Why the Zoom F4 does not work as an ENG field mixer, feeding line level into a camera

I just found this youtube video that covers some to the points mentioned in this thread.


Kind of different, a pro talking about the F4 from a pro's point of view.
 
Interesting. I would qualify the Pro" with cameraman though.
Some things that bothered or surprised him wouldn't have in the same way if he were a sound person.

My biggest take away is that the bag sucks. A fair amount of sound equipment has things you beed to get to on the bottom so PortaBrace bags built for such gear give you away to access it. My recorders batteries are on the bottom and I haven't taken it out of the bag in years because there is an access panel right where I need it.

Everyone who works in sound, even a short time, knows there is a consumer line level and a pro one. The surprise with the Zoom is they put a consumer level signal on a pro level connectors.

TC and media location is a good point. I'm not sure how big a deal it is for most people but it's a valid inconvenience. I've done very few location gigs with TC, but when I did we only jammed generally twice a day. I'm sure that varies a lot by production and equipment so, could be more of a pain, and again you would want a bag with bottom access. Media though? You can easily get a days worth on a card. Being paranoid I would usually back up on lunch but if you have the Zoom set to auto backup to the second card...

It's also a bit weird that he is comparing it to a mixer, but seems to think they are somehow the same?

But probably just me "sound guy bitching". There are probably more shooters on this board than dedicated sound people so this is really on point.

I suspect that the PortaBrace bag for this solves the access issues. The storage space issue is I think kind of a non issue. You shouldn't be trying to store a bunch of cables in your bag, that is just silly. Even so if he took the time to coil them they would probably fit better. But realistically cables go in their own space. When your on the bag the cables are looped and hanging on the out side, if you are carrying a bunch of umbilicals. When you wrap the cables get coiled and put in whatever you stash your cables in.
 
Scott, I tend to agree with everything your said.

However, I would rather have XLR's on -10, than mini-jacks on +4. Wouldn't you?

I think from watching his video, that over there they gave the bag away with the recorder, so he really doesn't have a complaint. But it is nice to know not to buy the Zoom bag.

I do not know what the complaint is about the SD cards. I mean you can put two 512gb cards in the recorder, you are not likely to run out of space on a days shoot, no matter how long a day that is.

Every tool, even as simple as a hammer, is a compromise. On the F4 I do not think they made any that makes it unusable for its intended purpose. But that video covers most of the complaints I have heard, so it gives them a chance to op out if it does not meet their needs. Yes?
 
Well the plus for the XLR's is they won't pul out easily. The down side (for Zoom) is that everyone and their mother is going to assume either mic level or +4 and I doubt a lot of folks have XLR to RCA (which is what you would expect from -10). But that brings up a question. Is it balanced -10? That would be especially weird. For me it makes no nevermind. If push came to shove I could do a wireless hop and make the camera happy, the hero tracks are in the recorder.

I think it is great you found the video. It's a perspective from a shooter and that is very relevant to a lot of folks on this forum. And even from someone who hardly shoots at all I learned about the bag, which I might have gone for since the PB bag is probably a lot more.

Ironically the one thing I thought of before that his sound people commented on, which is the cramped interface. Roomier than the F8, but it's one thing that always bugged me about the SD recorders, too damn small. The old PortaDAT was a good form factor, you could get your fingers in there with out bumping things you don't want to.

One reason I will hate to stop using the Marantz is because they have the same slide to go into record button. It's great, stick your hand in the bag and you can go into record with out having to look at the recorder. Not a big deal your production probably but when your recording FX and there is a train or something coming at you you really want to keep your eyes on the thing that might kill you rather than looking down into a bag trying to figure out what button to push.
 
Wow, I never really thought about it before but I have been in the path of a lot of lethal things... A bunch of trains, more cars than I can count. Horses, camels, helicopters (they came so close it clipped the antenna on the van...), planes, a slew of them. Nothing is quite like being with in six feet of an aircraft going full out past you. Mostly stunt planes, the jets were farther away, still a jet doing a supersonic pas at 100 feet or so is an interesting experience. And semi's, though to be fair my partner was the one who got the job to stand in the road in front and record it come to a screeching halt ;~).

The best plane one was a stunt plane taking off. It was a private airport so we could shoot just about anywhere and we were at the end of the runway so they were taking off right over our heads. It's not really the place you want to be if anything goes wrong, but...

Anyway this pilot named Rocky is making his run down the runway at us, he gets maybe 12 feet off the ground and flips upside down. We hit the deck as he just blows past us upside-down. When we get up the other pilots are rolling on the ground laughing. One yells out "that's Rocky, didn't anyone tell you? He always takes off like that!".

Made a great recording. Well until I hit the ground anyway.
 
Earlier this week I did a several TVC's (2 days shooting) using the New BlackMagic Ursa 4k pro camera, I was feeding it from a SD442 and during setup the best level out of the SD442 to suit the camera was -10db (interesting)...... If i fed +4 out of the mixer i need to insert internal camera pads.
I was using my new F4 on the shoot as a backup (first job with it) and loved it... The SD card thing on the base isn't a problem at all.
If you think it is a problem and need to do transfers often then just use the USB on the side of the F4 and you will never need to remove the card at all.
 
Zoom should have looked at the portabrace bags to understand how sound guys use it. They have just provided a regular camera bag for the zoom f4. I had read that Leica's first digital camera also suffered from a similar problem as the F4. I remember reading a photographer shooting in Iraq saying that since the CF card slot had to be unscrewed to remove the CF card, they could not remove it fast when a soldier came to confiscate the card.

