Who's thinking about NOT upgrading

P

paulcurtis

Veteran
A counter thread. A devils advocate thread to the FS700. I haven't made my mind up yet, i need to see more real world footage and tests to understand whether the differences are sufficient. I think i will change however (i'll say that upfront), but here are some more businesslike observations

- No date/price on 4K and how many really need the 4k (it's the 12bit out that's more interesting to me). The 4K recorder might be another 4k for all we know.
- If you have a rig then you've probably got NDs (nice to have on the camera, but many cameras don't have any)
- Slow mo is lovely, but really how often will you shoot at 240. Once all the excitement has died down will you really be using it
- Slight better build, but then you may have a rig assembled already, the new handle might not be important

I know that the FS700 has just destroyed the trade in/second hand market for the FS100 judging by a conversation i've just had with a reseller. I don't believe any of the pricing yet is official or set in stone, nor is the delivery date. It's just been announced and yet it seems everyone is scrambling to crown the new king and get rid of the 'old'

Is the 1080p image really *that* different? Are the artefacts improved (edges/sensor reflection)? Those kind of things might make a worthwhile upgrade.

We still wait the FS100 firmware and there's hope that they may have tweaked the PP.

Also what else looms at NAB (for sony and everyone else), why clear the decks before NAB if there's nothing else planned?

cheers
Paul
 
At this stage I am more interested in using the FS700's hand remote (what ever you want to call it?) that has the zoom rocker on it, with some nice Alpha lenses on the LA-EA2 adapter after this Firmware update. I've not seen anything picture wise that makes me want this camera that bad over the FS100. as a sports shooter, the frame rates are wildly cool and I can definitely see myself benefiting from that, but picture wise (from what i've seen) I just cannot justify it, it just doesn't look that much better.

And I know it's fairly early to say that, which is why I am still holding back a bit and seeing what happens and how it all plays out, hoping we see some sort of significant difference in the production model of the camera.

I really do hope Sony brings out an F5 or something at NAB, that's the sort of upgrade I am looking at making.
 
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I was shooting DLSRs

I decided I wanted a 1080 camera with an S35 chip or larger with little moiree, onboard XLR and an HDMI lead that didnt fall out every 10 seconds

The FS100 delivered that spec in a small but akward package at a great price and threw in 60p 1080

I said to myself - I will stick with this until a really good cam comes down the line

There are some (eastern europeans?) busking on a bridge in one of the films - the sun behind them renders very well - the new camera looks to be a goodie - a step up

Not to mention the NDs of course.. and the high frame rates

But really Ill probably just stick with the 100 for the moment

My next desired spec is a Raw shooter so the FS700 doesnt really fit anyway

I really dislike a non Raw workflow..

Enjoy the choices and dont get sucked in to a need for the latest and greatest - the stills arm of my business still functions fine with a 2005 Hasselblad and 2008 nikon D3 - I have not thought at all about stills cameras since the D3 gave me what I wanted

Functioning AF, and clean 1200 ISO and 250 flash synch

Now - not wanting to knock the FS700 - which I think is a great looking bit of kit it will not sate all of your desires (I guess)

-Its not raw
-Its not got great ergomonics
-You need an evf or monitor and to pwer the same
-the Sony lenses are not wonderful (I would like Stabilistation/AF and a good manual feel from a lens - the sony lenses lack the last element)
-the buttons are not tactile (try a D3 sometime)

Knowing when to feed your desires for more bigger better is an art form

S
 
I'm gonna stand by fs100 and get the most out of it. I want to wait for the nxcam fs??? that comes out after the fs700.
 
Won't be changing cameras anytime soon. Based on my budget/clientele, the FS100 is about all I was willing to spend for return on investment.

To address your hyphens, paul:

-Absolutely no need for 4K since my work goes to 1080i commercials, youtube and corporate powerpoint presentation-type stuff
-I need to get some nice ND filters or a matte box. But I'm not buying an entirely new camera just for some built-in NDs, as crucial as they are. I'm new to the FS100, and first impression are it is absolutely awful for exteriors w/o some modifications.
-Last time I checked, the FS100 does slo-mo, albeit not so "amazing" as the 700, it's good enough for me.
-The FS build suits me well enough. (actually don't get me started on all the ergonomic shortcomings. This guy said it all already)

everyone is scrambling to crown the new king and get rid of the 'old'
Click to expand...

This cycle is bound to become more prevalent, so I think this will be the last big purchase I make for a while and just rent going forward.
 
