I will run a test between the two and post the results. You have intrigued my curiosity. I know for sure in 30p mode on the hfs100 it is jagged, will double check the 24p on HFS100 vs HMC40 using the reverse telecine in compressor, which is normally what I have done.
Which cameras have IR issues?
- Thread starter asafb
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I will run a test between the two and post the results. You have intrigued my curiosity. I know for sure in 30p mode on the hfs100 it is jagged, will double check the 24p on HFS100 vs HMC40 using the reverse telecine in compressor, which is normally what I have done.
Just to make sure: you have to use the log and transfer option in FCP and set preferences in log and transfer to prores using the AVCHD plugin make sure to uncheck remove advanced pulldown. Then go do the compressor thing.
I always thought the DR of a still camera was better than a video camera, and never bothered to check. Thanks for clearing that up.
Mico,
Everything done like you suggested. Here are the results. I lent out my HV20, but will test it as well when it gets back at the end of the week.
HFS-100 24p - Log and Transfer no pulldown removal Prores - Compressor Reverse Telecine
HMC-40 24p
HFS-100 30p from Symphony Concert -- Live footage
EX1 - Prime example of IR issue with this camera - Yes all of these appear black to the eye....
After reviewing, I believe Adam Wilt is correct that interlaced encoding is used on the canon in 30p and 24p modes in addition to being placed in a 60i stream. I do believe the new canon with its Native 24p mode will have different results.
This is the reason I really would have liked the HMC-40 not to suffer from IR. It is the only camera in its price range that does not suffer from interlaced encoding as far as I am aware. Can't afford 5 ex1r's
. Hopefully Jan will be able to find out why it handles IR so poorly and provide us some solutions or perhaps mine is flawed.
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There is something really wrong with what you got. Don't know how you got that but I did my own test just to prove that yours is not right. Something is definitely wrong in your compressor settings or your camera.. I shot a lot of straight lines for this pic. This is a crop from the full 1920 image.
The only other thing i can think of is you used the first couple of frames or the last couple of frames from your shot. Sometimes theres one or two frames at the beginning or end of a clip that is messed up because of the unflagged issue . Try again following the apple doc exactly and grab an image from the middle of the clip and use quicktime conversion to create a still image. Theres no way you should be getting something like that. I;ve shot with the Hf10 and Hf11 for over a year and have never seen this after conversion.
Heres my test pic using a canon HF11 24p at full 24Mbs:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7839/canoninterlacetest.jpg
The only other thing i can think of is you used the first couple of frames or the last couple of frames from your shot. Sometimes theres one or two frames at the beginning or end of a clip that is messed up because of the unflagged issue . Try again following the apple doc exactly and grab an image from the middle of the clip and use quicktime conversion to create a still image. Theres no way you should be getting something like that. I;ve shot with the Hf10 and Hf11 for over a year and have never seen this after conversion.
Heres my test pic using a canon HF11 24p at full 24Mbs:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7839/canoninterlacetest.jpg
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Here is the original footage. See what you come up with. Also, I have 3 of the HFS100's and they all look the same. Still curious.
Clip.mov
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I feel bad for hijacking this thread for this issue so this will be my last post about this. You can PM me and I can take you through the process step by step if you like.
Rereading your recent post I wasn't clear if you are you just reverse telecining in compressor without first dropping the "apple prores 422 for progressive material" setting onto the clip first. Once thats done you then set the frame rate in the inspector encoder to the custom 23.976 frame rate then in inspector again go and set frame controls to on and set de-interlace to reverse telecine.
You have to prores twice. Once in log and transfer from your BPAV MTS file from the camera with remove advanced pulldown unchecked and then go into compressor.
The mov pic you posted doesn't do me any good as its mov and MTS is what I start off with to get true 24p progressive.
Rereading your recent post I wasn't clear if you are you just reverse telecining in compressor without first dropping the "apple prores 422 for progressive material" setting onto the clip first. Once thats done you then set the frame rate in the inspector encoder to the custom 23.976 frame rate then in inspector again go and set frame controls to on and set de-interlace to reverse telecine.
You have to prores twice. Once in log and transfer from your BPAV MTS file from the camera with remove advanced pulldown unchecked and then go into compressor.