-10dB in XLR out is shocking. Zoom makes cheaper stuff and brings new products to the market faster. So I guess, it would be making more money despite some nasty surprises in the products. I am sure soon Zoom will bring a new and better version of f4.
 
Actually, there are few nasty surprises in the recorder. Some differences in expectation, sure. I, myself, thought that the outputs were +4db, but that was based on something I read before it had actually come out. Probably some reviewer looked at the XLR's and assumed.

Did anyone even note what the guy in the video said over and over? "But, it sounds really good." I think that is the most important part. Especiallly, at that price point.

Also, I note, by OzGizmo's post that apparently some of the latest pro cameras are coming out with -10db inputs. Maybe Zoom is just ahead of a trend. Certainly, if you can get good sound at the lower levels, it makes for more compact and energy efficient gear. Once again, "it sounds really good"!
 
If you want a good bag for the F4 (and F8), take a look at the K-Tek Stingray Junior or Stingray Small (depending on how much space you need). Full disclosure, I was on the design team. That being said, since I did a good amount of bag work, I actually know what needs to be in a bag and how the gear works together. I'm no longer with K-Tek, but I'm with DVeStore now.
 
graywolf said:
Actually, there are few nasty surprises in the recorder. Some differences in expectation, sure. I, myself, thought that the outputs were +4db, but that was based on something I read before it had actually come out. Probably some reviewer looked at the XLR's and assumed.

Did anyone even note what the guy in the video said over and over? "But, it sounds really good." I think that is the most important part. Especiallly, at that price point.

Also, I note, by OzGizmo's post that apparently some of the latest pro cameras are coming out with -10db inputs. Maybe Zoom is just ahead of a trend. Certainly, if you can get good sound at the lower levels, it makes for more compact and energy efficient gear. Once again, "it sounds really good"!
Click to expand...

As far as I can tell the F4 is about a 9 on a 0-10 scale. The +4/-10 thing is a bit of a pain, and that it's a balanced -10 is even funkier (those cameras are almost certainly un-balanced -10). But it was not very long ago that at this price point you could get a decent high quality cassette recorder, more recently you could get a good MiniDisk recorder. Neither of those come anywhere close to the sound quality you will get off the F4.

Part of the trade off with $$$ is that you have to put up with some things. You have to "put up" with very little with the F4.

I actually think it's a better deal than the F8.
 
Saw one of these this week and it looks a very interesting addition to the F8 and F4, you can also plug in a USB keyboard for idents etc:

 
When I first read about that FRC-8, I thought , but the F4 only has 4 channels. But thinking about it it actually has 8 recording channels. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5/6, & Stereo Mix (7/8). Will that thing control each of them?
 
Just saw THIS SD442 for sale in the Marketplace. It's a solid mixer (I have one), and with direct outs on each input it is a great front end to a multitrack recorder... and it has plenty of outputs to cam as well.
 
Alex H. said:
Just saw THIS SD442 for sale in the Marketplace. It's a solid mixer (I have one), and with direct outs on each input it is a great front end to a multitrack recorder... and it has plenty of outputs to cam as well.
Click to expand...

^^^This.

I've used the 442 a bunch as a front end to many recorders. It's still an extremely capable mixer that has 4 pre-fader direct outs that you can go right into the F4 on. Send tone; set unity; bob's your uncle. This is the route I'd go if I had to actually do mixing with the F4. The F4 is a great recorder for what it is. Throw a 442 in front of it and you have a really nice little setup that will leave you very versatile as an audio professional as well. You'll be able to get gigs where you don't need to record so you can just use the 442 and go right to camera if that's what the job calls for.
 
After owning a succession of economy recorders, I have found a real sweet spot with a 302 + 744. For two channels, all I need is the recorder. Four channels or five inputs into four, add the 302. Use the 302 as a direct to cam mixer. Record to the 744 and send a mix to cam. For me, the most important thing in the field is the quality-brightness of the meter display. Both devices have extremely bright LED meters that can be adjusted for your recording needs. Audio quality = superior. Quality of construction = superior. This combo might not live up to the latest trend for larger quantities of recorded channels, but for small productions (in my case small corporate usually) I can't imagine anything more effective and don't need more than 4 channels.

Grant
 
Noiz2 said:
Great post. It won't stop me from buying one but it is kind of silly to have -10 output on XLR. Nothing I know of with an XLR input is going to be expecting -10.
I suspect it is growing pains of a dedicatedly consumer product company stepping into the professional/ prosumer market and will be fixed in a later generation.

I also doubt that it can be fixed with a firmware update but? The DAC may have a setting?
Click to expand...

Actually, after a lot of thinking, I believe it is a case of the integrated circuits being designed for -10. It is not likely that Zoom is using custom IC's, so they had to work with what they could get.They could have put transistor buffers on the output and gotten +4, but at a higher cost and shorter battery life. Electronics design is always a compromise, unless cost is no object.
 
This is the manual of F4 Page 96. Please look at the "HINT" listed:

This can be set to Mute or from −48 0 to +12 0 dB

Setting the output level at +4db = line level .

Should't this setting work for ENG Camera with regular field mixer ??

Please Advise !
 
kenjitanaka said:
This is the manual of F4 Page 96. Please look at the "HINT" listed:

This can be set to Mute or from −48 0 to +12 0 dB

Setting the output level at +4db = line level .

Should't this setting work for ENG Camera with regular field mixer ??

Please Advise !
Click to expand...

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