What is Hollywood and should it be the cinema of the world?

roxics

Veteran
This has been on my mind since I read an article a few weeks back (I can't find now) where the author was talking about Hollywood's constant remakes of King Arthur movies. They were suggesting other potential mythological characters to make movies about instead. One suggestion was the Epic of Gilgamesh, which sounds great. However they added the caveat that should such a movie be made, it needs to be made with an all middle eastern cast and crew. And while I understand the motive for that, it got me thinking. Why stop there? My not shoot it in Arabic or some other middle eastern language? At what point is it even a Hollywood movie anymore?

What is a Hollywood movie?

I think Hollywood is a location where a bunch of movie studios sprung up making movies in America for American audiences. I might even argue that Hollywood has been a positive force that helped bind together an otherwise large landmass into a single country. Helping to a create a uniform pop culture from coast to coast. Maybe even better than apple pie, the railroad, and American political forces. At some point Hollywood started exporting those films around the world. With it, they started exporting American culture.

If you think about it, it was inevitable that Hollywood films would become more popular worldwide. Whatever formula those studios came up with, it worked across fifty states, each with subtle cultural variations. So why would it also not work across other nation states? At the very least the ones that spoke English. And so it did.

But now Hollywood seems to be putting a lot of emphasis on appeasing larger and larger crowds. The huge Chinese market for example. Obviously Hollywood is not just a location but a business and they have dollar signs in their eyes.

Every culture and society throughout history has tried to preserve their culture through artwork and crafts. They have passed down legends and stories, music, and so on from generation to generation. At some point Hollywood was that for American culture. In most ways I think it still is, but if it's trying to appease audiences worldwide and audiences are demanding it represent certain stories with certain people in certain locations outside America, is it still American cinema or is it now something else?

To put it another way, should we be asking the Roman empire to become more diverse as it conquers all of Europe and north Africa or should we instead ask it to stop conquering all these places and let them do their own thing, their own way? After all, Hollywood is not the only cinema in the world. There is Bollywood, Nollywood, Chinese cinema, German, Japanese, you name it. Each catering to their given area. Localizing content and legends to their demographic, even if the root of those stories are pulled from somewhere else.

Which is where we get into controversial waters. But it's an argument that should be put out there. When you have white guys like Jake Gyllenhaal playing the prince of Persia, some people say "hey... wait a minute." Understandably. But on the other hand, if you consider that it's made by an American studio, and America is made up of roughly seventy-seven percent white people, and representation matters because people like to see people that are like themselves (usually), then it begins to make sense why there is a white guy playing the prince of Persia. In the same way that we would fully expect Nollywood, which is made up of mostly black Africans, to cast other black Africans to play the roles of characters in a localization of a King Arthur story for their audiences, rather than importing white guys from England. That would be a movie I would love to see by the way.

So I guess the big question is, what is a better route to take? Is it better to have a variety of smaller cinemas in the world, each representing their given culture in a given area for a given demographic, or is it better to have a large umbrella that is trying to be everything to everyone, everywhere? Which is where is feels like Hollywood is starting to go.
 
IMO some of this will take care of itself and already is. The process of cinematic storytelling has become increasingly democratized with technological advancements - shooting on digital, LED lighting, powerful computers to edit on, access to education/internet, online distribution conduits, etc.

Hollywood has been such a powerful and dominant force due to monopolization of resource, knowledge, and distribution channels. Worrying about modulating hollywood's behavior isn't necessarily bad, per se, and advocating for positive change is a good thing. Yet there's a concurrent reality that the very thing that's given it unbalanced influence is already naturally being over-turned, and IMO the solution lies less in trying to police hollywood (less - I didn't say non-existent) and more so (not only, but moreso) in empowering alternative artists and channels.
 
Modern Hollywood is more of a hub for the film and TV/streaming manufacturing than a production center. Its film business is global and, since Europe and the US combined represent about half of the total global box office, its visual appearances are tried and true (until something else appears). For the individual markets, local production (China, India, CIS, South America) fill in the gaps.

