F65: Woody Allen and Vittorio Storaro go for the F65 on Woody's first digital film

[DLD]

I don't understand if there truly are people who think digital has defeated film...

I think you can start with ex-Kodak management. They believe it to the last man.

(OK, I kid ... sort of).

More seriously, having looked at some of those Turkish F65 clips, it does look more "video'ish" in spots but that just might be perfectly acceptable to many. They could have, obviously, emulated a 'film look" but chose to keep it like that. Hypothetically, without resorting to the digital manipulation, they could have scanned the final edit onto a 35mm film and then back into digital. Then I doubt anyone could tell which is which.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Are you not at Abelcine anymore? I've watched lots of your, Andy's, and Ian's Youtube how-to videos, great info you guys offered. What was the F65 inventory like at Abelcine, was it always on special order? I don't imagine Sony went all-in and manufactured F65s like crazy, so I'm wondering what inventory looks like in general. With computing power and storage getting faster, cheaper, smaller, if they still have new inventory burning a hole in their books, it would be pretty great for indie companies if they have a firesale; seeing as used package deals go somewhere mid $20k USD, if the new inventory dropped price, it'd be interesting to see how used prices drop... if at all, since I'm not sure I'd choose new over used if the price drop was only a few grand anyway. Just a seeing shapes in the cloud, but it would be my dream camera. And can you explain how Sony gets the 6gbps data rate on the S55 cards? Red's mini mags are 2.4gbps, so I think Sony's are the fastest cards I've seen, but $10k for the 1TB S55 card is just awful. I'm wondering if they did something special that merits that price, or if it's just markup tacked onto their flagship back when they thought they could sell units at $100k+.

As my signature states, I'm the Director of Communications at Convergent Design. I've been here for two years now.

I don't think it appropriate for me to talk about my former employer's inventory practices or Sony's pricing strategies. The memory cards for the F65 are some seriously impressive technology that can accept data at rates far faster than anything else in the industry other than Phantom camera CineMags (and if you want to see expensive...). Such advances in technology does not come cheap.

 

[Mitch Gross]

In my opinion, this is exactly Sony's problem and why ARRI is dominating. ARRI clearly has a plan. Sony seems to be just throwing things at a wall to see if anything sticks and if it doesn't they don't behave like they have the ability to make it stick. They will just give up and move on.


The Alexa has arguably been the “same” camera since it was released 6 years ago. ARRI just keeps making it better. I know they can do that because the Alexa sold well in the first place. But this is because ARRI is a company with a plan and an understanding of the market.


Sony will most likely just release a replacement for the F65 instead of trying to correct their mistakes. That is typical Sony. But honestly, where can you realistically go from the F65? I'm not talking about headline grabbing specs like 8K or 16K regardless of monitors or other equipment having been released or announced for that. Most mainstream movies are still not finished in 4K. I'm talking about a camera for today.


So where do you go from the F65? Sure they could make it smaller and even use the same sensor. Or they could come in with a brand new sensor in 65mm and limit it to a niche market. But a better option would be instead of spending the money in the R&D, they could just spend much less and improve what they already have. I know it will probably never never happen. But to me it makes more sense at this point.


Because the F65 is still the top of the line. It is still technically above all cameras. It's a bit like having a car with 1000BHP when the second nearest model has 700BHP and releasing a car with 1300BHP, just to compete with yourself. It's obvious that lack of BHP is not the reason the F65 didn't sell well. So making another with more BHP in hopes to sell more doesn't seem any sensible. And if they are not going to massively improve on the specifications, which at this point seems daunting, they might as well stick with the F65. If they would bring to market a (miraculous) CCD based camera producing real full RGB, with 15-stops of dynamic range, capable of real 8K and all in a F55 sized body for the price of a F55, then yes. But we know it's not happening and it would take something like that to be a real improvement over the F65.


