FS7: What about FS7 HDR Upgrade ??? - Only FS5 ?? - WHY?
- Thread starter sly
- Start date
starcentral
Veteran
All this NAB 2017 is disappointing .
I was wondering where the update is for my FS7.:embarasse
Why ist it possible to add a kind of HDR workflow to the smaller FS5 and leave the FS7 behind ??rogar-Sick(DBG):
Any rumors ?
Sly
From what I understand it's coming to FS7/F5/F55 but just later.
wschmid
Well-known member
The FS5 Upgrade is not so much about shooting - but more about the capability to record in rec2020 and playback the footage in HDR directly from the camera.
The fact that the FS7 I can shoot in log what can be used for creating HDR footage does not mean that the FS7 I is capable to playback the footage as HDR on a HDR-UHD-TV.
That is my understanding at the moment - but maybe I am wrong.
The fact that the FS7 I can shoot in log what can be used for creating HDR footage does not mean that the FS7 I is capable to playback the footage as HDR on a HDR-UHD-TV.
That is my understanding at the moment - but maybe I am wrong.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
I loved that there was practically nothing new of interest to me at NAB this year. I don't understand why anyone would be dissapointed that they can now get more ROI out of the stuff they already bought. There is nothing, nothing, that anyone could have introduced at NAB this year that would significantly make a difference to my bottom line over over the coming months and years. Yes, there is a lot of stuff that is very tempting to buy, but first and foremost this is a business to me . . . it is not about buying more toys if they won't put more money in my bank account. Let's all enjoy some ROI on the cameras, lenses, lights, etc. we already bought and learn to use them more proficiently.
Hi, Noah!
I am just really trying to digest the full depth and breadth of HDR. Had several good engineering discussions at NAB and I'll be working on a series of articles after my research gets me to a point where I can offer an HDR primer followed by what we can and cannot practically achieve.
HDR is more than simply the color gamut. There is the element of brightness (minimum 1000 nits) as well as a gamma curve. The 3 primary competing systems are Dolby Vision, HDR10 and HLG. HDR10 is open source-- hence no royalties to Dolby who controls DolbyVision tightly and it is encoded on a chip in the HDR device. The newer popularly-priced HDR sets are HDR10 as is, for example, the new Dell HDR computer monitor. Sony's HLG is BT.2100, which is the gamut of BT.2020 but with the necessary brightness to adhere to the min 1000 nit standard.
The FS7 II has BT.2020 in Custom Mode for HDR workflows. Here is where I question whether it is possible to create an HDR10 LUT in LUTCalc (I know that is possible) and apply that to the BT.2020 footage. It is of course dependent upon being able to view it.
This is some of the promise of the Atomos Sumo announced at NAB as it will be a 19" HDR monitor (quasi-reference monitor-- a $2500 recorder/monitor doesn't compare to a $25,000 dedicated reference monitor).
Now-- how do we get that signal?
AJA announced support with a forthcoming update for Kona 4 to select a standard in the AJA Control Panel software.
As far as Blackmagic goes, the only capture/display hardware that will pass through an HDR signal is the Ultra Studio Extreme series.
AJA also announced a technology preview of their FS HDR converter which will convert SDR to HDR or HDR between certain standards.
That's a start
Ned Soltz
I am just really trying to digest the full depth and breadth of HDR. Had several good engineering discussions at NAB and I'll be working on a series of articles after my research gets me to a point where I can offer an HDR primer followed by what we can and cannot practically achieve.
HDR is more than simply the color gamut. There is the element of brightness (minimum 1000 nits) as well as a gamma curve. The 3 primary competing systems are Dolby Vision, HDR10 and HLG. HDR10 is open source-- hence no royalties to Dolby who controls DolbyVision tightly and it is encoded on a chip in the HDR device. The newer popularly-priced HDR sets are HDR10 as is, for example, the new Dell HDR computer monitor. Sony's HLG is BT.2100, which is the gamut of BT.2020 but with the necessary brightness to adhere to the min 1000 nit standard.
The FS7 II has BT.2020 in Custom Mode for HDR workflows. Here is where I question whether it is possible to create an HDR10 LUT in LUTCalc (I know that is possible) and apply that to the BT.2020 footage. It is of course dependent upon being able to view it.
This is some of the promise of the Atomos Sumo announced at NAB as it will be a 19" HDR monitor (quasi-reference monitor-- a $2500 recorder/monitor doesn't compare to a $25,000 dedicated reference monitor).
Now-- how do we get that signal?
AJA announced support with a forthcoming update for Kona 4 to select a standard in the AJA Control Panel software.
As far as Blackmagic goes, the only capture/display hardware that will pass through an HDR signal is the Ultra Studio Extreme series.
AJA also announced a technology preview of their FS HDR converter which will convert SDR to HDR or HDR between certain standards.
That's a start
Ned Soltz
nyvz
Veteran
Maybe I'm misunderstanding but aren't all these standards simply defined by their gamma curve and gamut? The signal data is still always packaged and transported the same way, no? I don't see why a 3D LUT isn't all it takes to convert from any standard to another assuming the content exposure etc is compatible, which S-log3/SG3 should be. In fact it seems like HLG gamma isn't that different from S-Log2...
