Workflow (good) News

Graeme_Nattress said:
No banding issues either. REDCODE BLACK is perfect.

Graeme
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... perfect? next thing you will claim is probably that shooting REDCODE BLACK is faster than realtime at infinte resolution, infinte framerate, no noise & banding - and even in the secret australian mode...

btw: the secret australian mode could be really useful. there are several shooting situtations (mirrors etc) were shooting 180 degrees rotated is useful.
 
You know Graeme, I feel really sorry for anyone who makes the mistake of jumping into the middle of this thread without starting at the beginning.

Jay
 
By the way graeme is avoiding any direct response to the more than well disposed to collaborate mr. Newman, it seems that Red is developing Redcode to be something like a Prospect 4k (of course included in the camera price)
 
Graeme_Nattress said:
The plan is to allow you to edit 2k from 4k media and match back - yes.

Graeme
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excellent. exquisite. both platforms? last apple left the buildings here in 99...
 
Graeme_Nattress said:
We're writing all our code cross platform. But you really should get some macs back - they're nice.

Graeme
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oh, i don´t have anything against macs - i have used them for 10 years or so and also the "OS X - classic", aka "NextStep" on PC in the nineties (with animo, if anyone is interested).

And FCP/shake (r.i.p.:( )/motion are a powerful combination with a good price/performance relation.

But:
Many, almost all of the high-end tools left apple years ago and are pc-only, be it windows or linux.
That would be:
NLE: discreet smoke, avid ds nitris, quantel eQ, sony XPRI... (pc only)
VFX: discreet flame, eyeon digital fusion, nuke.... (pc only)
3D Animation: softimage XSI, discreet 3ds max, renderers... (pc only)
D.I. : assimilate scratch, da vinci, discreet lustre, northlight etc.. (pc only)
as we operate some of those, this was the main reason why we (sniff) got rid of the macs in 99, later then of the sillicon graphics (doublesniff)

Now, as apple is building pcs we might be buying one/some, but i wouldn´t know a single software i would miss right now being a house with >20 pcs here on the mac, but we would miss dozens of applications which aren´t available on os x...

we were thinking about buying a mac for fcp (i have a copy on the shelf here), as we wanted to offer low-price NLE besides our more expensive suites, but then came premiere pro and so the only reason was nullified.

sound dept. is pc only as well, they left apple in ~2003, cubase SX and nuendo over there.

But i have to say that the pc-macs have a good price-performance ratio! And one shouldn´t care about the OS one is using, as long is functional, one should care about the appication. Heck, we still have three discreet edit 6.0 running here as offline NLEs... on Windows NT 4.0.
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
Ok I may be stepping on a land mine here, and I hope I don't cause too much trouble, but I wanna ask this question.

RedCode is a RAW codec that CURRENTLY requires RedCine to be developed an then output to the codec of choice in your system for editing.

Cineform is also a RAW codec that is able to be edited directly from an edit system like Premiere and then output and/or developed.

So is there a way that Cineform Codec could also be in RED so that we would be able to output to a format that is ready to edit?

I am NOT saying that they are the same. To my knowlege REDCode is 4k and Cineform RAW is 2k, so it's not like one can replace the other.. But it is an interesting concept for adding another measure of choice to those of us who are shooting.
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Small correction; CineForm RAW is not resolution restricted. You can easily put 4.9k images into CineForm RAW (and I have.) However, most of the NLEs are limited to 4096 pixels (or lower), so I have "only" played back 4k RAW with a dissolve and color correction in real-time. This was on a Woodcrest Xeon, under Premiere Pro 2.0; dual stream 4k HDR RAW is fun to edit. Even more RT streams when using wavelet multi-res techques. As for what we can do directly with a Red camera is under consideration (and under NDA), but we intend to allow end users to work with Red footage, as we believe our RAW editing solution will be unique for sometime, and remain the performance leader for long after competitive RAW solutions are marketed.
 
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Mr. Newman,

i admire your work because you have shown a superior and real indy product.. besides your inputs very well balanced and truly helpful.. i'd like to know if is there any possibility to edit 4K with your workflow (why not?) from the redcode (cc and grading work as well) using any one of the NLEs of today?..

thx
 
filmmaker1977 said:
Mr. Newman,

i admire your work because you have shown a superior and real indy product.. besides your inputs very well balanced and truly helpful.. i'd like to know if is there any possibility to edit 4K with your workflow (why not?) from the redcode (cc and grading work as well) using any one of the NLEs of today?..

thx
Click to expand...