Grug's idea of a new recorder is great. I agree the F65 is too deep in the ditch for a simple firmware update to save it. But a new and better supported recorder, even if a SR-R4R, with not only the raw and SR it offers now but also with ProRes and XAVC as Grug suggested could indeed make a difference. It would effectively turn it into another camera. Add some of the features lacking on the body to the recorder and it would immensely improve the whole camera. It may not do a thing if the F65 had been surpassed in specifications. But it still hasn't.


Another thing which this unseen from Sony move could do is inspire more confidence in the Sony brand. People are fine investing such high sums in the Alexa because they know ARRI won't just have a knee jerk reaction and drop it at the first hiccup or market adversity they find. Based on Sony's track record, if the Alexa was a Sony camera they would have released a whole new camera instead of just the highly successful 4K upscalling update. And they would have left all prior Alexa owners out in the cold without hesitation.


They did the same thing with the F35. They had big plans to update it, which would definitely have extended the camera's shelf life. Maybe even allowed them an extra year or two to think the F65 through and not make the mistakes they have made. But a knee jerk reaction to the RED One and Alexa made them just drop the F35 like a basket of angry bees and prematurely release the F65. Leaving all the people who paid 200K+ for the F35 out to pasture. And we know how well that worked for them.


It would be great to see a wind of change coming from Sony for a..uh..change. Maybe they should hire some of the Panavision team who worked with them in the Genesis/F35 project. Because it's obvious all their money, infrastructure and technical know-how is not helping them any when a “small” boutique company like ARRI is moping the floor with them.

If the Alexa had flopped for whatever reason, then ARRI would not have evolved the product as it did. They had a successful platform that they built upon. But if something doesn't stick one must move on; that's common good business sense. The ARRI D21 never sold in quantity, and the company stopped development on the product.

It's easy to play armchair quarterback. Just remember that these cameras are years and years in development. Once the thing comes to market it could take years to implement any lessons learned from its impact.

 

[Mitch Gross]

I don't understand if there truly are people who think digital has defeated film.

I have seen some Alexa films and red films I thought were film, so who knows.

Also I think mechinical shutter is interesting, but again I don't know anymore especially now that most theatres are digital projection.

Digital has defeated film as a business model, and the manufacturers of cameras are businesses so they must pay attention to that. But you rather contradict your first statement with your second. If you as an experienced cinematographer cannot tell the difference between film and digital on some movies, then the question is effectively answered. That's the Turing Test for motion picture production.

As for a mechanical shutter, it is on the F65 to eliminate rolling shutter artifacts and has nothing to do with digital projection. I can also tell you that the unique architecture of the F65 sensor has such an incredibly fast read/write cycle that it is nearly impossible to create rolling shutter artifacts even with the mechanical shutter disengaged. As the product manager, I built my Shutter-O-Rama rolling shutter test demo system, which was a large box fan on a dimmer. It'd easy to make a Red or an Alexa (especially an Alexa in 4:3) show a rolling shutter artifact. It was a struggle to do it with the F65.

 

[Mitch Gross]

In my opinion, this is exactly Sony's problem and why ARRI is dominating. ARRI clearly has a plan. Sony seems to be just throwing things at a wall to see if anything sticks and if it doesn't they don't behave like they have the ability to make it stick. They will just give up and move on.


The Alexa has arguably been the “same” camera since it was released 6 years ago. ARRI just keeps making it better. I know they can do that because the Alexa sold well in the first place. But this is because ARRI is a company with a plan and an understanding of the market.


Sony will most likely just release a replacement for the F65 instead of trying to correct their mistakes. That is typical Sony. But honestly, where can you realistically go from the F65? I'm not talking about headline grabbing specs like 8K or 16K regardless of monitors or other equipment having been released or announced for that. Most mainstream movies are still not finished in 4K. I'm talking about a camera for today.


So where do you go from the F65? Sure they could make it smaller and even use the same sensor. Or they could come in with a brand new sensor in 65mm and limit it to a niche market. But a better option would be instead of spending the money in the R&D, they could just spend much less and improve what they already have. I know it will probably never never happen. But to me it makes more sense at this point.


