working with friends suuuucks - some advice needed

adamrahn

adamrahn

Well-known member
I was contacted by a friend recently for my company to do some production work, to which I said yes but that there were circumstantial things that needed discussing before I was locked in. After a few phone meetings with some senior execs and an account manager for the potential project it all seemed fine. what they needed was within the scope of what we provide, they didn't have any issues with rates, etc, and they asked for a RFP so I began drafting one up. Well tonight my friend suggested that I drop my rate to 40% of what I normally charge for editing. I'll never claim to be the best at what I do, but I'm damn good, and I think my meager rates (compared to seasoned pros, ad agencies, etc) are a steal for my experience, skill, and creativity. In the couple rare times that I have lowered my rates I learned, real effin' quick, what a mistake it was and that the people who ask for lower rates are the most demanding, hard-to-please people on planet Earth. Has anyone else ever had a friend ask this, or something similar, of you? and what did you do? My initial instinct is to explain to him either a) fine I'll do it at that price, but the work you get will reflect that rate, or b) no, I won't lower my rates. what other options do I have besides just bending over and taking these reduced rates up the pooper? I feel like anything I say will jeopardize this friendship. working with friends can be so amazing and rewarding, yet it somehow sucks most of the time. regardless of how this turns out I'm going to be wary of doing it ever again. lesson learned I suppose. thanks for any input or advice you guys have.


cheers,
Adam
 
adamrahn said:
[..]Well tonight my friend suggested that I drop my rate to 40% [..] My initial instinct is to explain to him either a) fine I'll do it at that price, but the work you get will reflect that rate, or b) no, I won't lower my rates.
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Well, I never did anything for cash that involved friends and all. All the little projects I did were a) personal or b) for local people (school dance and other shows) so I'm probably not the best person to give advices here. But what I do know, is that once you've lowered your rate/fees one time, you're done.

I'd go with the option b) I won't lower the rates: I do a great job, so you want something great, so you'll find yourself another guy for the job.

The other option a) lower rates will reflects in the rendered job. Just like: you get what you pay for. You want cheap, you'll get cheap (that's the harder part: you know you're able to do a great job, but being paid at a lower rate requires you to do an average job from what you're usually used to to). It could be an option to consider, but people will probably look at your job and by doing an average job for an average rate, some people will probably want to contract another guy regarding his work (being better in quality).

I think you should hold your position and don't lower your rates. If they don't want to pay, fine, they'll contract another guy for cheap, and the work will reflect being made cheap.
My 0.02¢
 
Stand your ground. Don't lower your rate, especially for friends. The only time I'll ever lower my rate is for a large company and to win over a long lasting client.

Kegan
 
I was (un)lucky enough to learn this kind of lesson a few years ago.
What I find disheartening is that your friend would even ask for that kind of discount. In my humble opinion it is disrespectful and says your time not valuable. I would politely refuse the offer and stick to my guns. Otherwise it opens the door for other people to take an unfair advantage. You are absolutely correct regarding people who are, for want of a better word, cheap. It might be a platitude on my behalf to say that a friendship jeopardized by you asking for a fair price in a professional situation needs to be looked at seriously as relationship other than a friendship. I think your "friend" should respect you for defending your value.
All the best in an unpleasant set of circumstances.
Sam.
 
If the execs didn't have any issues with your rates, and they haven't seen your RFP, what's happened?

Why did your friend suggest you drop your (hourly/daily?) editing rate? Either he thinks they'll take weeks doing it or .. if your friend works for the company and he suspects you might do it, watch out he doesn't then suggest you invoice your full rates and pay him a commission. Sorry but it happens.

Somewhere along the line a wheel is going to come off. I wouldn't do it. Good luck.

Cheers.
 
It sounds like perhaps your friend may quoted a an estimated rate to the execs to get you the gig without knowing the real rates and now finds himself stuck in the middle trying to save face?

