C300: Will the FS7 finally knock the C300 off it's perch? What will Canon's response be?!!

S

Saf Suleyman

Member
Really exciting announcement today from Sony. A really great set of features at a great price point and a very attractive form factor. Can't wait to see side-by-sides with C300 and more to the point can't wait to see Canon finally bring out a new camera. I do fear it'll be extremely expensive whenever it does come out though :(

I own a C100 and adore it. This is the first of the new wave of releases that has really made me pay attention!!!

Thoughts?
 
Sony really are pushing the 4K thing with this new camera and also in the paid 4k firmware update soon to be available for the F5. If I was a Sony owner I'd be a happy chap! At present Canon have one 4K camera that requires an external recorder (C500) but nothing new on the horizon. Canon work to their own timescale and tend to avoid these shows to release new cameras so who knows.

Its funny, today Canon Pro Network asked this question on Twitter: How will the new #Canon firmware upgrades at #IBCShow help you? Tell #CanonIBC

No one has answered apart from myself! If they are referring to the C500/C300 firmware release I don't think its going to get hearts pumping this week.

I too own a C100 and love the image it produces. I just wish it could do more, but there's no point in wishing my life away!
 
Saf Suleyman said:
Thoughts?
Click to expand...

From a quick initial look, very tempting. The thought of a self-contained robust ENG-style unit that will slip into a Portabrace, complete with a decent (I hope) EVF, good onboard codecs, 4K upgradability (don't need it yet, but probably will, in time) sounds fab.

Just wish it would take EF lenses... although that Sony servo jobbie looks quite nice too...

Ben.
 
Okay, so... I switched from FS100 (amazing intro to a new world of videography) to FS700 (brief step into higher quality, but with the same old 'same old' ergonomic challenges) - I dipped into the Canon world of C100 - why not? I seem to have a lot of EF and EF-S lenses...

But hold the phone - FS7, WTF?

1) The ergonomics are stunning. When I first saw the EA50, I was shouting 'put the FS700 in THAT body!' - I'm a 'Run and Gun' shooter (which means I have to capture stuff where there's no chance for rehearsal, no chance for a take two, it just happens and you capture it). This sort of form factor, with THAT hand grip - is awesome.

2) Do you know how much it costs to get that arm, that EVF, that hand grip, that battery solution? I did a bit of totting up, and it works out that if I sell my soul to Zacuto and to a few other firms, I can buy an FS100 plus all the rigging to sort of match an FS7. This form factor works really well.

3) Sony actually listened to us. We moaned about the FS700. We saw the EA50 and said 'gimme, but not with a camcorder sensor'. Sony saw the Zacuto ENG solutions, and the 'how to make an FS100/FS700 EVF chimney loupe better by sawing it in half' videos and posts, and... bless their cotton socks, they bloody well did it. Look at the EVF, look at the hand grip. All that IN THE BASE COST. And we get 4K, we get 4:2:2, we get 10 bit, we get Rec:2020.

I simply loved the FS100 when it first came out. The FS700 was an astonishing re-interpretation. The FS7 is not an FS700, but it bridges the gap between an FS100 and an F5, it bridges the gap between the half inch PMW200 'little black sausage of joy' and the world of S35.

I am happily shooting with a C100 plus the 18-135 lens, but I can see the FS7 with the 18-200 and the new 18-135 constant aperture weather sealed ENG style lens as bieng pretty awesome.

But beyond all that, internal recording at 4:2:2, 10 bit is so necessary at HD now and that 4K at Rec:2020 is part of the deal, I think this camera has to join my menagerie. :)
 
I use the C100 on a monopod with a fluid head a lot, holding it by the grip. How are you supposed to control the pan and tilt of the FS7 while on a monopod? The grip seems poorly positioned for such use. Great for handheld, but I prefer monopod shooting.
 
I think the FS7 an interesting addition by Sony, but I don't believe it will knock the C300 off it's perch - at least in the TV production market where I do most of my work. The C300 is too easy to work with through post and many production companies have established workflow's with it. The mpeg-2 mxf codec is practically an industry standard for HD aquisition, and while the FS7 wisely has included an mpeg-2 format as well, I don't see productions moving away from the C300 for it. XAVC is a bit of bear in the edit pipeline, and every show I've worked on has steered away from it, even if we shot F5 or F55 due to workflow issues.

This is a nice cam for owners of private production companies that do independent corporate, event, wedding, or commercial work. But it's not going to take the place of a C300 in the television production pipeline, which is where the C300's are used most.
 
cowpunk52 said:
I think the FS7 an interesting addition by Sony, but I don't believe it will knock the C300 off it's perch - at least in the TV production market where I do most of my work. The C300 is too easy to work with through post and many production companies have established workflow's with it. The mpeg-2 mxf codec is practically an industry standard for HD aquisition, and while the FS7 wisely has included an mpeg-2 format as well, I don't see productions moving away from the C300 for it. XAVC is a bit of bear in the edit pipeline, and every show I've worked on has steered away from it, even if we shot F5 or F55 due to workflow issues.

