Window (day for night)

G

Glazarus

Well-known member
I have found a café that I really like to be the set for my next short film.
The problem is that the script takes place at night and we can only shoot during the day.
So, what I need is a savior that could give me some pro tips on how to create an on the set day for night on the windows, so that I can shoot the interior as if it was during the night.

I'm refering to the shots where the windows are visible in the background. They need to have some kind of filter on them so that the outside looks like "day for night" or better. I will light the interior so the windows needs to loose pretty much light.

I will not do greenscreen with nightshots inserted after, because I'm not that kind of filmmaker :cheesy:

Please help me... I have a meeting with the owner of the place this monday, so I need some tips that I could try before.
 
The problem with day for night is that it doesn't work with Windows. (sorry for the joke)
You can't achieve a night effect by only applying a filter.
Night is full of lights.
So unless the café is in a forest, you have to shoot with croma key (and this alone could eat all your budget...) or create a black box behind every window, apply large photos of night streets with special illumiation to simulate the light and use a 35mm adapter to put all that mock in the blur.

Third solution: convince them to shoot at night.



.
 
If the budget (0-budget) holds, I will use a 35 adapter, så the background might be out of focus most of the time. But I might shoot with wide lenses due to the place small size (and I like wide lenses ;).

Anyway, it seems that there isn't any possibility to shoot at night, because they have the place open at night (it's a bar also).
So I must solve this in some way. The big picture solution is a good idea, but I fear that people outside will destroy it due to the very common lack of intelligence of bystanders :D
I was thinking of some filter that makes the light become 4000k so that it maintans some degree of a night blue color. Then ND it down so that the street outside is barely visible. In a dusk day, the light will not be that "hard" and there will not be any brightspots outside. I will not shoot the sky or any streetlights and the exteriors will be shoot at night, then crosscut together with the interior material.

Remember, this is a low-0-budget movie but I want it to look pro.
The greenscreen idea could work, but I have no knowledge in that area, so I really like to skip that at this moment. Don't want to risk material of no use.
 
If you use heavy ND on the windows and white balance to 3200k lights you're using to light the interiors, the exterior is going to look very blue. So blue that you may want to use gels that combine ND and CTO to make it a little less blue. It's sort of a trial and error situation and the amount of CTO and ND you need will vary based on the weather that day.

You may want to test this to see if it'll work at all, or if you might need a different location where you're able to shoot at night.
 
Glazarus said:
Remember, this is a low-0-budget movie but I want it to look pro.
Click to expand...

Then I would suggest either shoot at night, or change locations to one that you can control. I'm shooting a scene very similar to this one for a project- a bar scene that is supposed to be at night. We found a bar that has some small windows that we will not show in the shots, so we will be covering them with duvatene to black out the sun light that is coming in. (Although for this movie we do have a budget.)

The problem with gelling the windows is that it is going to cost you a good chunk of money to gell them You will probably need a roll of gell, which for a 0 budget film will be a large chuck of cash $100+ .

Your best bet on a no budget film is to find locations that will add a lot of production value to the film, not cost you a lot, and not add a lot of head aches to the production. Things you might want to think about are: Does the scene HAVE to be at night? Do you HAVE to use this location? Does it HAVE to be in a bar? What do you gain / loose by changing any of these variables?

Good luck, I hope it works out for you. Pulling something like this off with no budget can be very tricky under the best circumstances ...
 
Well, the whole movie is about that bar and the people that work there, so yeah, it must be in a bar. Even if this is 0-budget, I can't change too much, because the nature of the script and it's details are important for the story.

Always remember whats important to the story, all else is unimportant.

The problem I have is that I need a location right now and this place have the right looks for the story. It's hard to find any other place that is better then this.
Once again, I didn't want to talk about changing location, I want to talk about a good solution to my problem.


Why do I need gel? I don't, I should be able to use ND filters and a large amount of yellow filters to neutralize the blue color. You use blue filters on tungsten to make it 5600k, well, using a yellow/orange filter makes the 5600k to become 3200k or 4000k so that it still has a little tint of blue.

Any thoughts on this? It's not that I'm going to have closeups of the window or shots out through the window, they will just be in the background.
 
If you don't need to see ouside why not just throw up some black-out material like dark curtains? There's going to be so much going on with people walking about the bar that no-one's going to be looking outside, especially if you have some beautiful lighting (shadows, neons etc.) inside. You could always chuck a party light or two behind the curtains to make it more interesting too so maybe just a little soft lights seeps through.
 
The street outside is "lit" during night, so it needs to be slightly visible, though, there aren't anything happening outside that needs to be visible.
It's all just background. If this were shot in a studio, i would have done a backdrop, but that's out of the budget.

