What format to film with for documentary?

F

Fender126

Member
Got a question for you guys.

It looks like I might be doing my first documentary project. I just bought a DVX100a used and plan to film this summer. Now heres the question..what format to I shoot in? Most TVs are widescreen digital high definition now right?

The documentary is about summer camps. I plan to put it on DVD and show it in the following ways:
- Small and possably big film festivals (toronto)
- Churches and schools (they might have old 4:3 tvs)
- Sold as DVD to whomoever
- A small theatre that plays local talent in Ottawa called the "mayfair" its a full sized theatre screen.

So, based on that.

1) What format should I shoot it? 4:3 and tweak it later? Or Squeeze mode? 4:3 letterbox?

Its my first documentary so im not too concerned about letterboxing per se. What I am concerned about is the image being either stretched or the frame cut when watching it on different formats...So..in light of these new times..how shoudl I go about this?

2) Also, I read somthing about when you put it on DVD, tvs will automatically reformat it to the tv being used? is that right?

3) And finally, if I shoot it in Squeeze mode, as you all know, the view screen on the camera doesnt show the squeeze widescreen image properly, as you problably know (ppl are tall and skinny, cirlces are oval). Do you have any tips as to how to frame shots with this screen as it is so they will look nice. (like do I add, say, 5mm distance to frame the shot at the right and left? top and bottom? whats the best way to frame shots with that? Or for example..if I shoot a person, and put the top of their head right at the tip top of the screen, will it then fit with proper headroom when i capture the footage? should I frame lesser headroom? more? And same question for the sides. Is there a way I can mark my camera? The last owner of the camera wrote lines on the screen which i think shows where the wide screen would be. But when I put the letterbox on, it matches totally with the lines he drew..was he just marking letterbox, or could he have been marking where to frame shots for wide screen?

Ill have to know this so I film it all properly as Ill be going by gut the whole time. I wont be able to bring any kind of monitor with me.

thank you so much for the help guys. Eager to hear from you

From Kevin
 
Heres another way to pose the question. Would it be a total disaster to just shoot in 4:3?

Of course I would like wide screen, but I can do without it. Although..it would be amazing for the big lush enviroments Ill be filming.

What are all the potential dangers and things to consider in shooting 4:3?

Lets get a vote..

squeeze mode and try and frame the shots with the wonky viewscreen?

Or 4:3?

thanks again all!
 
Figure out what's artistically appropriate for your project and shoot it that way. That really should be your #1 concern.
 
Personally, I'm a fan of shooting 24pA in squeeze mode, but widescreen really depends on you and your purpose. Assuming that your exposure and camera handling are good, the 24pA image is stunning in 16:9 or 4:3.

There are some folks who like to shoot 4:3 and then crop to 16:9 in post. The advantage there is that you have control over the frame, and can adjust up or down as needed to correct for headroom. The lines on your viewfinder were most likely for framing 16:9 while shooting 4:3.

The challenge with shooting squeeze is that you don't see the whole frame. You can get used to viewing the squeezed image as you shoot, but know that there is some image outside of the viewfinder.

I'd say your best goal right now is to get out and shoot. Shoot, play with settings, see what you get, and learn the ins and outs. Don't let this summer be your trial by fire on the DVX. It's a wonderful camera that can, in the right hands, yield beautiful pictures. Learn now how much overscan you have in squeeze, and that will help you decide whether to shoot squeeze or to shoot 4:3 and crop in post. (And cropping in post will yield 16:9, and not letterbox, if you want it to.)
 
Indeed. Ideally widescreen. Not just for standard tvs, but for the content (large landscapes, large groups of people). But the problem is Ill have to use squeeze mode, and the image in the viwerfinder is stretched and incomplete. So I would need to learn how to frame properly for it. It sounds like its going to be a nightmare. And I wont be able to carry around a monitor or buy an anamorphic lense. So its either 4:3 or figure this out. :) But your right, the needs of the project come first, otherwise whats the point right?
 
C2v: That was exellent advice. thank you very much.
when you capture the footage to final cut pro, it displays it in proper widescreen right?

But yeah, your right. Practice is the best. It would be a shame to watch this thing and say nothing but "if only I knew".

thanks again man
 
C2V: On the 24pA point, that is somthing to consider. My camera handling is in fact good. But Im worried about exposure as I may be filming in outdoor nature enviroments where I cannot controlt he lighting. and in fact some things might happen at night time (like campfires) where I will need as much light as possable.

I was debating on the 24p option. But my main concern was the loss of lighting. Also, as beautiful as it is, I was under the impression that it is more of a 'film' look, and if I can use the interlace that might be better for documentary anyway.