This is a nice cam for owners of private production companies that do independent corporate, event, wedding, or commercial work. But it's not going to take the place of a C300 in the television production pipeline, which is where the C300's are used most.
Click to expand...

It's funny you say that. I was DIT on a TV show shot with the C300. I was using the production
company's laptop (it was a MacBook Pro). I could copy the files over just fine. But when I tried
to spot check them....big problem. There was not a single program on the laptop that could read
them. Not FCP X, not CS6. I downloaded MPEG streamclip. Nope. Downloaded Canon's own
software. Cool, now I could view the video, but no way to spot check the audio. In desperation,
I tried VLC. No dice.
I'm guessing one problem is that the mxf files are newer than FCP X and CS6 and that you must
buy plug ins to read those MXF files. But for Canon's own program to not work? Pretty lame in my
opinion. What do you typically use to view these files? I'm sure there is something out there, I just
couldn't find it. With the popularity of the C300 in TV productions there has to be something for just
quick viewing and listening to the rushes right?
 
alaskacameradude said:
It's funny you say that. I was DIT on a TV show shot with the C300. I was using the production
company's laptop (it was a MacBook Pro). I could copy the files over just fine. But when I tried
to spot check them....big problem. There was not a single program on the laptop that could read
them. Not FCP X, not CS6. I downloaded MPEG streamclip. Nope. Downloaded Canon's own
software. Cool, now I could view the video, but no way to spot check the audio. In desperation,
I tried VLC. No dice.
I'm guessing one problem is that the mxf files are newer than FCP X and CS6 and that you must
buy plug ins to read those MXF files. But for Canon's own program to not work? Pretty lame in my
opinion. What do you typically use to view these files? I'm sure there is something out there, I just
couldn't find it. With the popularity of the C300 in TV productions there has to be something for just
quick viewing and listening to the rushes right?
Click to expand...

Canon XF Utility will transfer the files with video and audio playback - this is what I typically use when I've done DIT for C300 shows. Also, VLC will play back the native MXF files with audio, but you have to go down the directory tree to the actual .mxf file. Avid MC, FCP X, & CS6 all can read and edit the files natively. MPEG Streamclip I've never tried, but I don't think it works.

I'm not sure how you had problems. I've done C300 DIT on probably a half dozen shows since the cameras came out and never had an issue with video and audio verification. Some DIT's I've worked with use Shotput Pro, then spotcheck with VLC for visual/aural confirmation.
 
Last edited:
If you see Japanese companies use single digit 7 in there product names, it's going to be a serious one (7 has cultural significance in Japan). For example, Canon 7D (flagship crop body), Sony A7 series, and now FS7
 
alaskacameradude said:
It's funny you say that. I was DIT on a TV show shot with the C300. I was using the production
company's laptop (it was a MacBook Pro). I could copy the files over just fine. But when I tried
to spot check them....big problem. There was not a single program on the laptop that could read
them. Not FCP X, not CS6. I downloaded MPEG streamclip. Nope. Downloaded Canon's own
software. Cool, now I could view the video, but no way to spot check the audio. In desperation,
I tried VLC. No dice.
I'm guessing one problem is that the mxf files are newer than FCP X and CS6 and that you must
buy plug ins to read those MXF files. But for Canon's own program to not work? Pretty lame in my
opinion. What do you typically use to view these files? I'm sure there is something out there, I just
couldn't find it. With the popularity of the C300 in TV productions there has to be something for just
quick viewing and listening to the rushes right?
Click to expand...
No offense, but you happen to be DIT on a TV show using one of the (if not THE) most used large sensor camera these days and didn´t know how to handle the files...?
That doesn't sound bad for Canon, but for you.
Besides you taking a job you weren't capable of and maybe putting a whole production at risk, a simple Google search for "how to edit/view C300 files" was't in the bag of tricks?
 
I'll take a camera that is shipping and has been thoroughly vetted by professionals any day of the week. Word.
 
"Finally a camera I can natively mount my vast array of awesome Sony lenses!" ... Said no one.

Joke's aside, it does look like a solid entry. Mount flexibility, solid ergonimics and the various recording formats. Things that would keep me away from upgrading my C300 are the proprietary media and Sony color. The one thing Sony has been very good at is cannablising their own products. I don't know too many F5/F700 owners, but even with the announced upgrades, I'd feel I little frustrated. If Canon can match this on specs and pricing, I'll be very happy.
 
Spartacus said:
No offense, but you happen to be DIT on a TV show using one of the (if not THE) most used large sensor camera these days and didn´t know how to handle the files...?
That doesn't sound bad for Canon, but for you.
Besides you taking a job you weren't capable of and maybe putting a whole production at risk, a simple Google search for "how to edit/view C300 files" was't in the bag of tricks?
Click to expand...

