, heavier camera. Who knows what Panasonic may release in the future, but any camera from this company with interchangeable lens mount will also have the beef of construction to handle bigger, heavier glass.
 
IronFilm said:
Panasonic is missing out on selling heaps of EVA1/GH5 combos!
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Multiple lens mounts would likely confuse new customers ( especially those that know nothing about m4/3 cameras ), so it looks like Panasonic chose to keep things simple and only offer the popular Canon EF mount.

As a GH5 user with 8 native m4/3 lenses, I would have no problem buying new lenses for the EVA1. ( my m4/3 lenses are not designed to cover a S35 sensor )
 
an interchangeable mount would make the camera significantly heavier and 1-2K more expensive. Panasonic is aiming at bringing out a mini Varicam LT color wise that records 10 bit onto sd cards and will cost under 8k they chose the mount of a lens type that most users already own and a lot of lightweight pro offerings exist.
Just let them.
 
I would rather they get the firmware right to avoid what FS7 early adopters had to deal with the first 6 months after release.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Hey, where were you seated at the product meetings? I don't remember seeing you there.
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No but my pet fly was on the wall, listening ;-)
Wouldn't be the first or the last time that a manufacturer paced themselves. Canon, Sony (o a lesser degree) RED, (after RED ONE). Just the reality of tech products.
BTW Mitch OptiTron2 would be a perfect lightweight companion for EVA- why can RED do it but not Panasonic? You don't think focusing lenses is important?
;-) Just kidding- I know lens control is a low priority for a camera manufacturers- they need to sell cameras- not worry about focusing... althought it helped Sony tremendously when they realized lenses are important- sold millions worth more cameras. Panasonic- are you listening? Bueller, Bueller?
We are ready any time you are....
 
For some people, the EVA-1 may be the next step up and their A camera, but for a lot of people, and it reads this way to me, the EVA-1 is not only a "stand-alone" camera, but also aimed at being a good B camera to the VariCam LT, which is EF(and PL) mount. Short of having a swappable mount system, they made the next best move going EF, in my opinion.
 
Okay, apparently this is going to be a news flash for a lot of folks here, but -- big-dollar customers do not like lens adapters! And having watched the development of Panasonic products for 14 years, and being consulted on many new designs before they're introduced, I can tell you this with certainty: the company does not want their product to be made to look bad by someone using some cheap piece of crap on it. Harsh words, yes, but that is the way it is. Why do you think they came out with new batteries? Because cheap Chinese batteries burst into flames -- look at all the cases of Samsung phones and Boeing 787s and hoverboards bursting into flames. Panasonic didn't want their cameras to develop the reputation that they burst in flames just because someone used a cheapo battery in it.

And while I was a champion of the m43 mount on the AF100 because it provided (and still provides) for absolutely excellent flexibility, I also have about six different lens adapters and I can tell you -- some are good and some are trash. Why do you think I have three different Nikon adapters? Because the first two sucked. They flex on the mount. The lens can move on the mount, introducing wobble and focus shift. I finally got a Voigtlander (for about 4x as much money as my cheap mount) that is rock solid. And I have at least two if not three PL mounts, for the same reason.

Here's the important takeaway: cameras get a reputation very quickly. Producers and ad agencies get attached to a certain brand right away, or they "outlaw" that brand right away -- and it's dang near impossible to overcome that initial stigma. Panasonic is spending millions of dollars to bring this EVA-1 to market, and while I wasn't part of these discussions, I can nearly guarantee you that they're united in a decision that they'll be damned if they'll let the camera's reputation be damaged because some big shooter hired some dumbass camera tech who used a $19 Nikon adapter on a 4/3 mount and blew a shot because of it.

So they went with the safe choice. The most common interchangeable lens mount in the world, with the widest selection of lenses in the world. A choice I do not like; I hate the Canon EF mount, my lenses are Nikons and PL for a reason, but -- that's the way it is. I respect their decision. I would have preferred something else, but I understand their reasoning.

Now -- that said -- to me, here's the ultimate solution (which will NOT happen for EVA-1, but would be nice for EVA-2 or EVA-1A or whatever comes next): I'd like to see an interchangeable mount, even if it's something as simple as having an m4/3 mount underneath an EF mount. Make a removable EF mount that locks in firmly/rigidly/tightly, and when it's removed it reveals an m43 mount. People could use the rigid locking EF mount and never even know there was an m43 underneath it, and it would perform properly and protect the reputation of the camera. But for those of us willing to loosen some allen screws and remove the EF mount, there'd be an M43 under there. That would let us use our existing supply of m43 lenses, as well as adapt to anything else on the market. And yes, when using the M43 mount, the camera would be restricted to using a Four Thirds size sensor patch. Guess what? A 4/3-sized sensor patch extracted from the EVA-1's S35 sensor would produce an image sensor area of (approximately) 4,096 x 2160! (assuming EVA1's sensor is 5760 pixels wide and 24mm wide, that's 240 pixels per mm; a 4/3 sensor is 17.3mm wide so that'd be 4,152 pixels). That gives a lot of love to those of us who have a stockpile of m43 lenses, it increases the family compatibility with the GH4/GH5, it lets us use incredibly tiny lenses to strip the package size down even further, it gives us access to the mediocre but sorta-eng-ish 14-140 for those times when you need an autofocusing zoom lens...

To me that's the ideal solution. Use the camera as intended and you'll get it as the camera was designed to be used and experienced, but employ a little but of under-the-hood hot-rodding and you open up options for those of us who are willing to take the risks on ourselves.
 
Always thought EVA should be S35 with a m4/3 mount, & Panasonic should offer their own EF adapter so they wouldn't be reliant on 3rd Party manufacturers.
 
My imagination or is the consensus fairly strong on DVXUser... @BarryGreen...rather a brilliant idea on the buried mount...and we already know the m4/3 mount works on a s35 sensor...JVC does it and even crops down to s16 for some of those lovely s16 Cine zooms...anyway...probably the design will evolve over time, if the image and pricepoint is attractive...using the EF mount on the Varicam LT does not actually represent accurate market share....the EVA has the potential to sell far more, than the LT ever will...and why not as an Acam?...if the image is there, it is marketed as a Cine cam after all, and judging by the GH5 images in good hands, the EVA will probably turn out to be spectacular...so GH5 in better ergonomics would easily be up to the task of shooting a feature!
 
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