This post makes me grateful and nostalgic. Just to remind myself how lucky I am, I walked outside and shot footage of the landscape outside my house by the light from the MOON!!!! LOL. Pocketable S35 sensor shooting clean ISO3200 with a shutter of 1/15, F1.7. (NEX5N) The lens cost 35usd, and the cam was less than 600usd!!! Indeed Cowpunk52...."We've come a long way, baby"....and it makes me smile to remember it! Mad love to DVXUsers everywhere!!!
Which announcement were you more satisfied with?
- Thread starter Hutchman
- Start date
This post makes me grateful and nostalgic. Just to remind myself how lucky I am, I walked outside and shot footage of the landscape outside my house by the light from the MOON!!!! LOL. Pocketable S35 sensor shooting clean ISO3200 with a shutter of 1/15, F1.7. (NEX5N) The lens cost 35usd, and the cam was less than 600usd!!! Indeed Cowpunk52...."We've come a long way, baby"....and it makes me smile to remember it! Mad love to DVXUsers everywhere!!!
I posted this earlier in another thread (and I got this originally from Steve Castle's post):
http://translate.google.com/transla....impress.co.jp/docs/news/20111104_488632.html
If this translation is right, Canon's goal is to take 40% of the digital cinema market by 2015. That is an amazing statement if you think about it. FORTY percent from ZERO as of today. Canon is not known to make idle statements. What could they possibly do in three years to take 40% of the market?!! They are either delusional or they having something(s) up their sleeves. The mind boggles at the thought and this must be of great concern to RED (and Arri and Sony for that matter).
http://translate.google.com/transla....impress.co.jp/docs/news/20111104_488632.html
If this translation is right, Canon's goal is to take 40% of the digital cinema market by 2015. That is an amazing statement if you think about it. FORTY percent from ZERO as of today. Canon is not known to make idle statements. What could they possibly do in three years to take 40% of the market?!! They are either delusional or they having something(s) up their sleeves. The mind boggles at the thought and this must be of great concern to RED (and Arri and Sony for that matter).
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Red is trying to take over BOTH High-End photography and Cinema in one big swoop next spring.
Red is going after Canon's Stills division and Medium Format photography this Spring 2012
in the next round with the 8K+ resolution 617 and 645 format bodies, already announced on roadmap
long ago. The biggest challenge was already accomplished thru ASIC design with the Epic...
Can You imagine any Photographer not buying into Red in order to be continuously
snapping away 32MP+ RAW images at 24 fps? It will be "THE NEXT BIG THING" in the photo world.
I see Canon eventually going in the EXACT opposite direction of Red with non-upgradeable bodies, High ISO, minimal data rates,
long battery life, cheap media, Expensive lenses and quick workflow ... most likely due to Red's existing RAW patents.
Why do I say that? Name me a DP interviewed last year that didn't request #1 RAW video from Canon, and they didn't deliver...
To me, it was intentional, and mostly likely a legal or licensing issue, not a technical issue.
I think the highest paid film and still pros are willing to put up with the added expense and labor of new RAW film workflow
in digital age to justify their premium, so they'll adopt Red or Sony's RAW workflow for cinema use long-term...
I am also amazed, someone like Nikon or Panasonic has been so slow to jump in full steam,
with nothing but market share to be gained. Maybe some outsider like Samsung goes mirrorless Medium Format
video and shocks everyone in the next two years... Anything is possible.
In the end, I think Arri is going to getting hammered worst by Canon in the long-run here, as Canon and Sony have the deepest pockets
to burn holes thru...
Red is going after Canon's Stills division and Medium Format photography this Spring 2012
in the next round with the 8K+ resolution 617 and 645 format bodies, already announced on roadmap
long ago. The biggest challenge was already accomplished thru ASIC design with the Epic...
Can You imagine any Photographer not buying into Red in order to be continuously
snapping away 32MP+ RAW images at 24 fps? It will be "THE NEXT BIG THING" in the photo world.
I see Canon eventually going in the EXACT opposite direction of Red with non-upgradeable bodies, High ISO, minimal data rates,
long battery life, cheap media, Expensive lenses and quick workflow ... most likely due to Red's existing RAW patents.
Why do I say that? Name me a DP interviewed last year that didn't request #1 RAW video from Canon, and they didn't deliver...
To me, it was intentional, and mostly likely a legal or licensing issue, not a technical issue.
I think the highest paid film and still pros are willing to put up with the added expense and labor of new RAW film workflow
in digital age to justify their premium, so they'll adopt Red or Sony's RAW workflow for cinema use long-term...