Because the F65 is still the top of the line. It is still technically above all cameras. It's a bit like having a car with 1000BHP when the second nearest model has 700BHP and releasing a car with 1300BHP, just to compete with yourself. It's obvious that lack of BHP is not the reason the F65 didn't sell well. So making another with more BHP in hopes to sell more doesn't seem any sensible. And if they are not going to massively improve on the specifications, which at this point seems daunting, they might as well stick with the F65. If they would bring to market a (miraculous) CCD based camera producing real full RGB, with 15-stops of dynamic range, capable of real 8K and all in a F55 sized body for the price of a F55, then yes. But we know it's not happening and it would take something like that to be a real improvement over the F65.


Grug's idea of a new recorder is great. I agree the F65 is too deep in the ditch for a simple firmware update to save it. But a new and better supported recorder, even if a SR-R4R, with not only the raw and SR it offers now but also with ProRes and XAVC as Grug suggested could indeed make a difference. It would effectively turn it into another camera. Add some of the features lacking on the body to the recorder and it would immensely improve the whole camera. It may not do a thing if the F65 had been surpassed in specifications. But it still hasn't.


Another thing which this unseen from Sony move could do is inspire more confidence in the Sony brand. People are fine investing such high sums in the Alexa because they know ARRI won't just have a knee jerk reaction and drop it at the first hiccup or market adversity they find. Based on Sony's track record, if the Alexa was a Sony camera they would have released a whole new camera instead of just the highly successful 4K upscalling update. And they would have left all prior Alexa owners out in the cold without hesitation.


They did the same thing with the F35. They had big plans to update it, which would definitely have extended the camera's shelf life. Maybe even allowed them an extra year or two to think the F65 through and not make the mistakes they have made. But a knee jerk reaction to the RED One and Alexa made them just drop the F35 like a basket of angry bees and prematurely release the F65. Leaving all the people who paid 200K+ for the F35 out to pasture. And we know how well that worked for them.


It would be great to see a wind of change coming from Sony for a..uh..change. Maybe they should hire some of the Panavision team who worked with them in the Genesis/F35 project. Because it's obvious all their money, infrastructure and technical know-how is not helping them any when a “small” boutique company like ARRI is moping the floor with them.

I think it is also important to note that a camera is not just a sensor and its specs. There is a whole lot more to it than that, and that's before you get to the post workflow part of it. The level of control available and the way that control is accessed is very important, as are other user interface issues. The F65 is very specific in what it will and will not let the operator do and how such controls and initiated. So it cannot simply be accessorized to change that. It is at the core of the deign of the camera.

Sony has issued several updates for the F65 and expanded its use considerably. But the architecture of the camera will only allow them to go so far.

Please note that I am not saying that the F65 is a bad camera. It is not. But it is a specific camera, one that is not comfortable to use outside of certain work environments.

 

[Viddovation]

Mitch is addressing these points with more eloquence than I probably can.

Digital already killed film - for better and worse. Yes, some people will continue to shoot film, but mainstream audiences can't tell and don't care whether content is acquired digitally or on celluloid. With less people shooting film labs have shut down and variety of film stocks has reduced. These factors end up making it even more impractical for productions to consider film, and the cycle chases it's own tail.

Sony is a much larger and broader empire than Arri or Red. They provide such a vast quantity and variety of image sensors for a myriad of applications. Some of their best they reserve for in house Sony branded cameras, but they have plenty of sensors that are sold to other manufacturers for integration in non-Sony brand imaging devices. This simply isn't true of Red or Arri - both of which are focused far more specifically on the cinematic industry. Sony has a business case to always be developing the absolute cutting edge in imaging technology. Whatever aspects of a sensor they can improve on, they can likely find some market that can use said feature. And they have a business case to market flagship level cutting edge technologies, boasting the most impressive specifications possible. In that way, I would suggest that the F23, the F35, the F65 - they're ambassadors of Sony's chipmaking capabilities. And the F23 and F35 were never priced to be available to anyone but rental houses and razor focused high end production houses. I'm sure that Sony would love to be selling their cameras the way the Alexa sells - but I think they approach flagship digital cinema from a perspective of the engineering cutting edge, and lack Arri's willingness to prioritize workflow over sheer engineered might.

