Who's a vegetarian?

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Man I really wanted to bow out of this thread, but I can't resist... I have to clarify my points. YES, I eat meat... yes, I enjoy a good steak... there's a place here in STL that has world-class prime rib like you can't imagine.

BUT... I sometimes consciously choose NOT to eat meat... and I always try to consider and respect the views of people around me... especially those that I would call friends.

So I don't think it's hypocritical to eat meat and understand and respect a vegetarian's views... and I still admire people who live consciously... even on matters that I may choose to only be aware of part of the time. There are vegetarians on DVXuser and I just wanted to be sure that any vegetarians would feel comfortable talking in a thread that asks them to identify themselves.

The logic in this is that most people probably eat a little too much meat anyway... and that most people would be healthier if they ate less... at the very least it would facilitate fat-loss. I have some friends who could care less about the moral issue and they adopted a vege diet just to get in better shape and it worked... the only reason I got defensive on the side of vegetarians when I'm not one... is that most people go through life with a numb attitude of selfishness... and while I HATE preachy people... I like that some people live with extra consideration of others.
 
I think its about time to let this thread fade on down the list of threads... what do you guys think?

It was a fun little thread... then a more serious one.. .then one that became a bit personal... and so on... I think it has run its course...

Jason
 
My apologies if I added to the noise.
I can resist any discussion which includes both morals and evolution.
Both those topics fascinate me.

No harm intended.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
I would say no organism has a funcational capacity against which there is a convincing argument regarding its use at some point in its past. The presence of an adaptation today merely points to the fact that it was once advantageous - once the environmental pressure is taken away for that particular adaptation, it's not simply going to dissapear from the population (assuming it is not detrimental).
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The 'pressure' is still 100% there, in that it's inefficient to bring together the essential (for humans) nutrients in meat, in vegetarian form. Sure, it's possible with a broad base of knowledge, and access to the necessary supplements. But take away the industrial-age availability of those meat-substitutes, and the natural requirements are still there - and best satisfied by an omnivorous diet.


Luis Caffesse said:
Yes, and we've also developed way to do many other things better - like refine sugars and starches. Those aren't necessarily good for us either. I don't really see the fact that we improved on something as a justification for its necessity.
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We still need sugars and starches; the fact that some of us over-indulge due to their greater availability, doesn't mean that we need the baseline amounts, any less.

Ditto meat. The fact that meat has become over-available, doesn't mean that we need the nutrient content, any less. And meat's the natural place to get it. Sure, dedicated vegetarians can get those nutrients elsewhere - in an unnatural fashion.

Luis Caffesse said:
If anything, I think we can at least agree that while human definitely have phisological traits which point to an adaptation for meat eating - humans today seem to eat much more meat that the human body actually needs (IF it needs any, that is).
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Sure, people over-eat the meat. Which, again, doesn't mean that a certain amount of meat isn't a useful source for those nutrients best gained there.

There's no question, at all, that human beings need nutrients found in meat. Yes, those nutrients can be found elsewhere...with an inefficient and unnatural investment of effort.

Luis Caffesse said:
I would also point out that most vegetarians on the average are in better health than the average population.
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I'm not convinced. The vegetarians I've met span the spectrum, from sickly yellow-toothed scarecrows, to sleek bronzed health-radiating adonises (and adonettes). Maybe some people's metabolisms, are more vegetarian-friendly, than others'...

Luis Caffesse said:
Most people don't pay much attention at all to what they eat. So while it may be more 'troublesome' to be vegetarian - that alone doesn't mean its an 'unnatural' state.
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Well, take away all 'unnatural' modern technology - which means taking away all the supplements that vegetarians can use, to get the nutrients they're not getting from meat. Which also means limiting the eater, to what's available within a few days' walk, that they can catch or gather, themselves.

Still think they'll be in radiant health, without occasional meals including animal protein? Where else will those small amounts of nutrients come from?

Your natural food sources will have to provide what you need. And it's those supplements, and 'exotic' (in the sense that you are unlikely to find them, foraging) foods, which are an unnatural nutritional crutch.

Luis Caffesse said:
It's troublesome to watch what you eat no matter what your diet is.
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If you are as sloppy an eater as I am...yes.



I guess this is a terminally long-winded vote for 'don't close it,' too.
 