I am also amazed, someone like Nikon or Panasonic has been so slow to jump in full steam,
with nothing but market share to be gained. Maybe some outsider like Samsung goes mirrorless Medium Format
video and shocks everyone in the next two years... Anything is possible.
In the end, I think Arri is going to getting hammered worst by Canon in the long-run here, as Canon and Sony have the deepest pockets
to burn holes thru...
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I'm skeptical about this 617 and 645. The last time we heard about them AFAIK, was Nov 2008. They were both to be delivered by Spring 2010 for $45K and $55K each. Personally, I'm doubtful it will happen soon, if at all.
Red cameras will be used in some stills situations, but they will not make a dent in the overall stills market. Most photographers won't give up an optical viewfinder and the Epic is way too big, heavy, power hungry and expensive compared to a normal pro DSLR. The other thing is RED doesn't have the decades of experience in phase detection autofocus and light metering like Nikon and Canon.
digital_walnut
Active member
I think you have some misconceptions about how microprocessors work - if a chip that's manufactured to run at 2GHz misses spec, it may still function perfectly well at 1.75GHz with no detriment to the end user. Intel, AMD, etc. all resell microprocessors like this, and nobody complains. These aren't chips that are "meant to be thrown away," they are perfectly usable if you can find a use for them, and manufacturers (including Red) tend to do so. I've seen nothing to suggest that they aren't also tapping a source or producing internally ASICs that are purposed solely for the Scarlet, and given the thousands of pre-orders they've had rolling in, I'd be really surprised if they didn't.
Erich Ocean
Active member
I'm not saying the Scarlet-X ASICs don't function correctly. I'm saying these chips did not meet the specs for a single camera on RED's roadmap prior to Nov 3, certainly not the 2/3" Scarlet fixed, the S35 Scarlet, or the Epic-S. Jim spoke about the ASICs at the event on the 3rd very specifically: these are chips that had no other use at RED, given their existing roadmap. Then, in response to Canon and the need to end the three year wait on the Scarlet, RED re-purposed these previously useless ASICS for the newly-conceived Scarlet-X.
Which is great, better to use the chips than not!
I'm not surprised at all that RED is having trouble getting Epic-class ASICs manufactured. For all I know, they could have 10x more ASICs that'll work in the Scarlet than the number of Epic's they're scheduled to ship. If that's the case, that's great! That'll cover as many as 20K or more Scarlet-Xs at no additional cost to RED. $20 million+ in business for previously "bad" ASICs is pretty sweet, not to mention all the accessories and media they'll sell.
And presumably, the manufacturing of the ASICs will get better over time. Either that, or RED will slowly up their prices to compensate for the low yields, which Jim did say was much lower than they anticipated. I'd be surprised if this wasn't the primary limit on their ability to get Epic's out the door.
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thelateshowwithsanjuro
Active member
I agree with most of what you said except for this part. Red didn't have decades of experience in anything to do with high resolution, RAW, high end digital cinema or 'DSMC' cameras either.
The difference though is that on Nov 3, Canon pushed Red with a complete product that is (almost) ready to hit the shops.
For the past couple of years, Red had only been threatening the industry with the prospect of the original Scarlet which we now know is vapourware. That Scarlet never existed as a complete product the way the C300 is.
I don't think Red is out to "take over" other markets. Red came out of a concept for a unique camera that did not exist. A practical Bayer raw camera system that can shoot motion and stills with equal quality. That technology is still unique to RED. Compete and sell a lot of cameras based on their own merit, yes. Boot kick a fossilized industry into developing products we all wished for, yes. Jannard commented more than once that if the big guys were making the kind of camera he himself wanted, Red wouldn't exist.
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That's a good point and as a company they did not have that much experience. But individually, the main people there (and perhaps other engineers we don't know about) did have a lot of experience in what they were doing. Jannard's main team are all folks from the industry. Ted Schilowitz was product manager at AJA Video Systems. Stuart English came from Panasonic Broadcast & Television. Graeme Nattress has been doing software for a long time and is known for his Final Cut Pro plugins. Deanan Dasilva came from Dalsa's digital cinema division (although he joined RED in early 2007). The Dalsa Origin was the first 4K digital cinema camera and its output was an uncompressed, RAW Bayer pattern 16-bit image.
