White balance on the run
- Thread starter scorsesefan
- Start date
Peter C.
Veteran
The 12mp sensor was the core of the success of the A7s3/FX3 the lower resolution allow them to read out quicker and without the added processing that generates heat issues and draws down the battery faster and need for crop or line skipping to reduce the pixels.
It would seem the newer version is going to come with a higher resolution sensor bring all those issues back. Beyond the sensor they can add the developments in AF. Not sure what else. They do like to recycle sensors so is this going the A74 sensor with a faster processor or the stacked sensor?
For those clamoring for internal ND I can't see that happening. They use that feature to sell the FX6 and I've never seen a manufacture want to go back and do significant redesign of the camera.
It would seem the newer version is going to come with a higher resolution sensor bring all those issues back. Beyond the sensor they can add the developments in AF. Not sure what else. They do like to recycle sensors so is this going the A74 sensor with a faster processor or the stacked sensor?
For those clamoring for internal ND I can't see that happening. They use that feature to sell the FX6 and I've never seen a manufacture want to go back and do significant redesign of the camera.
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scorsesefan
Veteran
Improved color science?
scorsesefan
Veteran
FWIW I'm leaning towards returning the ZR and picking up an fx3 or waiting out what Sony comes up with next. I'm just not digging Nikon's color science and I'm finding the h265 in this camera sub-par compared to Sony's implementation in the fx3. It's just soft and mushy. The R3D NE is really noisy at ISO 6400 which is disappointing because the lure of this camera was Red image quality at high ISOs. Of course RAW and noise go hand in hand so you can't have you're cake, etc. Nikon's documentation/guidance/support of this camera has been frustrating at best. There's no accurate way to measure your exposure in R3D NE that I can see so you're basically guestimating. It would be nice if Red implemented goal posts/traffic lights but that may not come for awhile. This camera is multiple firmware updates away from professional usability. Brandon Talbot hypothesized that Nikon was developing a vlogger camera years ago and when they bought Red they mashed it into this camera. I think they rushed it to market. Oh well, for $2200 I think it's a great camera for non-critical work or young filmmakers just entering an eco-system, but for an old Sony dog like me it's tough to learn new tricks.
Bassman2003
Veteran
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I will keep my eye on them to see if they get it together in future models.
But what will Sony be able to add to a new release that competes with the RED Raw color? Maybe an internal Raw recording capability would lift the image quality and help us move beyond the LUT stuff?
But what will Sony be able to add to a new release that competes with the RED Raw color? Maybe an internal Raw recording capability would lift the image quality and help us move beyond the LUT stuff?
Peter C.
Veteran
I took a peek at some first looks. The larger lcd screen is nice the image quality looks nice especially the high light roll off caveat when using R3D. The menus are difficult, exposure tools,...
I agree its odd choice to combined a cinema camera with a small pocket range finder, doesn't make sense. A filmmaker isn't going to want that form factor and an entry level budget filmaker isn't going to want to shoot raw and deal with those huge files and color grade. This seems to be the case with these companies they are designed by marketers who aren't film makers so the throw a bunch of features into a camera without much thought.
Again all these cameras will yield nice images I don't know a modern camera that doesn't.
I agree its odd choice to combined a cinema camera with a small pocket range finder, doesn't make sense. A filmmaker isn't going to want that form factor and an entry level budget filmaker isn't going to want to shoot raw and deal with those huge files and color grade. This seems to be the case with these companies they are designed by marketers who aren't film makers so the throw a bunch of features into a camera without much thought.
Again all these cameras will yield nice images I don't know a modern camera that doesn't.
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scorsesefan
Veteran
I'm hoping the fx3II is 6K, has e-vnd (doubtful) and improved color science. Specifically, Sony could improve the highlight rolloff. Global shutter would be nice, but if they do that DR will most likely take a hit. Internal RAW isn't that big of a deal to me personally, but I think Sony would do well to implement it in their cheaper bodies.
scorsesefan
Veteran
I agree with you, Peter. There's a lot of questions and confusion surrounding this camera. I joined the FB page for the ZR and it's kind of chaotic because you have a bunch of new users scrambling to figure things out. It doesn't seem like Nikon is putting as much effort into helping folks out with the rollout as they did hyping the camera.
Peter C.
Veteran
I'd gather Nikon has no intention on making a true cinema camera because they own Red and it would only compete against them and hurt sales. So this is let's sprinkle in some cinema features into enthusiast camera for sales hype. Much like when Apple added ProRes to the iPhone or Panasonic with the Arri Lut. It's to make average users feel more pro or premium.
Sure you could find a way to use the ZR maybe as a light weight gimbal camera with internal Raw. Nothing wrong with it just not for me and I'm not interested in it.
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morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I makes perfect sense to have micro cinema cameras. stick em in a fridge or in your F35 cockpit.
But that true cinema 'crash cam' is a tiny market.
To me nikon need to service the nikon users.. corporate stills guys whos client want a few clips.
