Will you dump your Video DSLR when Canon comes out with a VIDEO CAMERA?

amrrahmy said:
my iq is slightly dropping,

i get where the number 5000 came from, how did you figure that number going with the specs you posted.

how did you figure the number and size of the pixels appropriate for the apc sensor size.

note: these are not really questions
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I know you are excusing yourself by saying these are not real questions but the fact that you posted it means they are on your mind so I will explain.

The 7D and the upcoming t2i are 18 megapixel still cameras and 1080p motion cameras. This huge difference in resolution. 5184x3456 (still) vs 1920x1080 (motion) happens because the camera throws data away by line skipping and pixel binning. This process causes moire and aliasing. In order to create the camcorder dreamed about at the start of this thread, they must make a sensor that is the same aps-c size that yields only 1080p rgb without line skipping and pixel binning.

You see? Its just math and common sense - of course the photosites on this alleged camera will be huge.

Before debayer, the logical choice of photosite resolution to yield a measurable 1080p rgb is around 2.5 to 3K raw depending on the debayer algorithm used.

edit:
As for the $5000 price point, I already explained that in my last post so I will explain again. Its common sense. Anyone with budgets larger than $5000-6000 will be tempted by RED's s35 package which is a $7000 brain only that has a sensor equivalent to aps-c and shoots 5K raw.
 
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J Davis said:
I know you are excusing yourself by saying these are not real questions but the fact that you posted it means they are on your mind so I will explain.

The 7D and the upcoming t2i are 18 megapixel still cameras and 1080p motion cameras. This huge difference in resolution. 5184x3456 (still) vs 1920x1080 (motion) happens because the camera throws data away by line skipping and pixel binning. This process causes moire and aliasing. In order to create the camcorder dreamed about at the start of this thread, they must make a sensor that is the same aps-c size that yields only 1080p rgb without line skipping and pixel binning.

You see? Its just math and common sense - of course the photosites on this alleged camera will be huge.

Before debayer, the logical choice of photosite resolution to yield a measurable 1080p rgb is around 2.5 to 3K raw depending on the debayer algorithm used.

edit:
As for the $5000 price point, I already explained that in my last post so I will explain again. Its common sense. Anyone with budgets larger than $5000-6000 will be tempted by RED's s35 package which is a $7000 brain only that has a sensor equivalent to aps-c and shoots 5K raw.
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But the 2000 - 3000 dollar jump up to add on all the accessories required to get up and shooting with the scarlet is enough for me to jump ship.
 
I for one need a camera and a video camera so thats why DSLR is best for me. So no, i wont. That andhte fact that the dedicated video camera will likely be $4-8000 if its pro-sumer.

jon!
 
PaPa said:
But the 2000 - 3000 dollar jump up to add on all the accessories required to get up and shooting with the scarlet is enough for me to jump ship.
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I know, I agree, the list of add-on's is endless.

I'm looking at the all inclusive ready to shoot out the box scarlet fixed for $4750. I'm sure the other RED product will drop in price over time.
 
I don't really see this happening. Canon just announced a new recording format. If we're lucky, one day it will find its way into a DSLR.

I think Canon is going to wait to see what happens with the Scarlet. I get the feeling their high end video cameras aren't a big chunk of their business.
I think their big hold out with a large sensor vidcam might be autofocus. With DSLR's video is an added feature. So AF isn't a make or break situation. But with a video camera that can't AF properly, I think they would see that as a shame to their name.
 
First, I have to say it's funny how antagonistic everyone gets about these things. These are just the Phantom imagined tools of our trade at this point and we are merely speculating. Just because canon hasn't done anything like this before doesnt' mean they won't get a wild hair across their ass to do something new. Although, I think they aren't really trying to do much except consistently move units.

They'll probably start by eviscerating the low end market by selling the Rebel T2i...Moire, aliasing, 8 bit color et al.

Next they might have another DSLR that uses a new digic (ASIC) with a full raster downsampling capability - in other words it will read out the whole sensor, then down-sample it. This is a proven method to offer less aliasing and theoretically could be better for moire. It wouldn't require complete sensor redesign - just faster sampling rates (or perhaps parallel sampling/processing). Of course it will still record in 8 bit 4:2:0 color with a weird codec so we'll still have something to ***** about. Oh yeah, and it will still have automatic Gain control.

Then they'll release a cheaper version of the same camera, but without AGC. Everyone will demand a firmware update. Canon will say a firmware update is coming...some time in 2012, but we aren't really sure which month, and if it will ever really be released so that we don't sell our (previous camera model here) to buy the $1000 cheaper (camera model here) Many People will still say the previous camera was better because they paid more money for it, even though it has a slower sensor readout and is somehow substandard in many ways. this second camera will be APS-C, and the one before it was Full Frame. People will tirelessly argue over how much better full frame is for shooting motion even though for the most part shooting motion on full frame is completely stupid for operating anything handheld and trying to stay in focus.