Michael
 
hey guys thanks for all the responses so far. I've been thinking a lot more about it and I don't think I'm going to lower my rates. If that upsets my friend he knows some other people who will charge 2-5x what I do so he either takes my rate or pays out the ass for someone else. I just know the headache that comes with lowering them, and frankly I'm way too tired of the low-balling most of us have had to incur to get/keep gigs just because every kid and their grandma has a video function on their phone and it's as commonplace as pants. again, thanks for the advice, I truly appreciate it

:Drogar-Happy(DBG):

cheers,
Adam
 
A good friend of mine, and mentor, with decades of sales experience once said "Sell to your friend because your not going to sell to your enemies." I do have friend rates but not if I am working for a friend that works at a company but only if the friend owns the company or is an individual needing media services.

My friends advice works in this situation. Are you going to be able to charge more then your rate to clients that you have no connection?
 
if he owns the company - i'd drop it (not 40%!) if he doesnt - wtf? no 40% - is he gonna give you 40% of his raise after he beats you out of your fee and brags about it to the execs?
 
no he doesn't own the company, he's one of their lead designers - they are a graphics/print company with some major clientele (Coke, Target, etc), and this piece will be seen by the top 50ish execs in the company during a presentation (all the VPs, etc are meeting in Vegas for a conference). I'm considering a minor discount (~10%) if he can promise, in writing, additional work over the next year since this could lead to some really good, steady work, but even then I'm incredibly nervous about getting grandfathered in to some lowballed price range. has anyone done something similar before?
 
If you've been around long enough yup! you've done it before .. once, like the others say.

But I think the best of everybody, been one of my failings at times, so maybe he is trying to help you.

If you do offer a minor discount, 2 things. Watch out he doesn't want to drive it and with no? video production experience it goes belly up. I'd (smilingly) tell him that.

And most importantly DON'T - DO NOT - NEVER ask anyone to promise anything in writing like that. Sorry but it's kid stuff, the other execs find out about it and ..

Ask him have they got other quotes, DON'T ask what prices you'll be playing left field and it won't work .. but then yeah offer 10% once, but don't deliver 10% off the job, and make sure your tech specs are correct.

Cheers.
 
adamrahn said:
I'm considering a minor discount (~10%) if he can promise, in writing, additional work over the next year since this could lead to some really good, steady work, but even then I'm incredibly nervous about getting grandfathered in to some lowballed price range. has anyone done something similar before?
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The answer is - he cant guarantee that anyway. He's not the guy making final decisions - and best intentions often get left by the wayside.

How hungry are you? If you need the work maybe a 10% discount would ensure the job, whilst you still eat. 40% is a bit ridiculous.

Do the quote up, and be clear about your terms.
 
Honestly, you've said it yourself; when you lower rates, things get worse real quick.
It's not just by chance either:
  • You're selling yourself short: so you'll likely feel less motivated to do the work and ultimately just want to get it done. That's no way to work.
  • Client values your time less: which means they'll ask more of you and take longer to pay. Charging more would make your time more valuable to them
I'm not really clear on how your friend broached the topic to you of lowering your fee. Was he saying it was in your best interest, or was he just trying to get a better deal for his bosses (e.g. his best interest)?

In any case, I would say don't even drop it 10% until you turn in the quote/estimate and then consider dropping your fee if they have a problem with your quote. As far as I can tell, only your friend has suggested lowering your price, not the ones making the decision. If you submit your quote and they don't bat an eye, then everyone's happy. If they ask for a lower price, then you're entering into the phase that they refer to in the biz as negotiations. Not a bad place to be at all.

You've already answered your question yourself in your first post. Everyone else has chimed in agreement based on their experiences. Don't second guess yourself, and never sell yourself short.
 
Easy. You tell him you can't afford to subsidize him. Your plate is full. If you have enough work for (random figure), say $100/hr, and customers lining up the door, surely he can see that you're not going to suddenly get up and scream at every other customer - sorry, I can't take your business now, because I'm giving all my time to this buddy of mine for 40% less money!!! Ridiculous. And frankly, that's true in a way, even if you don't have a line of customers beating down your door. This is my stance - I do work for $X. If there is less than $X, I'd rather spend the time with my family or on my own projects - surely it's the same for him... I mean, if someone offers you $1 an hour to dig ditches, you'd rather sit down with a cold beer and talk to your friends, than break your back for funny money. It's beautiful here in Southern California and a lot of things to do - if you want me to work in a stuffy office for you, sweating over a computer, you'd better make it worth my while.
 
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