Why doesn't the HVX do HDV?

[contentlab]

Why isn't it December yet???

because we haven't begged superman to fly around the earth really fast to speed up time

how do you get a hold of superman anyway?

 

[harddrive]

... and the model ........was pretty and nude.

I noticed that the model held her pose... and didn't move... except slightly. Different shot... still no movement... the camera was locked down... no movement either.... the video ends.

My conclusion... but I could be wrong: I suspect the camera guy knew the limitations of HDV interframe compression... that movement would ruin the lovely resolution of his HD picture... and structured his shooting style around it.

Under those circumstances, I don't think I'd be worried about the intricacies of interframe compression systems...... ( ) And are you sure the model wasn't more worried about revealing too much of herself than compression artefacts?

... Honestly, I can see your point of view... you want to have both... and I hope you do... in the next iteration of HVX.

As for the TRANSITIONAL viewpoint you're advocating... it would make sense if we all had large libraries of HDV material which we want to add to and work with.

The trouble is that by the time of the next iteration of HVX (or other products) all this will be less and less relevant - it's what happens in the next few years I'm thinking about. The DVD/VHS combi approach illustrates the transition problem for the end user. For the other end of the chain it's somewhat different, and whatever it is I'm advocating relates more to workflow considerations than those of library.

For a single user totally responsible for their own material, and in a controlled environment P2 is excellent now. But think of the opposite end of the spectrum, documentaries and hard news, say. Currently material may be taken away from a cameraman to be edited etc elsewhere, whilst they carry on shooting, and many people may be involved in the chain. Alternatively, a common scenario for a cameraman such as myself is to do a days shoot, and the material be taken away for later editing, not necessarily even by the producer responsible. Panasonic have been challenged to come up with suitable workflows for such scenarios, and frankly haven't managed it.

Some - no, many - scenarios will need a media which can be classed as "consumable" for the foreseeable future. Eventually solid state will reduce in price to the extent it may be classed as such, at which point it truly will become universal. When I talk of transition, it's from tape - any tape, not just HDV - to that.

Panasonic wants no compromises with the HVX, and I agree.

Well - you are presumably talking of quality, I'm talking of workflow. For many users, including many current DVX users, the HVX is severely compromised here. I don't WANT to compromise quality, but if it's a choice of that or not being able to shoot at all, or suffer great inconvienience....... that's a no-brainer. Unlike any current HDV camera, an HVX + HDV would allow the best of both worlds. In a way, it's a typical struggle between the idealists and the pragmatists. But if like you, my workflow wasn't inconvienienced, would I see it like that?

Peace, buddy.

Amen.

 

[Malcolm Wright]

Hey!

Well I actually plan to shoot a documentary with the HVX next year (and I am crossing my fingers the Firestore will be available by early April), so the concerns Harddrive mentions are not alien to me.
I'm confident that with a firestore or two and two 8gb P2s, I'll be able to function fairly well. Yes, I'll have to do some archiving every evening but I see that as a good thing... doing a preliminary trim of footage and taking stock of what the day has yielded while archiving the good stuff will be good discipline, and inspiring as well.

Some nights I'll be knackered, but the quality of the finished product is worth a little extra effort. I wouldn't dream of shooting the project in HDV. I'd limit its distribution potential, and anything I devote that much of my time and energy towards is worth doing well within the confines of my budget.
I'd rather shoot it in SD than HDV.

M.

 

[stabwound]

For a single user totally responsible for their own material, and in a controlled environment P2 is excellent now. But think of the opposite end of the spectrum, documentaries and hard news, say. Currently material may be taken away from a cameraman to be edited etc elsewhere, whilst they carry on shooting, and many people may be involved in the chain. Alternatively, a common scenario for a cameraman such as myself is to do a days shoot, and the material be taken away for later editing, not necessarily even by the producer responsible. Panasonic have been challenged to come up with suitable workflows for such scenarios, and frankly haven't managed it.