The mega expensive VFX laden action films is the accepted "lowest common denominator". Not many people really like them but they're easy to translate into other cultures and languages and provide a unique form of entertainment. And, if you're a Hollywood studio executive, you're looking for a home run because that's your resume and income at once.

Meanwhile, Hollywood has become the epicenter for the burgeoning TV/streaming business, which absorbs far more funding than the first run theatrical releases, albeit with an overlap. Major streamers also do business locally, with the US based independent studios, and internationally. And that business is also booming.

Personally, having seen some French, German and Russian films recently, I'd say that the quality of productions there is below the US cable TV level. The Russian films are generally the worst of the three and Hollywood has over 80% box office share but Netflix is already there and Disney+ should launch around September. That would keep Hollywood an international brand name, even as the production is strewn across the globe.
 
Hollywood's one superpower is its ability to market and distribute films to a global audience. That's the one thing they can do that no one else can and why they are still the filmmaking epicenter of the world.
 
Hollywood is the Spam and Package Ramen noodles of the film world. Cheap, plentiful and many people love it. Some despise it. In the hands of master can be amazing. Cinema is still a fairly recent art form that’s evolving constantly. I hope more great artists emerge outside of Hollywood. Should it be the leader in world cinema? No idea, but as long as it doesn’t squash out unique cinematic visions and stories that from various cultures I’m ok with it for now.
 
Hollywood's one superpower is its ability to market and distribute films to a global audience. That's the one thing they can do that no one else can and why they are still the filmmaking epicenter of the world.

In the old USSR, the entertainment came under the aegis of the Ministry of Culture. It was that office, completely under the control of the nefariously evil Mikhail Suslov, that decided what music, movies and books the Soviet public was allowed to listen, watch and read. Everything else was, if not outright banned, then unavailable for the distribution (the political and the intellectual elite had their own cinema in Moscow where no one else was admitted).

But they could not order anyone to watch and listen to something they didn't want. Even under very rigid state control that jammed the Voice of America, BBC and Deutsche Welle signals, the Soviet citizens still listened to the Beatles, the Stones and, in the 80's, to Amanda Lear. When the VCR's became publicly available in the early 1980's, smugglers made sure than the country was filled with the VHS copies of Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and Jean Claude van Damme. Which meant, as I argue on the various economic sites, that you can sort of control the supply but you can't the demand.

Hollywood is the Spam and Package Ramen noodles of the film world. Cheap, plentiful and many people love it. Some despise it. In the hands of master can be amazing. Cinema is still a fairly recent art form that’s evolving constantly. I hope more great artists emerge outside of Hollywood. Should it be the leader in world cinema? No idea, but as long as it doesn’t squash out unique cinematic visions and stories that from various cultures I’m ok with it for now.

The French make their (cable TV quality) comedies for under $10M. The "cable quality" was mostly in writing. The directing, visuals and the acting were pretty good.
 
I've always enjoyed pointing out how American film is not in the "world cinema" section in the UK.

I also enjoyed pointing out how The King's Speech was part of a British film season when it was on general release in the UK, despite the fact that a minority of the money came from the UK and most of the profits fled to Hollywood, and it's really an American film wearing a union jack T-shirt, as so many are.

With searing irony, the UK Film Council had put about £1m into The King's Speech and was looking at a healthy payday on the basis of its success; it was disbanded on 31 March 2011, a month after the film won four Oscars.

To be completely fair, the UK Film Council was always a complete disaster and those parts of its remit inhereited by the BFI are barely an improvement. Even to say it was disbanded immediately after its greatest success is barely accurate; it put in only a tiny proportion of the budget. The fact that The King's Speech was overlooked by both BBC Films and Film Four is another hideous indictment on the British film industry, and that film is just one prominent example.

If this is typical of the rest of the world, it's hardly a surprise that Hollywood is ascendant.

P
 
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... If this is typical of the rest of the world, it's hardly a surprise that Hollywood is ascendant.

P

It's probably typical in France and Italy. Which is a shame, as there's a boatload of great cinema history in those two nations.