Grug's notion that an alternate box could be made for the F65 is a good point - and I expect the body was built to release the recorder so such things could be possible - but it's a risk/reward and profit motive thing. Sony nearly released an SRMemory recorder to dock to the F35, but it never materialized. The SR-R1 for the F3 is probably 90% of the product the SR-R3 would have been - lacking only the docking port to the F35 and a minimal amount of specific firmware coding (I say this with confidence as I've personally reverse engineered and emulated the Sony F35 dock protocol, and made it talk to the SR-R1, albiet in a roundabout manner). They simply determined they wouldn't have sold enough units to make it worth the bother. Sony can afford to take risks on over engineered flagship products because of how it's larger business model is built. But that doesn't mean they'll keep chasing a dud. They'll move to the next cutting edge - even at the risk of being on the bleeding edge.

 

[DLD]

... They'll move to the next cutting edge - even at the risk of being on the bleeding edge.

The "bleeding edge" isn't likely to hurt them much here. A lot of the tech they developed for F65 has already passed down to the lower priced products. They, obviously, wish they could have sold more individual units but they've probably sold whatever they had made anyway. It just took them longer than anticipated.

 

[GordanWillis]

Well said James and Mitch - Sony is a giant, giant empire of TVs, cameras, lenses, video games, music, films, projectors, and so many other things. I think Sony at this point, as a armchair quarterback, probably stopped going for the high end and is focused on the medium end for cinematography, as seen by the FS7 being a $8k camera capable of images to get pretty close to the Sony F55, which I think is around $30k or so. I am curious how much they make from the fs7 vs f65 - which I assume is a lot more since everyone and their mother is now shooting with the FS7.

There is also Panasonic which was in the high end cinema game with the Varicam back when I was starting out professionally and kind of dropped out until recently, and the Varicam 4k doesn't seem to be lighting the world on fire the way Arri has been continuing.

Even it seems Red is failing to Arri - I mean, I don't have sales numbers, just by seeing what cameras are being requested by producers or what my DP friends are shooting on or what cameras I see going out when I do check outs at rental houses across the country and world and even in Hollywood what DP is using what camera and if they switch.

I've seen a lot of switching from Red to Alexa but not the other way around, so anyway - and I'm not really into shooting on Alexa - I still don't like the highlight rolloff - it feels weird to me - but then again some of the most beautiful films I have seen recently are digital.

Yes I failed the Turning test at the movie theatre with trailers many times so maybe film is just a concept in my head.
I always try to make my digital work look like film - the grain, texture, randomness - and I hope other people do that as well.

That DPs still respect all that film brought and that colorists work with DPs to make things look as organic and beautiful or just dreamlike as they can and they don't fall behind.

Again and again for me, highlight rolloff, natural sharpness, and color fidelity are my big loves in a camera. Sensativity is not important to me past 400-500 ASA - even on docs - I don't like how the night looks at 1000 ASA or higher - it doesn't feel right to me. And resolution - well shooting 5k and 6k on the red - looks too weird to me - but maybe it's more than resolution that makes it all look weird - it's the compromises the tech has to make to compress that big of a frame into their redcode thingy.

Anyway, I'm just happy that producers ask me, "what camera do you want to shoot on" and no longer say, "can you shoot this on red" or "can you shoot this on alexa" and I go with them and we work through what we think the best camera is for the job. Sometimes it is alexa and sometimes it is a Sony A7S or Sony F35 or FS7 or its all three of them and thank god for that. The era of the producer and his recommendation of camera seems to be over. The insanity went away and a camera returns to just being a tool to do the job, just as not every lens set is the right one for the job. Sometimes anamorphics are nice, sometimes spherical glass is nice.