I agree that Panasonic does not suit your workflow in its current model. But almost every other camera does. For your type of work (I am making assumptiions here.... ENG, wedding, corporate, documentaries etc....)

An FX1 would do fantastic and it's almost half the price of an HVX. I just don't see how using a Panasonic HVX will give you an advantage in your field of work. The appeals of the HVX are primarily the DVCproHD, P2, progressve and 24fps. Why pay for aspects which you won't use?

It's like buying a fast sports car (aaieee! Accursed car analogy again...) and wondering why the trunk's not large enough to haul two by fours. Better to buy a truck to begin with.

As Barry pointed out, EVEN IF Panasonic incorporated HDV into the HVX, the odds of your client playing your footage is low, unless he also has the same system. If ENG is your bag, I think you're better off getting something the news people are using for compatabilities sake.

Some - no, many - scenarios will need a media which can be classed as "consumable" for the foreseeable future. Eventually solid state will reduce in price to the extent it may be classed as such, at which point it truly will become universal. When I talk of transition, it's from tape - any tape, not just HDV - to that.

I look forward to that. All will be P2. All will be assimliated... resistance is futile(spoken in Borg tones).

Well - you are presumably talking of quality, I'm talking of workflow. For many users, including many current DVX users, the HVX is severely compromised here. I don't WANT to compromise quality, but if it's a choice of that or not being able to shoot at all, or suffer great inconvienience....... that's a no-brainer. Unlike any current HDV camera, an HVX + HDV would allow the best of both worlds. In a way, it's a typical struggle between the idealists and the pragmatists. But if like you, my workflow wasn't inconvienienced, would I see it like that?

Actually, I was referring to Panasonic's vision... and as they see the future. The roadmap may have been provided by today's DSLR's... reusable memory. For me, I rediscovered still photography in an amazing fashion. I hope the HVX will do the same for me.

I enjoyed the discussion with you, Harddrive! But I know your needs will be fulfilled one way or the other... hopefully soon.

 

[harddrive]

As Barry pointed out, EVEN IF Panasonic incorporated HVD into the HVX, the odds of your client playing your footage is low, unless he also has the same system. If ENG is your bag, I think you're better off getting something the news people are using for compatabilities sake.

I enjoyed the discussion with you, Harddrive! But I know your needs will be fulfilled one way or the other... hopefully soon.

Likewise I enjoyed the discussion, and I think nearly everything that can be said now has been. Hopefully we're both the wiser.

But the compatability issue really isn't that great, really just one in two: HDV1 or HDV2, 720p or 1080i. No worse than the choice of 720 or 1080 in any system. Canon may have complicated the matter by extending the spec to give 24p support, but AFAIK non 24p Canon recordings are perfectly playable in Sony machines, and 24p is generally not seen as that important in the 50Hz world anyway.

True, I may wish to (say) have bought the HD100, but an important client may (say) have many HDV2 players and force me to the Z1. So haven't Panasonic missed a trick by not allowing for HDV1 recording to tape when recording 720 DVCPRO HD to P2, and HDV2 to tape when 1080 DVCPRO HD to P2? What a universal device that would have been..... The same camera for every client, no matter what they wanted? OK, a different camera for HDCAM, but I'll live with that.

 

[BigMike]

-Nate[/QUOTE]
Again I'm curious as to how many HDV bashers have used (shot on/edited) HDV because I've been on a lot of video forums and there's always a lot of chatter but I'm willing to bet 90% or more of those who bash HDV (like those who bash cameras) haven't used it. That not a pro HDV statement as much as it's just probably the truth. People shot on the original JVC and found ways to edit, many seem to love the Sony FX1 even without 24p, and some have even found ways to shoot on the current JVC w/ split and all. And these people will beat you if you try to take their cams. Many of these people are professionals. So do they just not know the pitfalls of "uneditable" HDV? Have they been in the dark for years?

Hi Nate, I've never quoted before, sorrry if I get it wrong.

I rented the JVC HD100 for a weekend and virtually all the filmmakers who wanted to attend the test shoot flaked out, so I shot buildings and people crossing the street.