The mov pic you posted doesn't do me any good as its mov and MTS is what I start off with to get true 24p progressive.
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Just like your instructions. I put the first prores version from log and transfer on the previous reply so you can test as well. It might just be an issue with this series of canon's.
Here you go, a zip of the SDHC card straight from camera with about a 5 sec clip.
PRIVATE.zip
Here you go, a zip of the SDHC card straight from camera with about a 5 sec clip.
PRIVATE.zip
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Just used your footage and put it through compressor and the jaggies that were in the original were still there after conversion. Used your zip file , went through all the magic, put my canon hf11 footage in the same timeline, scrolled through all the footage , checked item properties and your footage has interlace artifacts at origination and does not go away with conversion. my footage ha no interlace artifacts. I looked up the HFS100 and it does the same as my cameras 24p in a 60i stream.
Check out Crank 2, they used a bunch of HF10's. No interlace. Maybe it is the camera model if you say all your cameras show this but I am confused as to why.
Check out Crank 2, they used a bunch of HF10's. No interlace. Maybe it is the camera model if you say all your cameras show this but I am confused as to why.
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Mico,
I think it is aliasing and not interlaced artifacts, it is the only way it can be explained. I have read other places where the HFS100 shows way more aliasing than the HF10. I do wish to thank you for your efforts and also apologize for getting off topic in this thread.
Still waiting to hear from Jan regarding the HMC40 IR issues.
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
Hi,
So why is the HMC40 at 15dB gain and the rest of the cameras not? Seems that this alone would have an impact as to how much of the IR is emphasized. Sorry I dropped off the planet today, and even more surprised the system didn't notify me that you had posted back.
Best,
Jan
So why is the HMC40 at 15dB gain and the rest of the cameras not? Seems that this alone would have an impact as to how much of the IR is emphasized. Sorry I dropped off the planet today, and even more surprised the system didn't notify me that you had posted back.
Best,
Jan
Well, under same lighting conditions, the HMC40 requires about 12-15db of gain compared to the EX1/r to get the same exposure. The 5D was at 3200 iso and I don't remember what the HFS100 was at, probably about 15db as the HMC40 and canon seem about the same sensitivity.
Jan, wouldn't it seem fair to say that IR mostly occurs indoors under lower light conditions? At 0DB it would be hard to even see anything as it would be super dark.
HMC40 no gain
HFS100 no gain
The canon even at 24DB gain does not have an IR issue but does suffer badly from aliasing.
If you would like me to test another way please let me know. I don't have an real life example coming till the 23rd of this month.
Trust me, I would really like the HMC40 to work...
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Barry_Green
Moderator
IR occurs mostly under tungsten lighting conditions. If you had indoor daylight lamps, you wouldn't see it indoors.
IR contamination can also occur outdoors, but you need a lot of ND filtration to overcome the visible portion of the signal, letting the heat portion through.
IR is more heat than light (well, heck, we can't even see it, so it's not even visible light at all). So a tungsten or incandescent light throws off a ton of infrared, just like it throws off a lot of heat.
IR contamination can also occur outdoors, but you need a lot of ND filtration to overcome the visible portion of the signal, letting the heat portion through.
IR is more heat than light (well, heck, we can't even see it, so it's not even visible light at all). So a tungsten or incandescent light throws off a ton of infrared, just like it throws off a lot of heat.
Jan,
Here is a pic from video I took tonight at the Symphony. As you can see, the HMC-40 does indeed suffer from IR contamination. I would say it is worse than the EX-1 in most cases. Needless to say I am highly disappointed. Can you confirm that this is an issue with the HMC-40 and not just the one I have ?
I do not want to tell others about the issue if it is just mine.
Here is a pic from video I took tonight at the Symphony. As you can see, the HMC-40 does indeed suffer from IR contamination. I would say it is worse than the EX-1 in most cases. Needless to say I am highly disappointed. Can you confirm that this is an issue with the HMC-40 and not just the one I have ?
I do not want to tell others about the issue if it is just mine.
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
At what gain setting is the camera? Some parts of this picture looks a little washed out.
Thanks,
Jan
Thanks,
Jan