 

[Mitch Gross]

FYI, the Panasonic VariCam35 is making excellent inroads on high end production. It's still fairly new so much of the work has not yet made it to distribution, but they are doing well.

 

[Piszkos Fred]

But the Studio does have a rotating mirror shutter too, doesn't it?

 

[Mitch Gross]

The Alexa Studio offers a rotating mirror shutter than can be disengaged. There are several other Alexa models that offer 4:3 with no mechanical shutter. It is easy to demonstrate rolling shutter artifacts on 4:3 Alexa with no mechanical shutter involved.

 

[Aaveum]

If the Alexa had flopped for whatever reason, then ARRI would not have evolved the product as it did. They had a successful platform that they built upon. But if something doesn't stick one must move on; that's common good business sense. The ARRI D21 never sold in quantity, and the company stopped development on the product.

It's easy to play armchair quarterback. Just remember that these cameras are years and years in development. Once the thing comes to market it could take years to implement any lessons learned from its impact.

Although the first half of your reply is redundant, since I had said myself that ARRI could only continue to develop the Alexa because it sold well in the first place, I understand and agree with your point on development cycles. But the proposal was an improvement on already existing hardware rather than building a whole new version of the F65. If they would only get the SR-R4 to record XAVC and ProRes and nothing else it would already have done a lot for the F65. Specially if they had done that when they released the F55.


The D21 was an adjusted D20. With the D20 being rental only, I always felt both were more of an experiment or “feeler” than anything. I don't believe ARRI tried really hard to sell D21s. I always had this impression that it was more intended as a testing mule of sorts than anything. They learned a lot from it and used that to develop the Alexa.


As for the armchair quarterback remark, I don't speak as an engineer or propose to teach Sony how to make their products. I speak as the end user who will use them. As that, I believe it's within our right to suggest, complain and analyze. I couldn't care less how they build them as long as they do what I need. Conversely, I couldn't care less if they are cutting edge if they won't do what I need.

 

[Aaveum]

I think it is also important to note that a camera is not just a sensor and its specs. There is a whole lot more to it than that, and that's before you get to the post workflow part of it. The level of control available and the way that control is accessed is very important, as are other user interface issues. The F65 is very specific in what it will and will not let the operator do and how such controls and initiated. So it cannot simply be accessorized to change that. It is at the core of the deign of the camera.

Sony has issued several updates for the F65 and expanded its use considerably. But the architecture of the camera will only allow them to go so far.

Please note that I am not saying that the F65 is a bad camera. It is not. But it is a specific camera, one that is not comfortable to use outside of certain work environments.

Sure. A camera is a whole system. But since the F65 is a two-piece design, that leaves an opening to more easily upgrade it. Look what the use of a 7Q recorder can do for the F35. It breathes new life into it when it would definitely have expired if everybody was still depending on the clunky SRW1.

I believe if Sony wanted they could easily improve the F65's situation and with not a whole lot of effort. But before Sony can correct anything, the main problem is to get Sony to admit they made a mistake in the first place. Here in my opinion and based on their track record lies the real problem.

Although some of their moves with the F5/F55 line surprised me. Such as the ProRes board. So maybe there is still hope.

 

[Viddovation]

As for the armchair quarterback remark, I don't speak as an engineer or propose to teach Sony how to make their products. I speak as the end user who will use them. As that, I believe it's within our right to suggest, complain and analyze. I couldn't care less how they build them as long as they do what I need. Conversely, I couldn't care less if they are cutting edge if they won't do what I need.

