Wireless LAVs for the new Sound Devices 664 for reality show

Blackout

Blackout

Veteran
Well after 2 years of abuse my Zoom h4N failed. I was using a Sound Devices 702 for sound for a long time as well but sold it when I needed some moula and it is still priced at $1800.

I am thinking of getting the new Sound Devices 664 that's coming out. It should be about $2800 but it's a mixer and a recorder with 10 discreet tracks. Now personally - I hate lavs, I never like to deal with them and almost always boom with a Sanken cs-3e the miracle mic of the gods - but that is on film projects. This is a reality show and the producer wants wireless lavs. I can't see how to do it without wireless lavs.

A project I am going to be doing is a reality show that will have people running all over the place with multiple cameras so i will need 4 or 5 lavs going into separate channels recording separately (not mixing to stereo) keeping it 6 mono tracks - 5 for lavs and one channel for boom.

IS there a kit or some box I don't know about that can send 5 lavs into one device on different frequencies? I shake just at the thought of the nightmare and expense of this. Do I have to get 5 separate lavs and 5 separate reciever boxes to plug into the inputs of the SD 664?

What kind of a budget am I look at? What are the audio guys on most reality shows doing (I have never done one) Can someone throw some ideas and links my way? The quality must meet broadcast standards.

- Blackout
 
Well, there are some systems that house dual receivers in one chassis... so you could, theoretically, cut your receiver load in half. BUT, these come from Audio Techinca (1800 series) and aren't going to be the best in the world. I know of no multi-channel receiver that can handle 5 or 6 transmitters (not counting rackmounted, modular systems, but these are not ENG/EFP units).

You're looking at 5 individual systems. As far as budget, well... the "$500 Wireless" sticky pretty much lays it out. You could probably get by with the Sennheisers, and they'll pass broadcast spec, but even though how you pass/surpass broadcast spec can be subjective above a certain point, if you're doing serious work, you're going to need to invest in solid gear. $2500 per channel or so.
 
Hi Michael,

Looks like it's time to upgrade. I still have the original working H4 back from 06' and a 702T for the light duties.

The 664 is going to suit very well within the realty-type jobs along with it's bigger brother 788T, where it's still the de-facto mixer/recorder for reality television. Although it's really meant to replace the 552, as it did with the 442, the 664 starts at the $4k pricing bracket and this doesn't include the $1500 CL-6 controller for add'l 6-track mixing totaling 12 ISO and 4 buss recording. That's 16 screaming tracks!

Wireless lavs are also the go-to weapon of choice on reality-type shows, though, boom microphones are almost always used when time permits on both production and post. They allow the entire production team to be on-the-go, thus, allowing more creative shooting style and storytelling purposes. Your Sanken CS3e is the staple of your kit besides the 664.

There are numerous wireless systems that will meet your criteria such as the lineups from Audio-Technica, Sony, Lectrosonics, and when in-doubt, Zaxcom, for their patented built-in Transceiver recorder/timecode technologies. All these companies have their own dual-channel receiver systems that allow 2 wireless channels to be received in one unit. This means you'll need at least 3x dual-channel wireless receivers to get 5 working wireless lavs incorporating with your 664. Most reality kits are supplied with Lectrosonics wireless receivers in models of UCR211 (single-channel RX), UCR411(a) (singal-channel RX), Venue Field (6-ch RX), and occasionally SRa (2-ch RX).

Lastly, with all the multiple cameras on set, is production needing you to send audio to each camera in mono/stereo, and needs their own dedicated mix? For example, A-Cam needs wireless #1-4, B-Cam needs wireless#1,2,5 and boom, C-Cam needs just boom. Do the producers also need IFB to monitor the feeds? Do they also need talkback capability so that they are able to speak to the talents if there was ever a car chase, separate room scenario?

Budget for all this, astronomical past +$10k!