In Russia, the film industry is half-way back to the USSR mode of making "patriotic" movies. Of course, the actual cost of production is a small portion of the expenses allocated by the Ministry of Culture. The rest is simply stolen and channeled to the ruling party officials.
 
USA: big home market. World language. When films have been sold in home country they can be sold easy and cheap to the rest of the world. That is why we have so much crap on our commerical television.
It is a big industry. Just a matter of economics. Big budgets and even bigger marketing budgets.

(India has a huge home market, only their language and taste is different from the rest of the world.)

I run Holland Film Festival and get films from all over the world. Films from France, Italy, Spain, the UK, Iran, Russia, Germany, Canada, India and the USA are very different. They all have their own quality. But the best films share one thing; enough budget.
 
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Modern Hollywood is more of a hub for the film and TV/streaming manufacturing than a production center. Its film business is global and, since Europe and the US combined represent about half of the total global box office,

The English speaking box office. I believe Asia is bigger. Also, if I can find the citation, some one had the figures to show that Mumbai (India) had surpassed Hollywood on all the usual measurements in about 2015/6 and has remained ahead.

Last year PureDrifitng posted the following on DVXuser in the thread on COVID closing Theatres in the US. I found it a facilitating harassment and saved it.

Puredrifting, Los Angeles, Ca. 10:30, 20/08/2020
As someone who works in Hollwyood, I've seen the impending death of what we all think of as Hollywood for about a decade now. The Pandemic just ramped up the speed control to maximum.
The whole "Big Hollywood Movie" mind-set, star celebrity machine, the studios, all of this stuff is relatively unknown and irrelevant to the audience who is most desirable demographically. Their stars are largely people you've never heard of if you are over 25 or 30 and a lot of those "stars" are brands/influencers, not actors. Hollywood even before March was already becoming a parody of itself, every time I would visit the Fox, Sony or Disney lot and take a meeting or do a shoot, everything being done there just seemed old. The mind-set, the wasteful way things are done. The Unions. None of it is nimble, adaptable, responsive, it's all a bit dinosaur-like when you see it close up and BTS. As the article quotes, "This business isn't sustainable", at least not the way the studios do it. The streamers are a bit more nimble and responsive and best of all, they answer to themselves, not hordes of corporate shareholders.

I've seen and experienced enough change to know that what we think or feel about the death of the entertainment business as we know it and the birth of the new mutation of it doesn't matter at all.
It's already happening, it's well under way and all we can do is see if we still have a place in it where we can still make a living doing what we like doing. There will still be a need for creators, writers,
producers, directors, crews but what we will all be working on and for who is a big mystery at this point. The herd will and is definitely being thinned.

I think people who do things like weddings, corporate video, etc. stuff that has nothing to do with the entertainment business stand a better chance of surviving than those who only work in and for Hollywood because the industry is literally melting down and mutating before our eyes. My role in entertainment has been as a crew, production company and freelancer and we are now six months into basically no work in entertainment. All of the work I have been doing in 2020 is for non-profits, corporations, etc. They have money and they want and need live streams and corporate/social media content. I am pretty much writing off the entertainment business until at least well into late 2021, if it ever comes back at a level where my clients there will be calling me. Many of them have gone under this year or gone dormant as companies since Hollywood
production is basically dead.

I think a few theatres might survive but basically, Covid is the death knell for theatres it seems.

//////////////////////////////////////////////

That was in August last year so 9 months on is his assessment accurate?
 
No. Just no.

Leave it only on the mind, next time.

Sorry. I saw the content about ethnicity in casting and worried this had potential to blow up as that diversity-hiring thread did.
And I was in a salty mood at the time.
 
If you think about it, it was inevitable that Hollywood films would become more popular worldwide.

I don't think this is true. I read that before WW1, few people outside the US watched Hollywood movies. But WW1 kept our competitors from producing and distributing movies and laid their countries to waste. Ww2 sealed the deal for Hollywood. (The same is sort of true for US global economic dominance generally, which is largely why it was destined to wane.) https://eh.net/encyclopedia/the-economic-history-of-the-international-film-industry/

But your larger question of what path Hollywood should pursue is interesting and complex. What is the goal?