Anyway, my point is RED's experience is mainly in video cameras. I'm not sure if they have people experienced with TTL autofocus and metering. It would be difficult to incorporate this into the RED camera because you'd need a mirror or prism in the lens path to redirect to the AF and metering sensor. The other advantage Nikon and Canon have is their very sophisticated evaluative TTL flash systems. In contrast, Jannard is against flash and thinks continuous light is the future in still photography. I don't know about that. Flash is still way more power efficient, especially for fill flash in daylight.
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dustylense
Veteran
You will never, NEVER, remove strobe systems from professional photography. NEVER!
J Davis
Veteran
Red doesn't have a chance of even being a significant player in photography. Not going to happen. No one is asking for 32MP RAW images at 24fps. It's not the way we work or even a work flo that would be even interesting to most photographers. Its totally contrary to the whole energy of a shoot. So, no, this photographer isn't the slightest bit interested in Red for photography. Good luck trying to take photographers away from Canon and Nikon. I'll take the 1DX any day over Red. Red doesn't even use an optical view finder do they? You really think a photographer is going to stand for actually not seeing the subject they're shooting. EVF just isn't the same. Only a video guy would think that is acceptable. That's just what I want to do, spend two hours on a shoot and then spend another two hours rewatching the shoot and selecting all the usable still moments.
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It won't be another 2 hours, it will be at least 2-4 days. Trust me I know. I've done it.
Unless you have clearly defineable moments (determined ahead of time) it is too time consuming a process. It is great for cinemagraphes though (combined photo and video images where one part is moving and another is not).
Scarlet-X is very similar in specs to the originally announced Scarlet S35 of 3 years ago except for performing significantly better in most ways. For $7k brain Scarlet S35 was 12 bit 11-1/2+ stops DR with very similar frame rates and data rate equal to Red 1. I would say both Canon and Red, just as Sony and Panasonic have, responded to the tidal wave of market interest in large sensor motion cameras. Red planned to produce a lower priced S35 camera all along, the only question was where would it fall in the lineup and at what price.
Ending the 2/3" program for now was a serious disappointment for many of us, including me. But I don't see much discussion among us about replacing it with another manufacturer's small chip camera. All the interest is in the larger formats. In that sense it was probably a wise move for Red to bring Scarlet-X to market now rather than incur further delays in the program to fix issues with the fixed lens Scarlet that likely would have pushed up the price significantly anyway.
Ending the 2/3" program for now was a serious disappointment for many of us, including me. But I don't see much discussion among us about replacing it with another manufacturer's small chip camera. All the interest is in the larger formats. In that sense it was probably a wise move for Red to bring Scarlet-X to market now rather than incur further delays in the program to fix issues with the fixed lens Scarlet that likely would have pushed up the price significantly anyway.
thelateshowwithsanjuro
Active member
I'd agree with this too. IMO the Red cameras are digital video/cinema cameras that can simultaneously do stills very well.
If Red was to attempt to break into the stills photography market, they'd have to produce something with a form factor that is more suitable for still photography first, that can do digital video really well.
dustylense
Veteran
Look. My primary profession is that of a stills photographer. RED will never be a choice for top stills shooters because of strobe photography. Go outside with a single monolight at 1200 watts that costs way less than HMI and you can battery power it and overpower the sun and freeze subjects. Not gonna happen with a RED Epic, EVER. Then there is workflow. I can shoot tethered to a computer with an 80megapixel back and e-mail a 20megabyte jpeg proof in a matter of less than 5 minutes with only a camera, laptop, and cell coverage with 4g. And I can do that for far less than the cost of an Epic brain using an SLr. (80 phase one is pretty expensive).
I have been a mixed shooter all of my life. Medium format and 35mm stills, 16mm film, and video in a variety of formats. Not much studio work. Lots of news, event, industrial, nature documentary type work for marketing, training, and trade publication. Most of it done with available light, sometimes supplemented and controlled cinema style with lighting, filters, shades and bounce reflectors when needed. Absolutely loath flash fill and have only used it as a last resort.
For me Scarlet or Epic are as close to an ideal camera as it gets. In one camera Scarlet can replace a 5d or higher class SLR, and 35mm/16mm format motion cameras for most purposes. But more than that it blurs the boundaries between motion and stills in ways that will lead to new shooting styles and new aesthetics that traditional cameras can't do.
The ability to manipulate raw motion images with the same power and creative flexibility that one can do with raw stills is very appealing. It is not a universal replacement for other cameras, it is a unique alternative.