I get that. We all make decisions based on a combination of performance capability and ease of use. Right now, if you have the budgets the camera that best hits that mark is the Alexa. If you have a smaller budget a common choice is Red, although those in this forum would likely argue the F23/F35 give you that level of performance at an even lower pricepoint. Sony's flagship priorities are engineering aligned, and that's something they ought to think about more carefully, but I think it's just in their DNA as a company.

 

[Aaveum]

Digital has defeated film as a business model,

And that is the only arena it has defeated film from a theatrical production stand point. The transition to digital is again about money. If itwasn't cheaper few would be shooting on it. Keep in mind faster andsimpler is a form of cheaper.


I don't think digital looks as good andquite honestly I think it never will. Because they have stoppedcaring. They are no longer trying.


As for an audience not being able totell the difference, there is a difference between not knowing betterand thinking it doesn't make a difference.

 

[GordanWillis]

I am an armchair quarterback. I think still the DP, colorist and editor matter more in shooting digital than film with a crappier DP, colorist, and editor - I think the magic of film is skintone, resolution, highlight handling, motion and randomness of the dancing frame.
I want to make a plug in to make our footage dance more.
Who is with me?

 

[Aaveum]

I get that. We all make decisions based on a combination of performance capability and ease of use. Right now, if you have the budgets the camera that best hits that mark is the Alexa. If you have a smaller budget a common choice is Red, although those in this forum would likely argue the F23/F35 give you that level of performance at an even lower pricepoint. Sony's flagship priorities are engineering aligned, and that's something they ought to think about more carefully, but I think it's just in their DNA as a company.

There are certainly other options. But the conversation is about the F65 unpopularity specially as compared to the Alexa, the reasons for that and what could be done about it.

I'm certainly among those who would vouch for the F35 over the Alexa though. Not considering infrastructure, so purely “considerational”, unless shooting at night without a proper lighting package or being forced by a producer, I would always choose a F35 shot to 12-bit 444 over an Alexa, at any budget. If I'm to bother with another camera it would have to be the F65. At least it's more of a real upgrade and actually offers something tangible on top. An Alexa would only come into play if I was after it's specific looks or the reasons above.

Don't get me wrong. I believe the Alexa and the F35 have the best out of the box looks. I just don't think the Alexa is any real upgrade over the F35. It's a trade off between the two. In a way the same is true with the F65. But it offers more of what I don't have in the F35 than the Alexa.

I definitely agree with you that Sony seems to prioritize engineering over sensitive industry needs. Which is their choice and fine. But if that is to continue they should just give up on the theatrical segment and focus on broadcast, TV and the rest with products such as the F55, F5 and FS7.

If they were not really trying ARRI could not leave them eating dust.

 

[Aaveum]

I am an armchair quarterback. I think still the DP, colorist and editor matter more in shooting digital than film with a crappier DP, colorist, and editor - I think the magic of film is skintone, resolution, highlight handling, motion and randomness of the dancing frame.
I want to make a plug in to make our footage dance more.
Who is with me?

I agree with you on what makes film more appealing. But the main thing for me is the depth. It's also where the Alexa and specially F35 and Genesis have other digital cameras beaten. The jury is still out for me on the F65. But none of them matches the depth film can reproduce. The tonality. Digital just looks washed out in comparison. Sometimes sharper or more "contrasty", but "washed out" nonetheless. It just doesn't have the depth.

 

[Mitch Gross]

I didn't mean to insult anyone with the "armchair quarterback remark," rather to instead provide some insight into the process that goes on at the manufacturer. It would take at least a year if not two for Sony to develop some new accessories for the F65. Would that effort be best spent on such a project or on work for a newer camera that incorporated other improvements? I'm not suggesting that I am privy to any details, only presenting that this is exactly how managers must think about applying their resources. Even Sony has to make such decisions and it can be very difficult to change things midstream. It's akin to turning around an aircraft carrier.

 

[GordanWillis]

I think the term "armchair quarterback" is awesome and needs to be used more. I haven't heard it in a while. Or "backseat driver" - which unfortuately I am more than an armchair quarterback.