1. Making the most money for themselves? Wall street is already pushing them to do just that, which is why they're bending over backwards to satisfy the Chinese censors - because China is one of the biggest (THE biggest?) film markets now and getting bigger, and any movie that can play in China can also play in the US.

2. Doing the "right" thing? Not really a consideration for corporations. But I suppose that independent and distinct cinema production flourishing throughout the world and developing their own cultures would be best for the people of earth, healthy for international competition, and lead to the most cinematic innovation.

3. Making ME happy? That's the only goal I really care about. I hope Hollywood forgets about Chinese censors and superhero movies and throws their money into ingenious auteur original stories in English. Like Memento but with a bigger budget. Or if everyone else in the world wants to make movies in English, I'm fine with that, too.

As to your other tangent - I would much rather see race-blind casting (by and large) than some compulsive matching of character with an actor of the same ethnicity. A middle-aged male translator just got fired from translating Amanda Gorman's poem into Catalan because they wanted to hire a young female translator instead. He made the point that by that logic, he can't translate Homer because he's not an ancient Greek or Shakespeare because he's not an Elizabethan englishman
 
I don't think this is true. I read that before WW1, few people outside the US watched Hollywood movies. But WW1 kept our competitors from producing and distributing movies and laid their countries to waste. Ww2 sealed the deal for Hollywood. (The same is sort of true for US global economic dominance generally, which is largely why it was destined to wane.) https://eh.net/encyclopedia/the-economic-history-of-the-international-film-industry/

That is true re WW1 & 2 but as others have noted when Talkies started the US had the whole of the US as a primary or home market (which was large compared to most countries) plus the other English speaking parts of the world (ie most of it) as a secondary market. The US had the money (because of the home market) to create "spectacular" big budget films. Hence Hollywood took off and as it was unaffected by WW1 and 2 by military action, there were still enough people, and the US government wanted wanted the (right sort of) films it almost got a boost.

But your larger question of what path Hollywood should pursue is interesting and complex. What is the goal?
1. Making the most money for themselves? ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
2. Doing the "right" thing?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
3. Making ME happy?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Number 1 always the money, 2 a few, usually the story tellers, want to do the right thing but not the money people, 3 making me happy that is point 1 and 2 at your level. If you make the money you as an individual can do the right thing. the Studios and shareholders are usually amoral and just want a return on capital.

As to your other tangent - I would much rather see race-blind casting (by and large) than some compulsive matching of character with an actor of the same ethnicity. A middle-aged male translator just got fired from translating Amanda Gorman's poem into Catalan because they wanted to hire a young female translator instead. He made the point that by that logic, he can't translate Homer because he's not an ancient Greek or Shakespeare because he's not an Elizabethan englishman

We are going to get thread locked again :-) For translation, voice-over etc ethnicity should not be an issue. Gender and age may be for a voice over but not translation. By and large race blind casting is a good idea unless the story requires a race, gender, age etc. because it is significant in the story. I believe that the first Michael Jackson Bio Pic got cancelled because Michael Jackson wanted a white child to play him as a child...

I think that Hollywood is in a perfect storm over the last decade moving from film to digital, COVID, the change in the way the Rest of the World (for movie production) works, the internet enabling very dispersed/remote working by everyone, Streaming movie services Netfix AND YouTube that bypass the Big Studios and cinema chains, big screen domestic TV's, the ascendency of females in roles other than leading-lady and eye candy, ascendancy of other non-white races (in the USA... In India and Africa the bias is the other way) All this is shaking up Hollywood. Probably about time too... I think it is a shake up not The End. There are too many people in LA for it to die. It will evolve and not be like "the good old days" but then the good old days were never really like that any way. It might be the end of the Big Studios as we know them but not the industry.