This means
sensible codec
ND Ibis evf
scorsesefan
Veteran
True. The problem with the ZR is the sensible codec (h265) is not great at the moment.
Peter C.
Veteran
I'd prefer to put beer in a fridge and I don't own or fly a F35. But other than that those are great applications for the ZR.
Bassman2003
Veteran
The difference between the Red Raw recording and .mp4 recording was quite large. Makes me wonder if it is due to the Red color science or just the huge amount of data being captured in comparison? Would Sony color and detail improve substantially with an internal codec/data rate improvement? Sony has a good mp4 implementation but in that comparison I posted, the Red stuff did look a lot better. Even on a camera without massive DR. The magic might be a little better color and massive data. Or the 12MP sensor in the Sony is just revealing its limits.
scorsesefan
Veteran
Regarding the ZR, speculation is that because of its passive cooling they wanted to throttle bit rates in h265 hence the quality hit. Not confirmed though... I think the Sony look is more of an intentional thing. I spoke to a Sony cinema line mgr a few years ago here in NYC and asked why Sony cameras can't look like Red or Blackmagic. His response was basically that the majority of their clients are shooting docs, corporate, reality TV, sports, etc. and that they have gotten used to the "immediate" look Sony has cultivated. I don't necessarily agree with him, but that's their mentality.
NorBro
Major Contributor
I don't know what exactly classifies as a grade anymore, but trust that every human on the planet would be thrilled if you provide them a product (their visual product) that looks like a Hollywood movie rather than a home video or documentary.
Bar is set as high as the stars...anything marketable - that's supposed to be "professional" - is interesting, has a look, cinematic motion, etc.
I mean, I know if you (anyone) film a play and sell DVDs or what not to parents then the most important thing is to see their kids (and clearly), but if they would see them on stage like it's a Marvel movie scene they would love it even more.
In the early days of RED, a lot of people talked about the psychology of booking more and better jobs for anything and everything by making their work look like movies. Same conversations happened a few years later on Blackmagic forums.
I would say grades for everything are more appropriate today than ever before.
Bar is set as high as the stars...anything marketable - that's supposed to be "professional" - is interesting, has a look, cinematic motion, etc.
I mean, I know if you (anyone) film a play and sell DVDs or what not to parents then the most important thing is to see their kids (and clearly), but if they would see them on stage like it's a Marvel movie scene they would love it even more.
In the early days of RED, a lot of people talked about the psychology of booking more and better jobs for anything and everything by making their work look like movies. Same conversations happened a few years later on Blackmagic forums.
I would say grades for everything are more appropriate today than ever before.
Bassman2003
Veteran
I would say the NFL broadcasts are looking the best they have ever looked. The black levels are no way crushed and the overall image visibly has a lot of DR in the mid tones and controlled highlights. So there is room to look great inside of immediate world. You just need the tools in-camera or real time.
cyvideo
Veteran
I would hope it looks good. It's all off Sony WDR cameras. Those cameras definitely have the DR spread to deliver what you are describing. On most modern HDR TVs you should see HLG broadcasts at around 11 stops of dynamic range.
I agree. I watched the final and the pictures are virtually faultless. But that's what you get from the HDC-F5500V. They deliver a fantastic dynamic range. A guaranteed live HDR output of 13 stops from their S35 global shutter sensors. When shooting 4K UHD they can deliver 2000 Lux at T11 at 60p, with a signal-to-noise ratio of -62dB. That is truly top draw performance in anyone's language.
The Super Bowl budget allowed them to run:
97 Sony HDC-F5500V Series Broadcast System Cameras (I find that quite amazing! At US$66,000 per camera head, that represents $6.4 million)
1 x Sony HDC-P50A 4K (Flying Fox Cam)
1 Sony FR7 Cinematic PTZ Camera
3 Sony FX6 Full-Frame Cinema Cameras
1 Sony Alpha 7 III Mirrorless Camera
1 Sony VENICE 2 Digital Cinema Camera
Plus a host of Venice and Burano cameras for the half-time show.
The specs for those main HDCs reads as follows:
Super 35mm CMOS Sensor
Global Shutter
High Dynamic Range (HDR) Support
4K UHD Resolution
12G-SDI and IP Network Connectivity
Variable ND Filter (1 clear and 2-5: Variable ND(1/3-1/256) all on a motorized 3 window ND wheel)
High Frame Rate (HFR) Capability
Multiple Log and LUT Options
Flicker Reduction Feature
Enhanced Colorimetry with Wide Color Gamut (WCG)
Modular Camera Body Design
Multi-Format Compatibility for HD, 2K, and 4K Output
Versatile Lens Mount Compatibility (B4 and PL Mounts)
Advanced Remote Control via RCP/MSU Units
Supports HDR Live Broadcasting (S-Log3 and HLG)
Chris Young
HDC-F5500V Series Broadcast System Camera
https://h7.cl/1dMU8
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Peter C.