I think the main issue is that transforming content to different HDR standards may require more than a single LUT unless the material was shot with that output gamma and display standard in mind as exposure might need tweaking to look ideal in each separate standard.
I think the main issue is that transforming content to different HDR standards may require more than a single LUT unless the material was shot with that output gamma and display standard in mind as exposure might need tweaking to look ideal in each separate standard.
KeithM Z Syst
Member
HLG is just a Gamma curve. I expect to see it on the next FW update for the FS7. If you REALLY want it, you can bring your footage through Catalyst Browse and convert Slog3 to HLG in there.
+1 While this seems to go against many of the posts in general on this board, I fully and wholeheartedly agree.
Keith - are you sure of that? I haven't used CB in awhile - but I thought there was only Rec 709 space - the only other conversion when shooting Slog 2/3 is one of two hyper gammas. I don't believe that qualifies for HDR ...or did I miss an update or something?
KeithM Z Syst
Member
Absolutely certain, they just did an update on CB a few weeks ago, it supports HLG now as a selectable gamma to bake in.
Yes. The latest Catalyst Browse can bake in the HLG curve. And that is the gamma component of Sony's flavor of HDR. The other component of Sony's HLG isn't just the gamma curve but also the BT.2100 gamut.
By the way, if working in SLog3 in the FS7/F5/F55, use the SGamut3 gamut and NOT SGamut3.cine. This colorspace is actually wider than BT.2020 and in post you can bring down that color space.
Of course, everything is dependent upon a monitor in which you can actually view BT.2020
At NAB, HP showed the DreamColor z31x, a $4000 monitor capable of achieving about 80% BT.2020. Gorgeous monitor and I'm saving the pennies...
Ned
By the way, if working in SLog3 in the FS7/F5/F55, use the SGamut3 gamut and NOT SGamut3.cine. This colorspace is actually wider than BT.2020 and in post you can bring down that color space.
Of course, everything is dependent upon a monitor in which you can actually view BT.2020
At NAB, HP showed the DreamColor z31x, a $4000 monitor capable of achieving about 80% BT.2020. Gorgeous monitor and I'm saving the pennies...
Ned
All this NAB 2017 is disappointing .
I was wondering where the update is for my FS7.:embarasse
Why ist it possible to add a kind of HDR workflow to the smaller FS5 and leave the FS7 behind ??
Any rumors ?
Sly
Sly, Just wanted to address your initial post just to make one point perfectly clear. The FS7 is and always will be capable of shooting HDR material. Weather the FS5 had a LUT added that applies a curve and colour space is just a handy tool? I'd always originate from the base log signal myself on any camera I use and then process the footage in an HDR workflow if it needed to go that way.
If you have no current way to view your HDR footage in your timeline then all of this is not going to help you anyway.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
OK I got asked about HDR.
Call me dumb but is this not just a gamma curve,
Could one not just do everything as normal and then output the file in a different 'delivery space' in the same way one can output as VIDEO or DATA levels, just output at HDR_LEVELS
Call me dumb but is this not just a gamma curve,
Could one not just do everything as normal and then output the file in a different 'delivery space' in the same way one can output as VIDEO or DATA levels, just output at HDR_LEVELS
moldcad
Veteran
Sam - I record with S-log3/S-gamut3, and this is all I need for grading HDR in Rsolve. Don't even use LUTs, but RCM (or ACEScc); they let me define the input color space / gamma (same as was used on camera), and Rec.2020 / ST.2084 for output. Provided I managed to catch dynamic range wide enough, it's all that's really needed!
Piotr
Piotr
Peter James
Member
Noel's post 14 above has answered most of your questions, record log (or Raw) and grade for HDR with different HDR gamma and Gamut to those used for current HD output. Just to complicate things there are several different flavours of UHD HDR for delivery.
moldcad
Veteran
Really, there are only 3 "flavors":
- Dolby Vision (requires extremely expensive reference monitor plus Dolby license)
- HLG (gaining popularity, but somehow I don't like the results as much as I like...
...HDR10, which is designed for consumer Premium UHD TV (like my Samsung KS series, and in fact most high-end UHD TV sets today).
Piotr
- Dolby Vision (requires extremely expensive reference monitor plus Dolby license)
- HLG (gaining popularity, but somehow I don't like the results as much as I like...
...HDR10, which is designed for consumer Premium UHD TV (like my Samsung KS series, and in fact most high-end UHD TV sets today).
Piotr
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
So basically any camera is 'HDR ready'.. just ones that record a WDR over a deep bit depth will look nicer when thrown into an HDR workflow as it is more exacting in terms of tonality?
I dont understand a difference between HDR and a bright monitor, a bright monitor will shine many nits when presented with a value called 'white'.
I dont understand a difference between HDR and a bright monitor, a bright monitor will shine many nits when presented with a value called 'white'.
moldcad
Veteran
Yes - provided it can record a wide enough DR (today only possible with a log gamma). Which doesn't change the fact that with the FS7, I can also make my HG7 recording look HDR-ish
A "bright monitor" may be able to only show Rec.709 - you need one able to cover (most of) DCI P65 or Rec.2020, and then even "brighter", too!
Piotr