Then, in the evening, I did some simple stuff with a couple lights on a very colorful mask I bought in Venice Italy.

My conclusions are that If you take that JVC camera's componant footage out before it is converted to MPEG (HD-SDI) and then input it into a computer via an Aja adapter and using Cineform Prospect HD to ingest (and upres it) up to 1920 x 1080p, you will have spectacular footage that can be edited easily ona PC.

They even have their own capture hardware coming out soon that ingests the footage in on two RAID 1 disks that mirror each other so you don't lose footage.

On the other hand, when using the tape, the picture looked great until I would pan or there was an actor moving. Then the resolution seemed to drop until the motion stopped.

I didn't have this problem coming out of the Componant Y/U/V outputs.

I'm dying to see the Panny, but I haven't ruled out he JVC yet. I jus taccept that if I buy JVC I will be carting a computer or the Saefor device around with me to bypass the HDV compression.... Which is fine. Right? For the price of the camera it's a fantastic deal.

There's my two cents.


Mike

 

[Stevet]

My conclusions are that If you take that JVC camera's componant footage out before it is converted to MPEG (HD-SDI) and then input it into a computer via an Aja adapter and using Cineform Prospect HD to ingest (and upres it) up to 1920 x 1080p, you will have spectacular footage that can be edited easily ona PC.

Yes you could. I can only imagine this would look great. You could also do the same thing with the HVX200.

How would you manage this type of work flow outside of a studio?

Steve

 

[stephenlnoe]

On the other hand, when using the tape, the picture looked great until I would pan or there was an actor moving. Then the resolution seemed to drop until the motion stopped.

Please post an m2t showing what you are saying about motion in the frame. You are the very first person to say there are motion problems with the HD-100. I'd like to see what you've come up with that can force the JVC codec to macroblocks.

 

[BigMike]

Yes you could. I can only imagine this would look great. You could also do the same thing with the HVX200.

How would you manage this type of work flow outside of a studio?

Steve

I'm not kidding when I said I would cart around a computer. A dual Opteron with a SATA RAID on board.

I've been shopping around for generators. Honda makes an inexpensive generator that's pretty quiet, less than 50 decibles. Not to run lights, just enough to run the computer (they don't make a powerful enough laptop yet).

I'm hoping that the HVX200 will make that unnecessary.

 

[dregenthal]

I've been shopping around for generators. Honda makes an inexpensive generator that's pretty quiet, less than 50 decibles. Not to run lights, just enough to run the computer (they don't make a powerful enough laptop yet).

Hmmm, I may be wrong, but I don't think you'd really want to power your computer off a camping generator . . . Perhaps one of our "EE" types will comment?

 

[OliverM]

I've got some motion problems with hdv to. Altough this concerns the sony z1. If you move the camera, everything seems to get a little blurry untill half a second after you stop moving. And no this wasn't just motion blur. That usualy stops at the same time the camera stops.
Don't know about the other HDV cams though.
But THE thing I don't like about HDV is the audio. Unlocked and compressed? Not for docu and so on thank you. I need my sound to be cristalclear. Hell, I need everything to be on an acceptable level.
Besides, this only the first generation of small semipro to pro HD cameras. So you still have compromises. I'll take the more difficult workflow. Because it just means (a bit) more hassle for me, but then I'll have the best possible quality picture and audio from a 'handycam'. Normally the HVX should rival 16mm or better. And with this kind of portability, it's worth the hassle for me.

 

[BigMike]

Generator into UPS power supply that's grounded ought to do the trick. Don't you think?

 

[Ernest_Acosta]

Big Mike, what is the model number of the generator you are referring to. I think any kind of portable power with a low decibel rating is good for our kind of work. I have a 3 phase power distribution box with 150 feet of cable basically for a tie-in to a main line, but there will be instances where this will not be feasible (in the woods, at the beach, etc.).