I am also interested in vibrant color for the project, and it does seem like 1080i has better resolution for that.

so...the thought process continues....24p...1080i...squeeze mode....4:3....

what is the A in 24pA again? Ill go and check that setting out.

thanks man
 
Fender126 said:
when you capture the footage to final cut pro, it displays it in proper widescreen right?
Click to expand...

Well, if your capture and sequence settings include "anamorphic," then yes. But if you shoot in 4:3 for a crop in post, you'll capture as standard DV NTSC.

Fender126 said:
C2V: On the 24pA point, that is somthing to consider. My camera handling is in fact good. But Im worried about exposure as I may be filming in outdoor nature enviroments where I cannot controlt he lighting. and in fact some things might happen at night time (like campfires) where I will need as much light as possable.
Click to expand...

The DVX needs light. Campfires may be problematic even without 24p. Best to bring some portable ighting. You can rig a white canvas/sheet to use as a soft bounce, and fire a light at it just to give a littel extra something. In 24p, you can set your slow shutter to 1/24 to get a little more exposure.

A mattebox and an assortment of filters will help during the day. Pack some ND, some grad ND, and a polarizer.

Fender126 said:
I was debating on the 24p option. But my main concern was the loss of lighting. Also, as beautiful as it is, I was under the impression that it is more of a 'film' look, and if I can use the interlace that might be better for documentary anyway.
Click to expand...

Interlaced can be great for documentary. It just depends, as David said, on your artistic intentions. I've seen docs in both 24p and 60i. I tend to prefer the "film look" for most of my stuff these days, though I occasionally shoot 60i (on the DVX, that's Progressive "OFF") when absolutely needed.

Since you're going for DVD release, theatrical screening, etc., you may want to think about 30p. You get the motion signature of 60i with the ease of progressive frames. (interlaced frames look awful on progressive displays like the Internet.)

Just know that, if you shoot in 60i (Progressive "OFF") mode, squeeze is completely out of the question. If you want widescreen without 24p, either shoot 60i or 30p in 4:3 and crop later, or shoot 30p in squeeze.

Fender126 said:
I am also interested in vibrant color for the project, and it does seem like 1080i has better resolution for that.

so...the thought process continues....24p...1080i...squeeze mode....4:3....

what is the A in 24pA again? Ill go and check that setting out.
Click to expand...

1080i is an HD spec. The DVX is an SD camera. You will not be able to shoot 1080i on the DVX.

The "A" in 24pA is "Advanced." 24p and 24pA are both 24 frames progressive, but both are recorded to tape at 29.97 (60i) by adding a pull down. 24p uses a 3:2 pull down, while 24pA uses 2:3:3:2. Both can be edited at 29.97 (though you'll have interlaced frames), both can have the pull down removed to be edited at 23.976. 24pA is generally a cleaner pull down removal if you are using Final Cut to edit.
 
Ok, this is starting to come together. I will now re read my books on 30p and see what the best choice is.

I think no matter who I show it to, it will be by handing them a DVD. so is there a best all around option (to originally film in) that is best for all these viewing formats (widescreen tv, people with older 4:3 tvs, theatre screen, film festival screen).

Sounds like thats too good to be true..a format that is best for all those scenerios. But I will definately be putting it on DVD, so with all that in mind, what would you all say is the best format to suit the technical issues of all those multiformats?

right now it seems like it would be a toss up between:
standard 4:3 interlace, or 24p or 30p wide with squeeze mode.

With standard 4:3 interlace:
- easier shooting with lighting and framing of shots
- will fit widescreen, but be a small square image
- tvs may try to stretch the image
- apparently looks terrible on internet?
- widescreen squeeze mode is out of the question'
- Slightly better resolution
- Easier for a first timer like me (will any of these people give a damn?)


24p
- film look
- More difficult lighting issues
- with squeeze mode, will have to factor in framing issues (learnable i hope)
- old interlace tvs have problems with 24p does it not?

30p
- (I have to check again, but I heard that there is a disadvantage to this too depending on what your doing. Ill check again)

anyway..to be continued..any thoughts at all from anyone are welcome
 
It's no more difficult to frame shots shooting squeeze. You still see the same amount of your picture as you would with 4:3.

No TVs have a problem with 24p. You've watched hundreds of movies on TV, right? They're all 24 fps, which is functionally the same as 24p. It's just a matter of delivering it properly, which is easy.