NDA prevents me discussing redcode as an editing format. We intend for conversion from redcode to CineForm RAW will be available the day the very first camera becomes available. How integrated / smoothly this works is a business issue, not a technical one. We have 4k editing working day under Premire Pro 2.0. Today, if you have a 4k Dalsa project, or 4k film scan, we can make your editing much easier. We active working on FCP support, but real-time effects and transitions are reprevented by Apple (and resolution limitation with FCP.) Avid closes their world off to protect (their logic is flawed) their dwindling business. Sadly so much of high-res HDR workflows are impacted by business decisions not technical.
 
No offense David, but I see no need for Cineform in the RedCode future.
If Redcode Raw is as streamlined as Red says it is, and we have no reason to think otherwise, then why transcode it. Once Red has it's codec together It will be plenty easy to cut 4k using even existing FCP and Avid systems. (They have quoted this as their goal.)
Unfortunately Premier is just not a substantial player at this level of production.
 
evinsky,

You shouldn't shallow the Kool Aid until you know what is in it. My NDA with Red prevents me (today) explaining why I just stated "we believe our RAW editing solution will be unique for sometime, and remain the performance leader for long after competitive RAW solutions are marketed." Red is a camera vendor, it is impractical for them to compete in every market area. Just we have enhanced post solutions for Sony, Canon, Panasonic and JVC, we happen to have even more technology for RAW workflows (patents pending.) Red has a long way to go, particularly for FCP and Avid, which actively prevent third party codecs for tight integration, and these tools have no concept of RAW. This isn't Red's fault, this is Apples and Avids. There is room for other tools vendors, as this only helps Red. Just as Red might provide lens solutions, they will not put Cooke out of business, Cooke's business will likely grow. We expect our business to grow as a result of Red.
 
"Once Red has it's codec together It will be plenty easy to cut 4k using even existing FCP and Avid systems"

i'm not so sure it works that easy .. from my observation (don't like premiere as a NLE) ... i have to say that cineform prospect HD is more then just a codec ( guessing it must install it's own engine within NLE to handle effects,CC playback).. i have some film scanned 2k using cineform codec .. they playback around 1-3 fps in sony Vegas ( which is my NLE of choice, and is 8bit )) , less then 1 fps in combustion .. windows media player ?? now drop the same 2k clip into premiere (with prospect HD) and you have 24fps playback ..add a CC = 24fps ( and that's 10bit) ...

guessing i would assume just because you have the red codec in your system doesn't mean your NLE can use it for real time CC,FX's playback ..
 
donatello said:
... guessing it must install it's own engine within NLE to handle effects,CC playback..
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Donatello,

That is correct. We replace much of Premiere's playback engine with our own. We can do more tricks as we control this engine. We are software masquerading as a hardware accelerator.
 
AH HA!!! Got you David

AH HA!!! Got you David

How innocently you have walked into my trap Mr. Newman!!! My post was crafted over a number of years to draw you out and confirm my suspicions..

SO NOW!! DENY IT IF YOU DARE! WHERE WERE YOU ON THE NIGHT OF THE 15th..

Ok ok.. Enough of that crap.. Seriously.. Your mention of an NDA says the following things:

"I am speaking with RED"
"There is talk of working together in some form"

Jim's very business model for the camera was to make it 3rd party friendly. He wants the camera, hardware, and perhaps some lenses, but knows that the more 3rd party vendors get involved, the stronger the camera will become. I have no doubt this extends to software.

My feeling is that his reason for REDCode is this:

He want's to insure that RED has provided a turnkey solution to those who do not have any more dough to invest in post production beyond what they already have (Which is why RedCode goes down to 480p). They want to protect that beautiful picture they are making. By doing their own codec they can say "Guys use what you want, but it should look at LEAST this good."

Ok that said, it certainly does not mean they won't welcome something better. REDCode will be wonderful, but I think there is room for 3rd party development.

Keep in mind folks, how cool would it be if you could upload a codec into the camera that is part of an entire post production chain? Software, hardware, etc. I believe what Jim wants for hardware add ons, he will also want for software.

I have no facts to base this on, other than the fact that I caught Jim Newman RED handed!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Jay

I'm just playing here David.. Graeme started it.
 
My understanding is that REDCODE is for capture, storage and preliminary correction. It is then encoded out to a working codec for use in your NLE. CineForm RAW looks to be a really good option for that and I am glad that they’ve entered the arena.
 
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