Good call Paul. While the fs700 has some cool features, (slomo seems great) It literally has nothing I NEED over the fs100. Call me crazy, but when I need ND, I actually like the variable nds. (adjust the nd to match the apeture I want, vs , select the nd then set the apeture to get exposure.....) <- when I have no control over lighting.
4K is a pipe dream as far as I'm concerned. Not only do I not need it, Sony hasn't kept up on their promises so far, why should I think they're going to in the future?

Over all, It seems like a great camera from what I've seen. Lots of nice improvements, but I've seen nothing that shows me I should take an early loss on my fs100s just to get those few benefits of the new cam.
I use a mic and cam to earn a living, dropping 8K now for a couple minor improvements or 10-12K later should the 4K thing actually happen.......Just don't make biz sense to me.
 
Budgetary considerations will keep me at the FS100 level for now.
Although I am interested in the JVC HMQ10, which is about the same price as the FS100.
 
A point that was raised in another thread was how the 4k resolution will alter low-light performance given that the sensor is still the same size. (i.e. different size photosites).

That is one of the FS100's greatest abilities, so we'll see if it retains that crown at least.
 
The only attraction 4K has for me is being able to reframe shots in posts, being able to do zooms, pans in post, and being able to apply stabilization better in post, all the while keeping a full resolution 1080P picture.

But I have to wonder ,is dealing with 4K files even practical with the computers we have now? My fast computer has to churn many hours to manipulate the file sizes I have now, and making multiple backups already consumes a lot of disk space.
 
Kraut69 said:
The only attraction 4K has for me is being able to reframe shots in posts, being able to do zooms, pans in post, and being able to apply stabilization better in post, all the while keeping a full resolution 1080P picture.
Click to expand...

Those are valid points and would probably be (for me) the best use of 4K. Unfortunately, the fs700 doesn't shoot or record 4K.
 
I will not be up-grading if you can call it that for a while. I bought the FS100 because it was right for the work I do and will be doing. I don't need a 4K camera right now and if I need super duper slo mo I will rent for that shoot.. I made the decision to buy the camera knowing that NAB was around the corner and there would certainly be new cameras on the market with new features. It was a big decision for me to move from Panasonic to Sony since the past four cameras I worked with were all Panasonic. I was among the people holding off on a camera change waiting for Scarlet. When it was released it was not what I was waiting for, way too expensive by the time you finish outfitting it at the Red store and unproven at the time. The AF100 and the Micro 4/3 format along with never having been asked for it by clients and a long list of issues I kept reading about on this group made my decision to go with Sony's FS100. I don't regret it for a second. It is not the be all end all. If I were to upgrade, it would probably be a tough decision between a C300 and an F3 and not a FS700. I will say that Sony haas certainly pissed me off by delaying the firmware release, not putting something out there for the LA-EA2 and subsequently upgrading it. Now that I have the camera, I will say I am not nuts about the ergonomics, and had to spend significant dollars on Berkey Systems gear to make it work in a run and gun situation. I would not have had to go the the same extent with other choices like the C300. But when you add that with the cost of some descent glass an EVF and Variable ND a Ninja for 4:2:2 you are still around $10K which is cheap for a camera that puts out such stunning images.
One the best things about user groups is you can find the answer to most questions on your gear in a second, one of the worst things is that your gear is outdated the day after you buy it and the groups will have you second guessing yourself forever. I shoot for a living and have a solid client base that trust me to provide the best quality work for them at a fair cost and I believe that the FS100 will do that and I also believe it will pay for itself in less than six months.
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One feature that no one seems to care about is the ability to shoot still pictures. For me, this is huge! I am doing a lot of stop motion animation stuff latelly and a lot of time we need to merge animated sequences with realtime or slow motion footage. For now I use a 5D MK II for stills and the FS100 for video. But sometimes we need to get the exact same framing from a stop motion sequence to a live action one. In this case we use the FS100 and we extract the frames to create the stop motion effect. It's really a pain.

Just for that I'm happy to see the FS700 comming in my line of work.
 
Some nicely balanced comments.

I would imagine that if the 1080p image is so detailed (being down sampled from 4k as it should, like the C300) then the 4K source might appear soft by comparison. I suspect most people will end up scaling that 4K to 1080p but benefit from the greater apparent dynamic range that scaling would yield. However having that dynamic range off camera in 1080 in the first place would be better for me.

So that really depends how much that 4K add on is going to be and when.

Reports suggest the sensitivity is roughly the same but are they gaining that sensitivity with the downsampling from 4k compared to big pixels. Is the 4K source image going to look noisy by comparison?

The 700 seems more robust overall, that's a plus point.

Shooting stills? Can't see that really. A NEX camera with e mount is peanuts and incredibly high quality - better dynamic range. So just get one of those. You could even mount it on top if you liked.