 

[BigMike]

Boy! You are all asking me specifics when I haven't even begun to shop. I was thinking a small portable Honda generator because they are less than 50 Dbs and I might be able to put portable sound proofing between it and the actors.
I'm sure there are other options out there to power a computer, I just haven't searched them out. Who knows? Maybe by next June there will be a laptop with the equivilant of a dual opteron?
Right now I'm hoping the Panasonic HVX200 will be as good a camera as the general consensus is hoping. Then won't have to figure out how to power a computer and lug it to shoots. It would be a pain in the butt, but worth the trouble to get the best picture possible.

Let's wait for the HVX200 to be released before we talk about this... Unless you already know of some equipment suggestions I might look into to provide portable power.
Thanks for all the responses!

MIKE

 

[stabwound]

I've got some motion problems with hdv to. Altough this concerns the sony z1. If you move the camera, everything seems to get a little blurry untill half a second after you stop moving. And no this wasn't just motion blur. That usualy stops at the same time the camera stops.
Don't know about the other HDV cams though.
But THE thing I don't like about HDV is the audio. Unlocked and compressed? Not for docu and so on thank you. I need my sound to be cristalclear. Hell, I need everything to be on an acceptable level.
Besides, this only the first generation of small semipro to pro HD cameras. So you still have compromises. I'll take the more difficult workflow. Because it just means (a bit) more hassle for me, but then I'll have the best possible quality picture and audio from a 'handycam'. Normally the HVX should rival 16mm or better. And with this kind of portability, it's worth the hassle for me.

A funny thought occurred to me while I was reading your post.

Here's a "what if" situation... what if we had to do the next Bond movie with the Z1 and had to work around it's apparent limitations....

Script:

Blofeld: "Mister Bond. You intend to kick my gun from my hand... yet you do it in very slow fashion... why?"

Bond: "If I moved any faster my features will turn mushy, and my fans will no longer recognize me. It's the long GOP thing with HDV."

Blofeld: "Aah... I understand. This is a high definition movie... but we can adjust."

Bond: "In what way?"

Blofeld: "Instead of the usual high speed chase via speed boat and helicopter, we will have to work in scenarios that call for... low speed chases..."

Bond: "You mean like as in the O.J. Simpson car chase?"

Blofeld: "Even slower, Mr. Bond. My evil plans for world domination calls for my secret space satelite to shower the entire globe with a coating of sticky fudge, entrapping entire armies and reducing humanity to a state of helplessness and slowness..."

Bond: "Lovely! Trapped in molten fudge, we can hurl insults at each other, and the first to cry is a loser..."

Blofeld: "You and I are geniuses... we can sweep around any limitation and find success... by the way... I can see your nosehairs quite clearly when the camera stops moving."

Bond, to waiter: "Please... I said shaken... but slowwwly....."

Ok. Ok. I don't think HDV is that bad. Or maybe it is.

:grin:

 

[wabbit]

I was thinking a small portable Honda generator because they are less than 50 Dbs and I might be able to put portable sound proofing between it and the actors.

Gotta say "sound proofing" a generator is not a simple task. As a rule if you are using a generator on set then you have to put it very far away from the camera. Proper sound proofing is heavy and not too portable.

Best

 

[Konrad]

Here's a "what if" situation... what if we had to do the next Bond movie with the Z1 and had to work around it's apparent limitations....

HDV sucks but you can get around it by capuring the output from the Z1 direct to something better and hiring a sound guy to record the sound and a clapper board operator or you could just wait for the HVX

 

[Alex Leith]

HDV sucks but you can get around it by capuring the output from the Z1 direct to something better and hiring a sound guy to record the sound and a clapper board operator or you could just wait for the HVX

Of course you'd have to get the clapper op to clap slowly otherwise you wouldn't be able to see it through MPEG artefacts! Hee! Hee! :shocked:

 

[Konrad]

Of course you'd have to get the clapper op to clap slowly otherwise you wouldn't be able to see it through MPEG artefacts! Hee! Hee! :shocked:

Goon One :beer: