Which speakers should I use for playback?

Kit Hannah said:
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But I will say that a $100 pair of Sony, Sennheiser or Audio Technica headphones will be nice and provide you with as much as you're going to need if you're not doing ultra critical mixes, ie. huge budget features or major artist recording. For the indie film guy, corporate a/v guy, etc, They'll be great.
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Actually I'm going to disagree with you on that. Headphones are awful to mix on. They give you a totally unrealistic presentation of the mix. The exception would be if your audience is going to be listening on headphones.

They also are very exhausting for your ears. You can edit on headphones if you have to but you shouldn't mix on them.

That said there is a box that was made by Lake Audio that made it possible to mix on headphones reasonably, but it ran $1,800 and you can't get it anymore.
 
Not sure about film, but in music and other audio production, as a rule we never mix with headphones (at least not with headphones alone). They are great to keep in-the-loop as part of your mix reference, but I agree with Noiz, they're not the same as listening to a good set of speakers in a decent room, and they will lead to ear fatigue faster if you're not careful.

But, faced with the choice to use great headphones versus a set of Dell computer speakers, I'd probably go with the phones too.

GJ
 
Steve House said:
Actually was responding to the thread title "What speakers to use for playback..." :)
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OK but what you quoted "Low priced" and "hear everything" was not from the "title" but from an exchange where he was talking about headphones not speakers.
 
Noiz2 said:
Actually I'm going to disagree with you on that. Headphones are awful to mix on. They give you a totally unrealistic presentation of the mix. The exception would be if your audience is going to be listening on headphones.

They also are very exhausting for your ears. You can edit on headphones if you have to but you shouldn't mix on them.

That said there is a box that was made by Lake Audio that made it possible to mix on headphones reasonably, but it ran $1,800 and you can't get it anymore.
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Cool, disagree all you want, but I have used headphones successfully in much of my work. Is it my "preferred" way to mix? Of course not, but just as someone else said, I would rather be on some decent headphones than some poor speakers. If money is not an option, yeah, have a treated room with great monitors, but depending on who your intended audience is, it may be the guy's best choice for the money. He was balking at $100 for headphones, he's not going to be affording great studio monitors. I think we are talking about apples and oranges here though... I assumed the OP's intended use was to edit, not mix music with. His reference to "on the set" made me believe it was audio for video.
 
Kit Hannah said:
Cool, disagree all you want, but I have used headphones successfully in much of my work. Is it my "preferred" way to mix? Of course not, but just as someone else said, I would rather be on some decent headphones than some poor speakers. If money is not an option, yeah, have a treated room with great monitors, but depending on who your intended audience is, it may be the guy's best choice for the money. He was balking at $100 for headphones, he's not going to be affording great studio monitors. I think we are talking about apples and oranges here though... I assumed the OP's intended use was to edit, not mix music with. His reference to "on the set" made me believe it was audio for video.
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Well you would be in a very small minority then. Also your overstating the case. The option is not between high end speakers and a perfectly treated room and head phones. You can get pretty cheap near fields (as in under $300) in a room that is fairly dead like a bed room and be MUCH better off than with headphones.

If you have done it a lot "successfully" (I put that in quotes because I'm not sure how your measuring that, I'm assuming at minimum you mixed something that a client paid for and they were happy with the mix) then you are doing a good job of compensating. If you know your system, whatever it is, and how it translates to the destination format you could mix on just about anything.

Anyway I didn't say you couldn't mix on headphones I said it was a bad choice, and you kind of saying the same thing, just not as strongly.

You may have been thinking editing but you wrote about mixing.

But I will say that a $100 pair of Sony, Sennheiser or Audio Technica headphones will be nice and provide you with as much as you're going to need if you're not doing ultra critical mixes, ie. huge budget features or major artist recording. For the indie film guy, corporate a/v guy, etc, They'll be great.
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And in my post I said I was talking about mixing and that you can edit on headphones.

In the end, for the benefit of the OP, the only thing we really seem to disagree about is how far down from ideal mixing on head phones is. I'm putting it way down the list and your putting it maybe mid way.

The one other point for the OP to keep in mind is that both of us are pretty experienced and know what is going to change between a headphone mix and what it sounds like through speakers. The OP won't so he should, if he mixes on headphones, find a way periodically to play the mix on decent speakers so he can learn what he needs to tweak to have it translate better.

I will agree that if $100 is the end of the budget then headphones are a better choice than the speakers he would be able to get.
 
Well my intent was to edit and mix. I want the best sound I can have since I'm learning to make a feature film for festivals in the future. Perhaps I could save up for speakers in the future, and I'll just get those Sony headphones that were recommended to me now. Headphones are stereo only though, so if I have like six tracks in a movie of sound to play back for review, then do I need six speakers?
 
If he wants to mix 5.1 he does. I guess strictly speaking one could get by mixing in stereo guessing what the result would be played back on a surround sound system but it seems pretty kludgy to me.

Ironpony, don't even THINK about 5.1 surround until you've got a lot more experience under your belt.
 
Okay. Originally I had an audio engineer who was going to do it, but he had to drop out cause of some personal life problems. I could do in stereo. One person took a loot at a rough cut and wanted me to enter it into the local film festival, and a friend of mine wants to get it into another festival, which is what I want too. Would I be able to enter it with mono or perhaps stereo at my experience level, or does it have to be surround, to match their standards?
 
ironpony said:
Okay. Originally I had an audio engineer who was going to do it, but he had to drop out cause of some personal life problems. I could do in stereo. One person took a loot at a rough cut and wanted me to enter it into the local film festival, and a friend of mine wants to get it into another festival, which is what I want too. Would I be able to enter it with mono or perhaps stereo at my experience level, or does it have to be surround, to match their standards?
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Stereo should be fine... but if you are mixing for film festivals and theater screenings, you must be very, very careful. You absolutely must keep control over mix levels, keeping dialog between -24dB and -10dB (with whispers, regular speaking voice, and heated argument at natural relative levels within that range). Occasional, sudden, loud sounds (coughs, claps, shouts, yelps, explosions) can peak at -6dB. If you try to mix everything loud, or without really paying attention to the meters, you can cause your audience some pretty severe listening discomfort.

Side note: if you're mixing for Internet or DVD (home viewing), that's a different story.

This is also a place where headphones are completely inappropriate. Honestly, without a good monitor system that's properly calibrated for SPL level, you're going to have to work even harder to get the right mix.

As for stereo vs. mono, remember that dialog and Foley are all centered (basically, anything that comes from the actors and their movements). Most FX will also be panned center. Music will likely be stereo, and some FX such as ambient sound beds/backgrounds will be stereo.

As you don't have much experience in this, it would be very beneficial to find any other sound person - even moderately experienced, and ideally with the right mixing setup - to help you out.
 
You can see from these posts that there are different ways that skilled people accomplish the same tasks. Part of it is what you are used to, that is, working in a familiar environment. Personally, I never use headphones for mixing, but I do use them for editing where I do a lot of drop-ins or sound removal of clicks, creaks, coughs, etc. The reason for this is *sometimes* the mix will sound fine on headphones--but will sound really weird on speakers, but rarely the other way around. I would say anecdotally that that is a fairly common story in the circles I work in.

As far as speakers, I don't use nearfield but I understand why some people do. I use a pair of medium priced B&Ws. I have four reasons for this. One is that a lot of studios use B&W (not all, obviously). Two is that they represent a typical setup for a middle class listener, and scale well into those who have expensive gear--I can take that mix up the hill and get similar results on my friend's super expensive stereo . NB, no one I know (except audio engineers) listens on nearfields, so that is a factor as far as tweaking for the end user. Three is that I like to play the final mix for all sorts of people, and I like to do in a home stereo environment. I have colleagues who do the opposite, wheel clients into the tech room, etc., but your average listener can be uncomfortable in such a scenario. That's a philosophical choice. And lastly, the final product is played on these speakers along alongside my entire music collection, providing an ongoing series of reference frames for my work compared to everything else over a period of many years. Same stereo, same speakers, same room.

Now you can spend a lot of money on speakers, but most people don't. So I went for a pair that would not be embarrassed by the upscale competition, were fairly neutral (none of them is really neutral) very detailed, and revealed any possible editing problems. You could argue that they are slightly more forgiving of treble issues than most, but I think that represents consumer choice as well.
 
ironpony said:
Okay. Originally I had an audio engineer who was going to do it, but he had to drop out cause of some personal life problems. I could do in stereo. One person took a loot at a rough cut and wanted me to enter it into the local film festival, and a friend of mine wants to get it into another festival, which is what I want too. Would I be able to enter it with mono or perhaps stereo at my experience level, or does it have to be surround, to match their standards?
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If their standards require you to submit a surround mix in order for your film to be accepted then obviously that's what you do. But I would be very, very, surprised if that was the case. A well-crafted stereo mix will sound better than a mediocre surround mix any day - don't fall for the hype.
 
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Dr. Dave is talking from a music perspective. Traditionally there are a number of differences between film and music systems, but actually now that a good portion of videos are going to play over decent home systems that is probably not so true for the video market. Pretty much all editors (in film) use near-fields because it's a rare edit room that is big enough for anything larger. If you cant get your speakers more than four feet or so from your ears near-fields are what you should be using. Full sized speakers wont converge enough by the time it hits your ears and the sound will change dramatically depending on where your head is.

Mix stages (where big films are mixed) have a full theatre system set up. So on a big film you are only talking about editing on near-fields.

If you have the room go for it because the mix will translate easier. I could just about put full sized speakers in the new space... May have to think about that.
 
This is an interesting, and useful thread. I'm in a somewhat similar situation.... I want to spend some money to make my bedroom as friendly to doing a DIY sound edit and mix of a short film I shot. I'm purchasing Pro Tools now and I have a pair of Sony MDR-7506 Headphones. But I "know" (or rather hear people say) that this is not an ideal setup. I'm on an iMac which has a fan that I can definitely hear (it's not terribly loud, but it's definitely audible). Other than that, the room is pretty quiet with little to no street noise or other noise from the house. I want to submit the film to festivals.

So I have two questions:
(1) What are the basic principles / things I should know about creating a good sound environment for editing and mixing a short film via protools?
(2) I'm willing to spend some money to create a good sound environment, but I would like to keep it under $1,000. What can people recommend in terms of how to budget this money?

Cheers to this great community!
 
qwerty123 said:
(1) What are the basic principles / things I should know about creating a good sound environment for editing and mixing a short film via protools?
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Walls, ceilings, and hard floors bounce sound around and create issues. Corners enhance bass frequencies and can muddy what you hear. Hard, perpendicular surfaces create standing waves. So you want to knock down and diffuse reflections on walls and the floor, and do something about the bass in the corners.

If you have a hard floor, an area rug is a great start. Furniture around the edges will help tame the perpendicular surfaces as well. If you're carpeted, worry more about the walls.

Use some diffusion/absorption on the walls. The best way to tame the trouble spots is to sit in your mixing position and have some one else walk around the room, slowly, with a mirror against the wall at the level of the monitor speakers. Wherever you can see the speakers in the mirror, that's a place that needs to be treated. Add some bass traps to the corners and, if you have room in the budget, a little diffusion on the ceiling.

qwerty123 said:
(2) I'm willing to spend some money to create a good sound environment, but I would like to keep it under $1,000. What can people recommend in terms of how to budget this money?
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Is that $1k for treatment and monitors? If so, that's going to be a stretch. Just a good set of monitor speakers can cost up to, or over, $1000.

As for treatment, there are some good, basic kits from Auralex that should get you in a good spot. Maybe get a Roominator D36 and a LENRD bass trap kit. Or get the Roominator Project 2. So you're just under $500 at that point, leaving a chunk for monitors. If you expand your budget a little bit, you can get a good set of speakers (Genelec, or Mackie HR824, or...). Good monitors aren't $500/pair; they're $500 each.
 
@Alex H. Thanks! Very Helpful! Just a follow-up... I'm definitely a beginner at all this and will be mixing my own films, so I'm wondering what are the lowest end monitors you would recommend? I know that good ones cost at least $500 each, but are there one's that aren't good but still, maybe just barely, useable for a newbie to get his/her feet wet?

Also, there appears to be some back and forth about whether headphones are appropriate for mixing. I'm still unsure *WHY* headphones might or might not be good for editing and mixing. I can live, more or less, with the possibility of fatigue.
 
Alex H. said:
Use some diffusion/absorption on the walls. The best way to tame the trouble spots is to sit in your mixing position and have some one else walk around the room, slowly, with a mirror against the wall at the level of the monitor speakers. Wherever you can see the speakers in the mirror, that's a place that needs to be treated. Add some bass traps to the corners and, if you have room in the budget, a little diffusion on the ceiling.
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Nice. It is a great "low budget tool" for treating a room. Too many people just go out and buy Auralux (or other acoustic foam) and plaster every inch of the walls. 1. that will NOT help, it will kill the room completely except for lows, and the room will sound odd/your mixes will come out treble heavy due to over compensating in the mix. 2. overspending money.

If you decide down the road to move your mixing desk to another part of the room, you need to remove the treatment you put up and re-do the process.

Keep in mind some other things too:

Know where your mix position needs to be in the room. Stay away from corners.

Your monitors need to be positioned properly. Nearfields need to be within 3-4' of you with an equilateral triangle. 3-4' between the monitors also. (that distance is flexible, but don't push the envelope too far) This gives you good stereo imaging. If your monitors have both a high freq. driver and cone, try to get the height of the monitors so the area between the driver and cone is at ear/eye level. Monitors need to face you, unobstructed, at your mix position.

Just a few handy placement tips.
 
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qwerty123 said:
@Alex H. Thanks! Very Helpful! Just a follow-up... I'm definitely a beginner at all this and will be mixing my own films, so I'm wondering what are the lowest end monitors you would recommend? I know that good ones cost at least $500 each, but are there one's that aren't good but still, maybe just barely, useable for a newbie to get his/her feet wet?
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Maybe the Mackie HR624. Possibly the Yamaha HS80M. The thing is, with a system like that and no sub-woofer you'll be challenged to get a true picture of the low end.

The thing to watch out for with cheaper speakers is that they're very colored, so frequencies that may sound too strong or too weak may sound that way because of the monitors and not because of the mix. Stay away from Alesis monitors for this very reason.

qwerty123 said:
Also, there appears to be some back and forth about whether headphones are appropriate for mixing. I'm still unsure *WHY* headphones might or might not be good for editing and mixing. I can live, more or less, with the possibility of fatigue.
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Headphones are great for editing, hearing/eliminating little pops and clicks and smoothing out splices. For mixing, they generally give a very inaccurate representation of the mix. Things that sound okay in the cans may be buried when you listen over speakers, or they may be too hot. It's especially hard to accurately gauge dialog levels in the midst of music and FX.
 
Again: very helpful! I'm thinking about two Yamaha HS50M monitors plus the HS10W subwoofer. Will be at significant disadvantage with getting the 50M vs the HS80M? I'm not planning to really crank up the sound or anything. Thanks for being so helpful and tolerant of all these noobie questions!
 
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