For me Scarlet or Epic are as close to an ideal camera as it gets. In one camera Scarlet can replace a 5d or higher class SLR, and 35mm/16mm format motion cameras for most purposes. But more than that it blurs the boundaries between motion and stills in ways that will lead to new shooting styles and new aesthetics that traditional cameras can't do.
The ability to manipulate raw motion images with the same power and creative flexibility that one can do with raw stills is very appealing. It is not a universal replacement for other cameras, it is a unique alternative.
Personally, I think a DSLR has more of a chance of evolving into a DSMC than RED's cameras evolving into a DSMC, especially in the near future. The DSLR already has all the advance still functions in place. A camera like the 1Dx is the pinnacle of still camera design and performance in the 35mm format. It's already the right form factor and weight for a still camera. All it needs now is the right sensor and back end electronics to eventually record RED level footage. They're not there yet, but with time this should be feasible at no cost to the still photo functions.
In contrast, RED's job of incorporating high end still features is much harder because they're coming from the digital cinema direction. Things like optical viewfinder and advance AF tracking would be very hard and time consuming to do. Also, shrinking an Epic to DSLR level size and weight would be a challenge. Instead they would have to start designing a new camera but in the form, size and weight of a DSLR. Trouble is, a DSLR is already this way so they have a huge head start. But who knows, maybe RED will crack that nut...time will tell.
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Good post Letzring. I have a different take on things. I think Canon's announcement was indeed historic because of the bigger implications. It's hard to appreciate that now because we live in the present. But I think three years from now Canon's impact on the industry will be huge. We'll look back and say Nov 3, 2011 was historic and the C300 started it all. At least that's my guess but of course I could be wrong.
What makes me believe this is Canon's own ambitious goal to take 40% of the digital cinema market by 2015. They need a lot of fantastic cameras for that to happen! Who knows what they'll come up with! What we do know is they have combined technologies in sensors, processors and optics. No one else has this unique combination of in-house capabilities (at least not to the depth that Canon has).
I think they eventually can take on the rarified field of super high end digital cinema--the Alexas, F65s and Epics of the world. It will take time because Canon is slow and methodical, but then again it might be not as slow as you might think. Looking at what happened with DSLRs, it's astonishing what they have done in the past 10 years.
I actually think the C300 will be used more than the Scarlet once both cameras are out there.
If people are interested, they should check out this excellent audio interview with Canon's Larry Thorpe. Canon knows the C300 is not their flashship or even the next generation. It's just a very good first step.
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/j...y-thorpe-on-the-c300s-design-and-origins.html
What makes me believe this is Canon's own ambitious goal to take 40% of the digital cinema market by 2015. They need a lot of fantastic cameras for that to happen! Who knows what they'll come up with! What we do know is they have combined technologies in sensors, processors and optics. No one else has this unique combination of in-house capabilities (at least not to the depth that Canon has).
I think they eventually can take on the rarified field of super high end digital cinema--the Alexas, F65s and Epics of the world. It will take time because Canon is slow and methodical, but then again it might be not as slow as you might think. Looking at what happened with DSLRs, it's astonishing what they have done in the past 10 years.
I actually think the C300 will be used more than the Scarlet once both cameras are out there.
If people are interested, they should check out this excellent audio interview with Canon's Larry Thorpe. Canon knows the C300 is not their flashship or even the next generation. It's just a very good first step.
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/j...y-thorpe-on-the-c300s-design-and-origins.html
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The term DSMC is a RED invented trademark, and these cameras fit the description now. Epic is the first digital motion camera to ever be accepted for stills submission by Getty Images. Side handle has flash sync port on it and a stills/motion switch to change modes. Stills mode firmware version is not finished yet, but as fast and often as Red updates their firmware it will be there long before you ever see a DSLR recording raw motion footage internally or probably even externally.
Scarlet is light for a motion picture camera, full up weight with touchscreen LCD, side handle, battery, and a Canon short zoom falls around 8lbs for Epic from user reports, not as light as a DSLR, but for me it doesn't need to be as i mostly shoot off of either ground or body supports of one kind or another. It is not any heavier than by old Bolex 16mm was. My GL2 weighs about 4lbs and for me is too light for stable handheld video shooting. A bit more weight damps small body movements nicely.
I understand stills shooters being attached to their reflex viewfinders, but I think them an anachronism on a digital camera. Not very good in low light conditions and with the possible exception of Sony's new pellicle finder design, useless for motion. A good EVF or LCD with all of its focus assist and exposure assist tools is far more useful to me and the camera doesn't have to be right in your face to use them.
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