As I said before, your first and foremost concern is what you think is artistically appropriate for your project. Do NOT let technical issues keep you from doing something which serves your purposes better. Just learn to deal with the issues -- none of it as daunting as it first appears. :)
 
David:
Yeah. I think Im freaking out and trying to cater to all these technical requirements that I am not putting the style first and going from there.

Ok, reframe the question, from an artistic standpoint. I know I will have to figure this out on my own, but a few starter tips to get the ball rolling would be very helpfull. Here it goes:

- The film is about summer camps. There will be many many outdoor shots, some of which take place in places with vast landscapes (mountain hikes, ext). The rest will be typical summer camp fare (forests, buildings made mostly with wood, fires).

- Artistically, vibrant color is important to me. I want the audiences senses to light up when they see the film. As camp is a place where all the senses are very highly stimulated, I want the video to reflect that. I want the color of the locations (green grass, blue sky, white clouds, the wood of the buildings) to stand out very strong.

- Movie look or interlace look, either one would work. Perhaps interlace would make it more realistic looking. And perhaps 24p will give it more of a dreamlike quality. Which way to go is still undecided.

- There will be night shots. I would like to avoid the 'blairwitch' look, where you only see the people and nothing behind them. I would like to have a descent amount of background behind people interviewed for night shots. Filming around campfires will problably be common as alot happens durring those and it serves as extra (and cool?) lighting. I will have reflective material and problably one basic light (I may even use flashlights for extra lighting).

- I will want to do alot of rack focuses, or have the background blurred. So I would want as shallow a depth of field as possable for those shots. So I would like a setting that gives me as much play with that as possable.

- Creative wise, those are the only technical requirements I can think of right now. the rest is up to me in terms of filming style.

Any ideas based on that?

thanks man
 
David:
You said its no more difficult shooting in squeeze, and that I see the same amount of footage I would in 4:3 (in the viewscreen?). I could have sworn it stretches it in the viewscreen so not only are things stretched up, but you are not seeing the whole frame. Is that not true for dvx100a?
 
You still see a viewfinder full of image shooting in squeeze. Yes, it is horizontally compressed (vertically stretched, if you will), but you'll still have what you need to frame your shot. Even if you shoot regular 60i in 4:3, you still miss just a little around the edges. The viewfinder does not have underscan, either in 4:3 or squeeze.

As for all your other questions, except for one, I suggest you go out and shoot (as I said before) now to see what you are able to do with the camera. You're pushing it into rough terrain with night shooting and expecting so much background. Shallow DOF with the DVX really requires light, and moving the camera back and zooming in.

But low-light and the DVX are not terribly friendly. Again... shoot and see. Go set up a campfire with some friends. See what you can get. Play with it, be creative, and start shaping your camera look from there.

The one exception is your desire for strong color. Learn to shape your in-camera image to be fairly flat. Go for proper exposure and proper white balance. You can always add a little saturation in post to get the colors to pop. Creative use of camera filters can help as well. There are tons of tools available to help you get what you want.

There's a great thread on IN CAMERA SCENE SETTINGS, but the drawback there is that you're stuck with it once you shoot it. Leaving some latitude in post for shaping your images can be a bit safer.

The bottom line... really, what's most important here... is that you know your camera inside and out - what it can (and cannot) do, what the different frame rates and scene files look like, what each menu setting does to shape the image - and that you know how to use the tools it provides to get the images that YOU want.

Shaping your image with the DVX is actually very straightforward. It just takes a little practice, a little reading (the manual, Barry's DVX Book), and a little experimenting.
 
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I think that you should stick with 30p for a documentary. One of my friends who teaches film, said that 30p is the choice for documentary because its easier and faster to get a good shot "out of the box". 24pA looks awesome, but there is a lot of exposure and lighting work to be done before the shoot, so if you are in a tight quick situation, then 30p is the best, but dont try and interchange 30p and 24pA in post. Shoot the entire think in one mode.
 
Wezbert said:
I think that you should stick with 30p for a documentary. One of my friends who teaches film, said that 30p is the choice for documentary because its easier and faster to get a good shot "out of the box". 24pA looks awesome, but there is a lot of exposure and lighting work to be done before the shoot, so if you are in a tight quick situation, then 30p is the best, but dont try and interchange 30p and 24pA in post. Shoot the entire think in one mode.
Click to expand...


Brutal honesty:

Picking a frame rate because it's "easier out of the box" is the stuff of amateurs.

Pick what's appropriate, not what's easiest. If they happen to be same, then great. But don't limit your creativity simply because you don't want to take the time to get what you actually want, or to learn how to do it properly.

Besides, there's very little difference between 24p and 30p in terms of adequate prep time. The exposure level difference is almost negligible at comparable shutter speeds.
 
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