The burning question is when will we stop calling 4K streaming digital productions "films"? :-)
 
I don't think this is true. I read that before WW1, few people outside the US watched Hollywood movies. But WW1 kept our competitors from producing and distributing movies and laid their countries to waste. Ww2 sealed the deal for Hollywood...
There was no "Hollywood" to speak of before WWI. Film making was dispersed across the globe, made and, by and large, shown locally. "Birth of a nation" (1915) was the first real "feature film". At that point, Europe was engulfed in WWI and most films had patriotic messages per combatant country.*

Post WWI, two of the biggest markets were the German (Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Switzerland, which also dominated the Germanic part of the world such as Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands) and the English (the USA and the UK, including India and Australia). Hollywood films played well in Europe while the European films got a scant attention in the US.

Big budget Hollywood musicals were loved everywhere, including Germany, and Göbbels spent considerable time and energy trying to lure top German speaking stars such as Marika Rökk. Nonetheless, "Sun Valley Serenade" (August, 1941) was a huge hit in Germany and, after WWII, in the USSR (which availed itself to the reels previously owned by the Third Reich).

*Emmerich Kalman's "Die Csárdásfürstin" was written and first staged in 1915 in Austria, which was part of the Central Powers, but the music was so great, it was staged in its enemies Russia and France anyway. The Russians just changed the name of the operetta from the German "The Duchess of Csardas" into "Silva" and switched the male hero from Count Edwin Ronald von Lippert und Wylersheim into a goofier sounding Slavic surname. It proved to be so popular, the post-WWI Soviets made three different versions, crediting the Germanic sounding Emmerich Kalman as the "Hungarian Imre Kalman". Hungary was in the communist camp, although Kalman's real name was Kopstein.
 
Sorry. I saw the content about ethnicity in casting and worried this had potential to blow up as that diversity-hiring thread did.
And I was in a salty mood at the time.

It's all ok. I only brought it up because it's one example (and a visual one for a visual medium) that displays the differences in demographics for different regions of the world. And to some degree might explain why certain choices in casting might have been made. Although I would likely argue that language is probably a stronger differentiator.

But the entire point was, if the American cinema industry (Hollywood) has transitioned into making films for a worldwide audience, who is left to make specifically American films that represent specifically American culture?

For the record, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that Hollywood has gone this route. It's more just a philosophical/cultural question at large. After all, we've never really seen this in the history of the world to this extent.
At the same time, I don't actually believe culture can work at this large scale without becoming something else entirely. Some kind of super culture or world culture or whatever you want to call it which is separate from the smaller cultures of given regions. And it's certainly not just America that is contributing to this super culture, although Hollywood is typically the name it goes under as a result of being the sort of home base for it.
 
In the 1900s, the European film industry exported throughout the world, at times supplying half the US market. By 1920, however, European films had virtually disappeared from America, and had become marginal in Europe. Theory on sunk costs and market structure suggests that an escalation of sunk costs during a rapid US growth phase resulted in increased concentration; eight surviving companies dominated international film production and distribution forever after. European film companies, although overall profitable, could not take part, and after the war could not catch up. US, British, and French time series data for 1890-1930 support the theory.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3698694?seq=1
 
Eh, actually post-war, the West European film industry had a lot of the successes, more in Italy (di Sica, Fellini, Antonioni, Rosselini, Bertolucci, et al) and in France (Truffaut, Godard, Tati, Melville, Cocteau, Lelouch) than in Germany or the UK, whose top talents mostly ended up in Hollywood.

The Soviets made some great films too (Kalatozov, Tarkovsky), with an occasional Hollywood style comedy or rom-com (Gaidai, Ryazanov, Danelia) but those just didn't play outside of the USSR/CIS.
 
Eh, actually post-war, the West European film industry had a lot of the successes, more in Italy (di Sica, Fellini, Antonioni, Rosselini, Bertolucci, et al) and in France (Truffaut, Godard, Tati, Melville, Cocteau, Lelouch) than in Germany or the UK, whose top talents mostly ended up in Hollywood.

The Soviets made some great films too (Kalatozov, Tarkovsky), with an occasional Hollywood style comedy or rom-com (Gaidai, Ryazanov, Danelia) but those just didn't play outside of the USSR/CIS.

The problem is the Italian/French/German markets were a hell of a lot smaller than the US market. So it would be easier to finance a film in the USA and get a return on that than any single country in Europe. The UK had the advantage of being native American speakers :-)
 
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