To clarify something I might have missed telling you...
There is one key feature with the blue versus yellow light.
The street outside must feel cold while the inside of the café/bar must be warm. It's the nature and language of the café/bar itself.

So, it doesn't matter that much that there is a blue tint of the street outside.

Though, it sure must not be too blue and become unrealistic, I just want a tint.
So, having a yellow filter outside, making the kelvin drop to 4000 or 3700, will probably fix that. Then, adding a gray ND filter on to that creates a lightloss.
Also, it might be an idea to use a soft filter to "blur" the outside as a fake DOF on location.

Any thoughts on that? This is my idea as a photographer, but I might be wrong and there might be people who tested that with failure so please let me know what you think of that solution?
 
Glazarus said:
Why do I need gel? I don't, I should be able to use ND filters and a large amount of yellow filters to neutralize the blue color. You use blue filters on tungsten to make it 5600k, well, using a yellow/orange filter makes the 5600k to become 3200k or 4000k so that it still has a little tint of blue.

Any thoughts on this? It's not that I'm going to have closeups of the window or shots out through the window, they will just be in the background.
Click to expand...


Gels are what you put infront of the lights, and filters are what you put infront of the camera. I think that we are talking about the same thing. If you are planning on gelling the windows, and the windows are big, then it will be spendy to gell them. If you have the money, great- but it was my understanding that you have no budget.

It sounds like you have to have it in a bar, and it sounds like you are set on this location. So making the best of this situation will have to work.

As far as gelling the windows, you could use ND with a 1/4 or a 1/2 CTO (Color temperature oragne - this is used to color correct day light to tungsten) gel over them. That would leave some blue in the light as it come through the window. However that means that you will have to buy two gels for each window. another option would be to get some gel that is both ND and CTO. While it would be a cheaper route, I believe that they only come in full CTO & ND combinations, which means that it would completely correct the daylight, taking all of the blue out of the light.

If you do gel the windows, make sure to bring a squegee (SP?), and windex to apply them to the window. You'll want to apply it to the outside, and make sure that it is then taped down as well. This will prevent the gell from rattling around in the wind- killing your audio.

The way to solve this is you had the money and the space, is to build a tent out of duve (A thick black cloth used for blocking light) around the window, with a light inside. This light would then be gelled blue to give you complete control of the light coming in. (But duve is about $7 / yeard- so that option would be expensive as well.
 
Arson said:
http://www.videocopilot10.net/videotutorials/44-Day_to_Night/

here is a great day for night tutorial.
Click to expand...

That is a great tutorial. While this covers grading an intire scene, you could do this to the entire scene, and then composite it to the windows and spill area of the light coming through the windows. (This would be time consuming, and wouldn't look as natural as doing it on set, but if you have the apps, it would work.)
 
For an entire film that would not be especially practical... this isn't about that kind of Day for Night.
 
This is an interesting problem, and I'm probably not the best person to give advice on how to solve it. For the most part, solutions to lighting problems are still pretty elusive to me. I do know one thing, though -- when you're dealing with zero budget, you've got to compromise somewhere.

I don't mean to presume anything with this question -- but is it absolutely essential to the story that it takes place at night? Could you perhaps re-write it so that it works during the day? If you do this, then you don't have to make any visual compromises (day to night, etc) and you get to finish your film.

Necessity is the mother of invention, yeah? The question is -- on which end do you want to do the inventing? The technical side or the story side? In general, I find that when it's possible (and it usually is), results are always better when you alter the story. Often times the result is even more interesting. And whenever you don't have to pull of a special effect, your film will always be more believable. The problem is, it's a hard thing to do. As a writer/director, you grow attached to certain ideas/images and it's hard to throw them away.

But! As I said...I know nothing about the production. So, the "night" bit might be THE crucial aspect of the film.
 
No, the movie is partly based on the painting Nighthawks by Edward Hopper.

What makes a zerobudget movie look like a zero budget movie is the lack of will to fight for the vision. I will not change a story that is about nightlife into something during the day, because it doesn't fit.

Zerobudget or not, a good story is a story where everything works together. Cutting down one branch will destroy the whole tree.

So, once again, no, it must take place during the night and the thread is about a solution to the problem, not going along an easy path and dismiss the whole thread by the idea of changing one of the biggest aspects of this movie.
 
Glazarus said:
No, the movie is partly based on the painting Nighthawks by Edward Hopper.

What makes a zerobudget movie look like a zero budget movie is the lack of will to fight for the vision. I will not change a story that is about nightlife into something during the day, because it doesn't fit.

Zerobudget or not, a good story is a story where everything works together. Cutting down one branch will destroy the whole tree.

So, once again, no, it must take place during the night and the thread is about a solution to the problem, not going along an easy path and dismiss the whole thread by the idea of changing one of the biggest aspects of this movie.
Click to expand...

