What format to shoot?

Riceman

Riceman

Member
I'm a newbie and just got my new HVX. I have always shot some form of DV so am new to all the possibilities the HVX offers...and very excited!

I have a project coming up and will have to shoot the interview soon... probably before I decide on final output, so my question is which format to shoot in, 1080 or 720 and what frame rate to insure that I will have something usable? This will definitely be headed for DVD, with a very high possibility of broadcast in the US, at least locally here in Hawaii. I was considering 720 30p so I could take advantage of "under/over cranking". Will this transfer well to 720 29.93 interlaced NTSC? Also, if a network needs the show in 1080 is the transfer good from 720 to 1080 and..., what equipment will I need for that to do it well?

Camera & Equip:
• Panasonic AG HVX-200
• 2 16GB cards
• Cavision 4x5.65 HardShade w/rails
• Cavision adjustable side flaps/french flag
• Cavision hand grips
• Tiffen 4x4 UV Haze-1
• Tiffen 4x4 .25 Ultra Contrast
• Tiffen 4x4 Circular Polarizing White Water
• Tiffen 4x4 ND .6
• Tiffen 4x4 ND .3
• Tiffen 4x4 ND .6 graduated soft
• Tiffen 4x4 ND .3 graduated soft
• Tiffen White Water Clear Protector
• Century .6x Wide Angle Adapter
• Ikan V-8000
• Manfretto 516 head
• Bogen 525MVB tripod
• 2 Lowell Omni 500 watt
• Lowell Tota 750 watt
• Lowell Rifa 500 watt
• Lowell Pro 125 watt


System Specs:
• MacBookPro 2.4Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
• 4 GB RAM
• 23 Cinema Display
• Caldigit S2VR Duo 1TB
• Matrox MXO
• FCP Studio 2
• Raylight for Mac
• External Pioneer Blu-Ray (for archiving)
 
most people i know shoot 720/24pn. the "pn" modes allow you to over/undercrank. they do not record any extra pulldown frames either so they buy you extra record time on p2. 720/30pn is a good way to go if you want to shoot 30fps. both "pn" modes will translate fine to a sd 480/60i dvd. the 30p will go straight on while the 24p will have pulldown inserted. both look great. the 24p looks more like film. 720p footage is shot all the time for network stuff and uprezzed to 1080. the varicam doesn't even do 1080 and it is used for tons of broadcast content. for that matter, so is the hvx as of late.

in my opinion shooting 1080 on the hvx is kind of a waste. it's already a pixel shifted image at 720 so going to 1080 only adds more artificial uprezzing. plus is takes away the multiple framerates and uses tons more p2/hard drive space. the image to me isn't any better.

and you'll probably want more lights if unless you are only shooting closeups. the hvx is a light hog big time. i jumped from a dvx to the hvx and had to double my kit to shoot the same stuff.
 
cheezweezl said:
in my opinion shooting 1080 on the hvx is kind of a waste. it's already a pixel shifted image at 720 so going to 1080 only adds more artificial uprezzing. plus is takes away the multiple framerates and uses tons more p2/hard drive space. the image to me isn't any better.
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Will there never be an end to this misinformation?? The 3 CCDs are arranged with one of them offset, so the image is split into an array that is esentially 1920 x 1080, and that image is scanned and processed at 1920 x 1080, then converted and compressed to whichever recording format is chosen. 720 is a DOWNCONVERSION from the original 1080 image that the camera captures; 1080 is NOT an upconversion from 720 (or any other dimension).
 
Is there some article that explains this issue conclusively? I find it quite confusing with so many different opinions out there. I cannot see how an SD 960 X 540 sensor can yield an HD image.
 
fed said:
Is there some article that explains this issue conclusively? I find it quite confusing with so many different opinions out there. I cannot see how an SD 960 X 540 sensor can yield an HD image.
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Every day someone discusses about this. Is really easy to understand.
Is the way the three 960 x 540 (that aren't SD) sensors are offsetted what allows taking a 1080 rez image. If you look around you will find lots of explanations telling the same that KMR or I said and I think that thats enough to understand it.
 
fed said:
Is there some article that explains this issue conclusively? I find it quite confusing with so many different opinions out there. I cannot see how an SD 960 X 540 sensor can yield an HD image.
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It's been repeated ad nauseum, all over the place on this site. Do some searching, you'll find it easily.