Well, I guess I assumed that the computer they sent for me to use, would have software that allowed me to spot check the files. It is easy enough to
transfer the files over from a card, and verify them, but to actually view both the video and audio? Both CS6 and FCP X were on the machine and despite
what Cowpunk says, neither one would allow me to view the files. As I said, I suspect these programs are older than the camera, and that newer plug ins
or program updates, would allow the programs to view the files. As is, they would NOT work. Same with VLC. I tried 'drilling down' and playing the actual .mxf files....no go.
(Being a FS700 owner I'm familiar with silly file types and drilling down to the .mts stream files). Sorry but it didn't work. Canon XF Utility would
playback the video, but not the audio. Resolve lite would, but with no realtime playback it was useless to verify anything. I actually tried the google
search (how to view C300 files on a Mac) and found lots of (Mac) people having problems with this.

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1238901
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/945169
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/1160967
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-cinema-eos-camera-systems/517552-viewing-c300-footage.html

There were lots of 'transcoding' solutions. But I didn't have time to transcode stuff, barely enough time to keep up with the floods of
cards that 3 different camera chains were throwing at me (transferring via USB 2 to external drives for backup, every card backed up to
two drives and only 1 USB 2 port on the laptop!) Then there were solutions like Shotput Pro or Red Giant's Bulletproof. Yeah, those all
cost money, and I wasn't buying stuff for this TV show on my dime. And finally, there were solutions like trying FCP X, that just
wasn't working, either because the version of FCP X they had installed was too old or????. I even attempted to download
a trial version of Avid just for spot checking as I was hoping that would work, but the hotel internet was like dialup speed so no go there
either. (this also put the kibosh on updating FCP X or CS 6 which were other solutions I was contemplating.)

And lest you think I was just an incompetent boob, I had the director, producer, and all three C300 camera ops give a
try at figuring out how to view the files. I figured the C300 ops or one of the AC's would certainly know. Umm...nope
they all went for the same solution, Canon Utility, and as mentioned, there was no audio playback. So next, we called
the production office, and talked with the assistant editor, and finally editor of the show, trying to figure this problem out.
Guess what??? None of them could figure it out either. So at the very least I wasn't the only 'incompetent boob' on the job.
Good news is, despite these problems, the program came off ok (mostly. The show is now playing on the FYI network.
There was one card's worth of C300 stuff that I transferred over, but without being able to spot check it, couldn't tell them,
but it was corrupted. I have seen this once before when shooting for American Eagle Outfitters as an AC with the C300,
we went up a mountain, shot a ton of stuff, and everything looked fine in camera (record light on, timecode rolling).
Whole card was corrupt and we had to bring talent back the next day to reshoot. So apparently these CF cards
(probably especially rentals like these) go bad. Which was why I wanted to spot check in the first place.
I highly recommended that they get a newer DIT computer with Thunderbolt for faster transfers, and newer
NLE's or at least a paid for program like Shotput Pro for spot checking stuff, but that didn't help me.

However, regardless of the problems on this particular 'adventure' it sounds like the answer is that
new 'updated' versions of both FCP X and Premiere Pro will read Canon MXF files. And that is good
to know!!!
 
Last edited:
I think some of us are missing the point.. I think one way or another this is great, why? well because competition is just great for us, that means canon might have to respond to this one way or another which is good for us. Canon rumors just posted that canon might have something at photokina for Cinema users, as right now i dont believe it, because its a photos type conference but you never know. They might want to kinda say "hey were still here" type thing. Either way im going to wait what canon is going to respond. I think they just been quietly working on something great for us. I cant bring myself to move to sony since I dont like their color science, plus I've fallen in love with the c100/c300 form factor.
 
alaskacameradude said:
...However, regardless of the problems on this particular 'adventure' it sounds like the answer is that
new 'updated' versions of both FCP X and Premiere Pro will read Canon MXF files. And that is good
to know!!!
Click to expand...

better later than never.

When I bought C300 in 2012, FCP X was already out, I think at 10.0.3. I immediately started using Canon utility to import C300 files into FCPX. Soon after that FCPX added its own support for viewing, listening, importing and archiving Canons files. I use it on many computers, mine and others, to work with c300 files. I have never ever experienced any problems whatsoever.
 
From discussions with Canon reps, the next generation of Canon Cinema EOS will all have 10 bit internal recording. Question I couldn't get answered is - when??
 
Alaska, how long ago was the shoot? I bought my 300 last year(2013) and have used Canon XF utility to check files(audio and video) on my 2012 RMBP. Directly off the cards has never been an issue, but playing back transferred/stored files & folders can be a pain or impossible if it doesn't like the name you gave a file or folder. But if it played and there was audio recorded, it would play. Also, the plug-ins for FCPX are free from Canon's site. Sorry you had issues. That was pretty crappy of the production co. to send you out without the proper tools to do the job. That's always frustrating. None of us like it when our fate isn't entirely in our own hands.
 
silyn said:
better later than never.

When I bought C300 in 2012, FCP X was already out, I think at 10.0.3. I immediately started using Canon utility to import C300 files into FCPX. Soon after that FCPX added its own support for viewing, listening, importing and archiving Canons files. I use it on many computers, mine and others, to work with c300 files. I have never ever experienced any problems whatsoever.
Click to expand...

Did they say anything else? because that would be cool as long as is not 45 to 50K pricing is also something the need to improve on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top