While all this is happening Canon will release a 3x1/3" sensor camera that records to SDHC cards and wonder why everyone is still using their HMC150's or HMC40s instead of their camera that is two years too late. Some people will get duped into buying the small sensor canon camera and OMFG-Sag-Indie projects on craigslist will demand that you own the Canon XH-L8 (get it? Late?) in order to shoot their project for deferred payment of $50/day - oh and you must own lights and bring a focus puller who will work for free and do craft service at the same time.

By this time a 2/3" inch scarlet might hit market, and Panasonic will have their 3rd generation M4/3 camera out. It might even be really good, but I won't use it because m4/3 doesn't really come close to approximating super35 sensor dimensions and so focal lengths have different field of view. I will however recommend it to everyone else I know buying a camera.

Meanwhile Sony releases an APS-C EVIL camera, but it's a waste of time for us because it only shoots 30p and has non standard microphone inputs. Oh, and it records to sony memory sticks.

Then canon will release a much more expensive SLR camera with the promise of better low light capability, but really it won't be much better at all (for the price differential) it will have mini-xlr inputs though, and will be on backorder for up to 3 months because they are ramping production up slowly.

Hope everyone had a laugh at this.:happy:
 
I am going to be honest with you all and myself for a minute. Please know that I mean no offense.

OK. So when I watched the Monsterfest submissions...here's what I saw.

As far as cameras go:

1. The winner showed that the GH1 can produce jaw dropping results. When my wife watched it, (average movie goer) she said that it looked like something you'd see at the movies. The film was PAR with her expectations as far as image, sound, acting, makeup, and overall feel.

2. "Bit and pieces" showed that the 7d can produce incredible results also. There were parts of that short that showed the same points. Incredible stuff.

3. Other entries showed that NEITHER of these cameras (or any other camera for that matter) can FIX inexperienced film making.

In this, I saw some people who are at my level. A better camera is NOT going to help my cause. My commitment to myself, is to OUT GROW the "under 2k DSLR" BEFORE I start investing more money into a better camera. If I'm being honest with myself, my SKILL doesn't deserve a camera that costs more than 500. (The D5000 is currently under 500 and is probably more camera than MANY of us DESERVE for our inexperienced film making/story telling skills)

So I'm just saying: Be honest with yourself. If you can't tell a story with the current DSLRs, why would that change with a "BETTER" camera? I am putting myself into that same category.

Until I can enter one of the DVXfests, or some other film festival, where my story, actors, effects, sound, score, and cinematography ALL OUT SHINE my camera....I'm going to stick with the under 2k DSLR. This takes discipline! I can AFFORD a Scarlet, (when it finally comes out....MAN IS IT PRETTY...go look at latest pics)....BUT I CAN'T EVEN handle what I have!

I need to earn my stripes. We all do.
 
HHL said:
I am going to be honest with you all and myself for a minute. Please know that I mean no offense.

OK. So when I watched the Monsterfest submissions...here's what I saw.

As far as cameras go:

1. The winner showed that the GH1 can produce jaw dropping results. When my wife watched it, (average movie goer) she said that it looked like something you'd see at the movies. The film was PAR with her expectations as far as image, sound, acting, makeup, and overall feel.

2. "Bit and pieces" showed that the 7d can produce incredible results also. There were parts of that short that showed the same points. Incredible stuff.

3. Other entries showed that NEITHER of these cameras (or any other camera for that matter) can FIX inexperienced film making.

In this, I saw some people who are at my level. A better camera is NOT going to help my cause. My commitment to myself, is to OUT GROW the "under 2k DSLR" BEFORE I start investing more money into a better camera. If I'm being honest with myself, my SKILL doesn't deserve a camera that costs more than 500. (The D5000 is currently under 500 and is probably more camera than MANY of us DESERVE for our inexperienced film making/story telling skills)

So I'm just saying: Be honest with yourself. If you can't tell a story with the current DSLRs, why would that change with a "BETTER" camera? I am putting myself into that same category.

Until I can enter one of the DVXfests, or some other film festival, where my story, actors, effects, sound, score, and cinematography ALL OUT SHINE my camera....I'm going to stick with the under 2k DSLR. This takes discipline! I can AFFORD a Scarlet, (when it finally comes out....MAN IS IT PRETTY...go look at latest pics)....BUT I CAN'T EVEN handle what I have!