Veteran
So what did you end up doing? Did you return the ZR? I watched a few more videos it really takes sometime to sort through all the hype sponsored stuff to actually get a true sense of the camera.
My final view of the ZR is as follows:
- The large LCD makes it possible to run it without rigged up an external monitor. Which is useful for low profile public filming without a permit.
- Ports: The mini hdmi isn't great but could be over come with locking cable on cage. Also related to the large screen anything plugged into the ports get in the way of flipping the screen.
- The body: no attachment points like FX cameras but if your running camera not rigged isn't an issue. The one screw underneath you get the dreaded twisting camera plate. There is no grip to hold the camera properly now you have to go back to rigging it to fix that. The memory card being in the battery compartment causes access issues on a tripod.
-The Codecs: While the RD3 is amazing looking, I didn't realize how high the bit rate is like 1,500 kbs or 1hr = 512gb For anything other than serious movie type stuff where this will be paired with Red cameras that doesn't make sense for the average user. The other codec there is a significant loss of quality in particular the ProRes and H265. Strangely enough read this will not record in true 24/30/60 meaning if you're using timecode with more pro cameras you can't sync this. Also you can't externally record RD3 or there's some limitation. I wouldn't be surprise the reason is to prevent over heating.
- Sensor: Partially stack sensor seems to have less dynamic range and more noise. I've seen one review show that in lower light situation you need to use the second base iso 6400 and expose to the right and its fine but he said in general because it doesn't have false color or Red's exposure tool its difficult to get the right exposure.
- No fan: people say it doesn't overheat other say the battery will die or you'll fill the card up if using RD3 before it will. Others say 1hr.
- IBIS its nice they included it and works great for hand held
So my final thoughts this is an interesting camera but it has a very niche use case that I can't see myself benefiting from. The image quality and colors with RD3 is stunning if you can deal with the rest of it.
My final view of the ZR is as follows:
- The large LCD makes it possible to run it without rigged up an external monitor. Which is useful for low profile public filming without a permit.
- Ports: The mini hdmi isn't great but could be over come with locking cable on cage. Also related to the large screen anything plugged into the ports get in the way of flipping the screen.
- The body: no attachment points like FX cameras but if your running camera not rigged isn't an issue. The one screw underneath you get the dreaded twisting camera plate. There is no grip to hold the camera properly now you have to go back to rigging it to fix that. The memory card being in the battery compartment causes access issues on a tripod.
-The Codecs: While the RD3 is amazing looking, I didn't realize how high the bit rate is like 1,500 kbs or 1hr = 512gb For anything other than serious movie type stuff where this will be paired with Red cameras that doesn't make sense for the average user. The other codec there is a significant loss of quality in particular the ProRes and H265. Strangely enough read this will not record in true 24/30/60 meaning if you're using timecode with more pro cameras you can't sync this. Also you can't externally record RD3 or there's some limitation. I wouldn't be surprise the reason is to prevent over heating.
- Sensor: Partially stack sensor seems to have less dynamic range and more noise. I've seen one review show that in lower light situation you need to use the second base iso 6400 and expose to the right and its fine but he said in general because it doesn't have false color or Red's exposure tool its difficult to get the right exposure.
- No fan: people say it doesn't overheat other say the battery will die or you'll fill the card up if using RD3 before it will. Others say 1hr.
- IBIS its nice they included it and works great for hand held
So my final thoughts this is an interesting camera but it has a very niche use case that I can't see myself benefiting from. The image quality and colors with RD3 is stunning if you can deal with the rest of it.
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scorsesefan
Veteran
Hey Peter,
I wound up returning it for all of the reasons you detailed, but mainly because it doesn’t fit my work. The h265 just doesn’t look good and that would be my mainly used one. The NR is just really over aggressive. Not sure if they’re doing that to bump up the DR numbers. The body lacks good ergonomics (there’s barely a grip) and the buttons are few and lack customization. There’s also a lack of reliable ways to measure exposure such as false color or traffic lights. As you mentioned the sensor of the z6iii is not optimized for cinema use. It’s like they tried to supercharge a 4 cylinder Honda Civic. Definitely rushed this out to market… I wound up picking up a slightly used fx3 which of course isn’t as sexy but will do what I need alongside my fx6
I wound up returning it for all of the reasons you detailed, but mainly because it doesn’t fit my work. The h265 just doesn’t look good and that would be my mainly used one. The NR is just really over aggressive. Not sure if they’re doing that to bump up the DR numbers. The body lacks good ergonomics (there’s barely a grip) and the buttons are few and lack customization. There’s also a lack of reliable ways to measure exposure such as false color or traffic lights. As you mentioned the sensor of the z6iii is not optimized for cinema use. It’s like they tried to supercharge a 4 cylinder Honda Civic. Definitely rushed this out to market… I wound up picking up a slightly used fx3 which of course isn’t as sexy but will do what I need alongside my fx6