All i will say, is that Vegetarianism is scarce in places where making a living is more difficult. Vegetarianism is a choice, and a luxury some americans europeans etc.. choose to follow and in someplaces of the world the religously devoted choose to adhere too. I believe the Bhuddists dont eat meat.

But like sadmax was implying, you would NEVER have met a conscious vegetarian (other than bhuddists) 200 years ago. Modern Conveniance and market situations provide us with the means to make choices liek these. i for one, while not a vegetarian, am totally for a persons right to eat what they wish. My uncle infact is on a "raw diet". he doesnt eat anything thats cooked. He lost 30 pounds, his skin is glowing, and he looks 15 years younger. There is something to be said for a man who eats vegetables and raw fish everyday, TOGETHER, in a balanced diet.
 
I think Jainism has been around for that long, too.

While I was on 'Lost,' I spent nine months eating virtually nothing but sushi and salads, and bicycling sixteen miles per day.

Came home ten shades darker, and twenty pounds lighter.
 
yea, eversince i started being a fulltime DP, ive gained 15 pounds... too much nervous snacking and good crafts services and Wrap dinners.... Oy.... good food, but im getting fat.
 
Luis Caffesse said:
- I would also point out that most vegetarians on the average are in better health than the average population. :)
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I'd emphasize average population.

But let us look at the minority who are the fittest ?

I'd bet they're eating meat like it's going out of style.

(Fair and balanced)
 
TimurCivan said:
try 197...... you wimp....
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I wouldn't have guessed it... I think I have that picture someone photoshopped of you and Mark ingrained in my head. I just picture you as a big headed (literally, not figuratively), Turkish, L.P. :)

125lbs... beeootch.... A very unhealthy, ,undernourished 125. I never gained any freshman 15... Lost it.

Later,
Jason
 
Being a vegetarian is not healthy. Not all proteins are created equal. There are different amino acids and compounds which affect your body, especially your vascular system and connective tissue.

The BodyShop CEO was a lifelong vegetarian with no history of illness. Yesterday she dropped dead of a massive cerebral hemmorage at 64.
 
From my experience

I've known 3 vegetarians in my life; each of them had this kind of pasty, weak, pekid vibe going on. Zero muscle and generally not looking fit or healthy

I'm just saying, from my own expereince
 
Haven't responded until now because I was out having dinner - and yes, I ate meat.

Sad Max - I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the details of this one.
In the end, I think we both agree than an omnivorous diet is easier to maintain anyhow.
And to be clear, I wasn't saying that human beings are 'better off' being vegetarian - only that I didn't think eating meat was a requirement for the human body to live a healthy and long time. But at this point, we're really discussing some very minor points that probably only interest the two of us anyhow.
:)

You brought up some great points, and gave me a bit to think about here.
If you want to continue this discussion - feel free to PM me, seriously.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to set out some chicken to thaw for tomorrow.
:thumbsup:
 
I feed the birds on a regular basis and use a live sparrow trap to keep the population under control. There is one particular animal that has learned how to get into the trap, kill and eat a few sparrows then get out again.
I nicknamed him "the beast" because for the longest time I didnt know what was doing it. I thought it might be a vole. I was surprised as hell to find out it was a freakin chipmunk!. He is easily recognizable because he is much thicker in girth than the other chipmunks. Occasionally, I see him feeding on the ground like the others, he'll work his way next to a bird, then lunge at it. None of the others do that. I guess once he got that first taste of meat that was it.
 
Jason Ramsey said:
I wouldn't have guessed it... I think I have that picture someone photoshopped of you and Mark ingrained in my head. I just picture you as a big headed (literally, not figuratively), Turkish, L.P. :)

125lbs... beeootch.... A very unhealthy, ,undernourished 125. I never gained any freshman 15... Lost it.

Later,
Jason
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yea but im 6.0Ft, so like the normal 175 i usually am, looks thin.
 
J.R. Hudson said:
From my experience

I've known 3 vegetarians in my life; each of them had this kind of pasty, weak, pekid vibe going on. Zero muscle and generally not looking fit or healthy

I'm just saying, from my own expereince
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Probably going overboard with it.

Like my across-the-street neighbor who runs.

Had to take a break a while back...my Father found her writhing on her livingroom floor, screaming in pain.

Apparently, all that running shook up her innards, and she'd twisted an intestine.
 
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