I need to earn my stripes. We all do.
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Whoa. Someone's making sense.
 
I don't think anyone disagree's with the statement made, it's merely the temptation at acquiring a device that can 1) make you feel like you're now capable of making better material 2) feeling like you're working with the best that you can afford and in effect you feel like you're producing better work, which everyone is after some way or another.

Just knowing that something is available in your budget is enough to get someone to fork out cash regardless of how it will either help or hinder their work.

I know from my own experience that when i work with something that shows me a better picture, it's easier for me to sink my teeth into what i'm doing and really push all aspects of my talent, versus working with a handicam, flip out monitor, knowing that im working with such restrictions and not letting myself get as involved.

But yeah, definitely agree with the previous statement.
 
HHL said:
I am going to be honest with you all and myself for a minute. Please know that I mean no offense.


I need to earn my stripes. We all do.
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I am deeply offended by your dream-wrecking and deadly accurate disclosure.

Damn you HHL.......I was previously just one upgrade away from greatness.

You bubble-bursting, reality freak!:happy:

And thanks......great post!
 
Dan_Kanes said:
Next they might have another DSLR that uses a new digic (ASIC) with a full raster downsampling capability - in other words it will read out the whole sensor, then down-sample it. This is a proven method to offer less aliasing and theoretically could be better for moire. It wouldn't require complete sensor redesign - just faster sampling rates (or perhaps parallel sampling/processing). Of course it will still record in 8 bit 4:2:0 color with a weird codec so we'll still have something to ***** about. Oh yeah, and it will still have automatic Gain control.
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Ya know, you might be onto something here. All of the current Canon DSLR's are using Digic 4. It's possible that Canon having underestimated the response from the video crowd to DSLR's, didn't understand just how critical this video was going to be looked at.

So it's possible that when they start designing the Digic 5 chip, they're going to pay a lot more attention to its video functionality. In fact I'd be surprised if they didn't. So you never know, that chip might just do some wonderful things with video. Possibly even saving it to their new 4:2:2 format they just announced.
 
roxics said:
So it's possible that when they start designing the Digic 5 chip, they're going to pay a lot more attention to its video functionality. In fact I'd be surprised if they didn't. So you never know, that chip might just do some wonderful things with video. Possibly even saving it to their new 4:2:2 format they just announced.
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Digic 4 has been on the market for a while now. I'm pretty sure Digic 5 has already been in the pipe for at least a year. However, I'm with you on that they should make it as video friendly as possible. Although, I'm not sure if Canon even makes the Digic hardware although they certainly handle most if not all of the software. From the Digic wikipedia article, it seems that the image processing ASIC is a separate chip than the main Digic processor which makes sense. Hopefully off the shelf image processing ASICs are powerful enough for what we want at a reasonable price.

Edit:

My mistake, according to this article:

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080922/158348/

There is no separate image processing ASIC for the Digic 4. However, the whole package seems to be pretty cheap since they use it in the $400 point and shoot S90 so its not impossible for them to add some more processing power into it without it exploding the cost of the camera.
 
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if canon makes a camera comparable to an ex3 or better, it will be competitive in price, it won't go down as far as 5k for a functioning camera, it might start from 4-5 but will go as far as 8-sub10 for the high end model(not body only - we have to add that now for some people).

that would mean the 4-5k start point would be fixed lens !!

that would be allot of features made for studio, broadcast or eng work. that will include allot of features that you would not need for film, not to mention sailing away from the ff sensor size(which is at least 75% the selling point on an dslr).

but i'm guessing a ccd chip(if they went that way) might be a good option for the market, if all the new cameras went cmos skew for economy, what other option would there be for shooting sports and action sequences. at least untill they can incorporate a gpu that can work with a cmos chip to battle the skew.

the fixed scarlet most of you talk about is the 5k fixed lens that other manufactures make, it's not more affordable, and it's definitely not better than the options in the market today.and that will go both ways (price range or 2/3 broadcast).and don't argue that it's a 3-10k sensor or has dynamic range of 20-50, that's red measurements, they don't mean anything in the real world

the other scarlets and epics are not in the same price point, don't look at the body only price as the final price and compare it to other fully functioning cameras.
 
i know allot of people like the pany magic look, but i prefer the way the canon video look(in terms of both color and image sharpness and also overall picture quality, and then the sony ex. sorry:beer:).
 
I thought Canon already had a Digic V chip with a dedicated video ASIC?
Or did I mis-read a speculation for fact? Bit disappointing if I did.
Anyway don't underestimate what Canon can manufacture, after all how many DSLR companies make their own sensors? Canon Sony Panny at my count, co-incidentally the main video players.
Dave
 
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