You sound frustrated with me. Honestly, that wasn't my intention. As I said -- I know nothing about the film you're trying to make. I knew it was quite possible that my suggestion wouldn't suit your movie. I was just offering an alternative way of looking at the problem. I'm often guilty of getting certain ideas and images stuck in my head and then spending far more time and resources than it's worth to get them to work.

Anyway! Enough derailing on my part. Good luck with solving this problem -- and, of course, I'm quite curious to see how you do it. Cheers!
 
Last edited:
Glazarus said:
For an entire film that would not be especially practical... this isn't about that kind of Day for Night.
Click to expand...

So, if color grading and compositing the corrected windows is not an option for you- can you afford the gels and / or duvetyne? If not, then you may have to settle for the look it gives you, or change the time of day in the story. From what I see here are your options:

Option 1-
Change locations: To one that you can use durring the night, or one that doesn't have these window problems. Remeber it doesn't have to be in an actual bar- only something that looks like a bar. I've seen some creative uses of space and set dressing to make a location look how the filmmaker wanted it to look.
Cost in money: $0 (If you can work a deal with the owner.)
Cost in time: 0
Cost to the story: 0

Option 2-
Change the script so that it take place durring the day.
Cost in money: $0
Cost in time: 0
Cost to the story: Sounds like it would be too costly for your story.

Option 3-
Color grade the scene, and then composite the corrected windows.
Cost in money: $0 (If you already have the programs)
Cost in time: Extensive
Cost to the story: 0

Option 4-
Gel the windows.
Cost in money: About $20 - $200 depending on how much you need.
Cost in time: Minimal, as you will set this up on set.
Cost to the story: 0

Option 5-
Tent the windows with duvetyne, set the light inside the tent, and gel the light blue.
Cost in money: About $50 - $300 depending on how much duve & gel you need
Cost in time: Some. It will take some time to build the tent, and place the light.
Cost to the story: 0
(This will be your best option, as it will give you full / complete control of the light coming through the window, as it will not move position, or diminish in intensity through out the shoot.)

Option 6:
Go black and white. Change this from a color film to a black and white film, and the color of the light will become less important.
Cost in mony: $0
Cost in time: 0 - some. (If you do it in camera, then there will be none, otherwise there will be some render time.)
Cost to the story: ??

Option 7:
Live with it. Realize that this location is only available durring the day, this location is important enough to you to use, and that you have limited resources and can only do so much with what you have.
Cost in money: $0
Cost in time: 0
Cost to the story: Some, as it will not look the way you intended.


There are seven different solutions for your problem. Whne making a zero budget film there will always be trade offs- it is a matter of deciding what trade offs are aceptable to you, and what are not.
 
In my mind, gelling the windows will not bring a realistic look.

Think about it. If you look out a window at night, what do you see? Everything is dark, but you can see street lights, head lights, and other light sources because they are the brightest things. Everything else, you might see depending on how bright those light sources are.

Now look out the window in the day. What's the brightest thing you see? Probably anything that's white because it is reflecting the most light from the sun as compared to anything of any other color. This means probably side walks and reflective windows and other surfaces. If you gel the window, all you're doing is turning down the intensity. The "hotspots" wont be light sources, but odd reflective sources, which will make things look really weird. Point your camera outside onto a street and stop down really low so everything is dark. Color balance it so it looks blueish. You wont get those bright street lamps and car headlights. It looks completely fake.

So to me, the only real options you have are:

1. Make it look fake by geling.
2. Beg the owner to let you shoot at night.
3. Find another location.
4. Change the script for day time.
5. Black out the windows and add pictures.

Those are your only options. There is no other way. And you must choose one. That choice is for you to make.
 
This reminds me of State and Main - "Does it have to be a mill?"

In your case - does it have to be a bar?

But seriously, how many scenes take place in front of the window? If there are just a few wide shots, perhaps you can just "sneak in" at night and steal those shots (provided they're MOS and you have the permission from the owner). Perhaps the scenes that take place in front of the window can be moved to another area of the bar. This way, you'll still be able to keep the bar location, just changing the setting slightly.

Now if what is going on outside the window is ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL to your plot, theme and character, then it probably shouldn't be compromised. How important is it to use the window to show the contrast between cold and warm? Can you use any other cinematic device to get that point across?

Honestly, I probably wouldn't do the gelling option unless I've tested it. Same with compositing. As Morisato said, gelling would look fake. Nothing takes me out of the story quicker than something that looks fake, but of course, that's just me. Are you willing to take that risk?
 
Forget all that logistical jazz of a nightmare.

Get an establishing shot of the place at night and then shoot the interiors with disregard to the windows.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top