- 664 mixer/recorder, $4k
- 5x wireless systems, minimum $5k-$15k if going the least expensive dual-channel receivers to a 6-channel all-in-one box such as the Lectrosonics Venue Field hosting 5 or 6 channels of wireless, and to top it with Zaxcom.
- 5x lavs, minimum $800

Cables, timecode slates and sync boxes, cam hops, and any other accessories not listed. You're looking at a huge investment. Although, you could buy them all at once and sell them back out at almost close to their retail value after the show is over, I would seriously advise you to hire a Sound Mixer who has done this kind of job before, and be his/her assistant.

What say you?

A.
 
For something of this size I would be looking at getting the production to hire the kit (and people?) required to do the job!
 
I concur with Gary. Rent.. if it's for a pilot or short run. Plenty of rental houses in NY. For a series, many production companies supply their own gear.
 
Holy crap.

I just fainted from price shock. I'm getting out of sound and moving more towards acting /writing directing when I am not shooting for someone else. I still need to replace my h4n but I think I just want to be able to handle say, my sanken cs-3e and two lavs. There doesn't seem to be a mixer recorder combo in this range though. I love the sound devices 702t but it's only two channel. if it had one more channel I would lav up two main actors on 2 and 3 and boom on 1 and only use 3 and 4 when needed because I don't really like the sound of lavs and only like to use them as backup if their are issues or if you are going for a live newscast sound.

Honestly after putting my h4n in a porta brace I will tell you almost no one knew the difference in the quality of sound from the h4n to the 702.
I DID.... but is that worth $1500.00 more dollars? I heard a few of my sound mixing jobs played in high end theaters during Sundance 11 / 12 and I was surprised at how I really could barely tell the difference from one short where I used the sanken into the h4n, and another where I had the 702 and also the 744 (pretty much the same sound as the 702). It's just like the GH13 and gh2h where you have to add a big rig to make it look fancy for clients/producers who don't understand (what is that little toy?) but then are blown away at the quality of the final production.


I think the big difference is on set where the sound devices headphone amp and controls and build are SO much better, but as far as sound quality of dialog when played back in a theater I'm not completely sure anyone could tell but me. They both sounder perfectly clear with maybe a dash more noise on the h4n.

I don't like separate mixers and recorders on set unless it's in a studio as it slows me down and it's cumbersome. I tend to try and have really compressed light kit. I do the same when I am putting together crews for indie or industrial projects and music videos and if I am doing sound I am usually doing it as a one man band or maybe one assistant to boom or mix. I prefer it all in one package to avoid all the messes and cables. I am going to be starting on my own script soon so I want a sound package that will work for me and that i can also make money with but I am not ready to drop 10k right now on sound. most likely going to be shooting with a combo of 3 or 4 hacked gh1s and gh2s for a pilot I am doing. That's where the h4n shined. It was tiny. I need a 3 channel sound devices that mixes and records to 3 discrete channels for under 3k!
Then I'll get two lavs. God I hate lavs. The sound and they frighten me.

I was doing my Trumpet the complimentary Dinopup series with lavs and concert headset mics when all of a sudden I realized the sound straight out of the GH2 was better because I was directly behind the camera working it and the puppet.

This next show will be a lot different as it has a lot more scripted parts and I want personally be puppeteering but pre recording the dialog tracks so the boom will just have to get me and other live action actors but not the puppets.

Still at a loss as what to go with without blowing a wad of cash.

 
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Since the H4n seemed to be more than acceptable for your needs, I assume that TC isn't a priority for you?

Have you considered the Tascam DR-680? It gives you 6 discreet tracks, plus a stereo mix. And for the times that you need more flexible mixing, perhaps look for a used SD 442 (there are some good deals out there), which offers direct outs on each of the 4 inputs so that you can feed the DR-680 for multi-track recording.
 
The 552 is nice sounding as most SD preamps are. Right, the recorder is only two-track but has many routing options. According to SD the recorder was built in for back-up purposes, camera-hops and such, it sounds decent, certainly better than a H4n by itself.
 
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