Seeing how the 700 works with the LA-EA2 is very important. There was talk of face tracking and setting focus points/racks on the LCD. Now i don't know if that's just wishful thinking or whether it's something to 100 would be able to do too. I have just as much invested in Sony ZA glass, and i want to make full use of that.

I'd imagine any issues like rolling shutter now are complete non-issues, the read out speed of that sensor must be insane. For fast movements that could be a plus point too.

There was talk on the abelcine blog that the sensor was 4:3 with the full 11.6mpix. It doesn't look like that's the case but then abelcine are usually pretty accurate. Imagine if this *was* a 4:3 sensor the anamorphic opportunities. That would be very interesting.

Roll on NAB and more info... And that sodding FS100 firmware update (With you there Brian...)

I would upgrade so long as on no counts would i be losing any quality with the move to 4K...

cheers
Paul
 
When I bought my camera back in November, I spent as much money as I could on camera body, lenses, rig parts etc. I was starting over from scratch with everything, buying the best quality stuff. 5 1/2 months later, I'm still buying essential components. There is no way in hell that I would even consider taking a loss on my FS100, when I haven't even used it enough and to it's fullest potential either.
I can appreciate the FS700 and what it all has. Who wouldn't want that camera over FS100 if they had a choice? Who wouldn't want an Alexa too over that? I can and do geek out on this stuff as much as anyone. I do find it all very cool.
However, being grounded in what my current needs are and what I can afford is my reality check. I'm gonna wait for at least the next product cycle.
 
paulcurtis said:
Shooting stills? Can't see that really. A NEX camera with e mount is peanuts and incredibly high quality - better dynamic range. So just get one of those. You could even mount it on top if you liked.
Click to expand...

You understand that my requirement is not to shoot everyday stills. The big plus is to shoot still AND video FROM the same camera. For stop motion work, that meand that my stills and live action footage will have the exact same look and should grade perfectly. That also mean that I will be able to get the exact same framing is I want, going from stop motion to live action in the same sequence. Even mounting the still camera on top of the video camera is not enough for that.
 
Jean-Philippe said:
You understand that my requirement is not to shoot everyday stills. The big plus is to shoot still AND video FROM the same camera. For stop motion work, that meand that my stills and live action footage will have the exact same look and should grade perfectly. That also mean that I will be able to get the exact same framing is I want, going from stop motion to live action in the same sequence. Even mounting the still camera on top of the video camera is not enough for that.
Click to expand...

That's a fair point, although i suspect you'll be in the minority!

The 700 wouldn't have a physical shutter though, it would be entirely electronic so i don't know whether that would cause any issues?

cheers
Paul
 
paulcurtis said:
That's a fair point, although i suspect you'll be in the minority!

The 700 wouldn't have a physical shutter though, it would be entirely electronic so i don't know whether that would cause any issues?

cheers
Paul
Click to expand...

Not at all since there is no movement involved in the shots when we shoot stills for stop motion. The movement in between the stills. I just hope we will be able to trigger the shot using the remote controle or a lanc controller.
 
I have a good amount of respect for threads like this Paul. Everyone tends to get hyped up everytime something new arrives. The same thing's been going on with DSLRs and other cams. Logic is that there's always something "better" around the corner.... and there always has been. But we need to remember ourselves that it was only 10-20 so years ago that cinematographers and videoguys were putting out great material on film!!

The only reason we need 4k is because they are making new things that can utilize 4k..... besides that.. bleh, who cares really.

I know we got to keep evolving, but it doesn't have to go this fast. Funnily enough I was saying the opposite not too long ago, but threas like yours Paul makes one think.

The only thing I really miss from the FS100 is greater dynamic range like I'm used to have when shooting 22mp stills in raw. But I know that's a whole other ball park when it comes to video :(
There are sooo many other things that I would love to do though; Like learning to light and compose like the big guys.

So thanks for cooling the hype down a bit. I for one will be hanging on to my 100 for a while and spend money and time on getting the best out of that!
 
As an f3/slog owner the fs100 is perfect for me. Use it as a bcam or smaller projects. The fs700 doesn't offer anything more for what I use it for. Now if they come out with an external 12bit raw recorder and an slog upgrade, I'll sell both my f3 and fs100 and get one. A package like that would kind of make the f3 obsolete IMO.
 
I will sell my FS100 and all of my DSLR's once 4K becomes the television standard. I'm pretty sure everyone on this forum does not (except a select few) view or edit their footage on 4k Monitors. 4K is just silly right now, IMO, since everyone is watching it on 2K screens.
 
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