Also, it's not "an SD 960 X 540 sensor", it's an assembly of THREE 960 x 540 chips, with one of them offset, to provide the 1920 x 1080 image.
 
Thanks for the input...I think? Just joking, I do appreciate these forums and the many ideas and experiences shared here. But...

Sounds like there is a bit of confusion out there, from what I've read there are 3 960 x 540 chips, offset to provide a 1920 x 1080 image.

In any case, I am still wondering how to future proof footage. I think I will be doing most of my projects in 720/30pn to take advantage of variable frame rates, but am thinking of shooting all b-roll in 1080/30p, so I can use this footage in possible future projects with working timelines of 1080/30p. Does anyone know how the 1080/30p footage with work in a 720/30p timeline? I edit in FCP.

And, yes..one more question. Has anyone tried putting 1080/30p in a 1080/24p timline? Does this give you a small amount of slow-motion?

Thanks for all the help...I am psyched to get out and shoot!:
 
All that talk of chips and resolution and no mention of the lighting kit... tsk tsk. Not to be a dick but in my opinion you're going to have a difficult time lighting sweet interviews with that kit you list. Seems like your mattebox and filter budget was bigger than you're lighting budget.
 
Riceman said:
Sounds like there is a bit of confusion out there, from what I've read there are 3 960 x 540 chips, offset to provide a 1920 x 1080 image.
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Correct. There's a tech paper on the Panasonic site that describes the process.

And, yes..one more question. Has anyone tried putting 1080/30p in a 1080/24p timline? Does this give you a small amount of slow-motion?
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Yes, you can put 30p footage into a 24p project to get frame-accurate slow motion. I'm not sure how you'd do it in FCP, I think you're supposed to conform the footage to a new frame rate in Cinema Tools, but if you did so you'd get great (mild) slow-mo.
 
hennbot said:
All that talk of chips and resolution and no mention of the lighting kit... tsk tsk. Not to be a dick but in my opinion you're going to have a difficult time lighting sweet interviews with that kit you list. Seems like your mattebox and filter budget was bigger than you're lighting budget.
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You are right about the lighting, even if you were condescending, that is being remedied...the lighting that is.

Barry...thanks for your input, I'll look into the workflow for using 30p in a 24p timeline.
 
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addI just tried 1080 30p in a 24p time line...used a six sec clip. It rendered out to a six sec clip in 24. Seemed to be normal motion. Is there a trick to get the slight slo mo? (Premiere cs3 Winows)
 
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You have to conform the clip to 24fps. Basically what is happening when you drop a 30fps clip into your 24fps timeline is that Premiere is altering the image and the frames to try and squeeze the info from your 30fps clip down to 24fps. It keeps the length of the clip the same (obviously). So it's taking the info from 180 frames (6 secs of 30fps) and putting it into 144 (6 secs of 24fps). When you conform the clip to 24fps, it literally takes the exact same frames you have and just plays them back at a different speed. So instead of seeing those 180 frames in 6 seconds, it plays those 180 frames over 7.5 seconds, and thus looks slower.

I run a Mac, and conform clips using Cinema Tools. I'm not sure how you'd do it on a PC, but I'm sure it's possible.
 
Riceman said:
In any case, I am still wondering how to future proof footage. I think I will be doing most of my projects in 720/30pn to take advantage of variable frame rates, but am thinking of shooting all b-roll in 1080/30p,
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Personally i think it'd make more sense to shoot B roll in 720pn and everything else in 1080 is you want the best quality. Unless your planning on shooting tons of over cranking why bother only shooting 720 on your Main camera.. unless you've only got a few small cards of course..
 
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