Well here's the new Canon
- Thread starter Jason Davenport
- Start date
Viddovation
Veteran
What you're quoting is a dynamic range rating, from a single test, without S-Log. And current users are reporting 13.5 stops with S-Log on the PMW-F3 - and that's without the forthcomiming new firmware that will give exposure index access.
However... what I'm talking about is light sensitivity - which is a different thing entirely - and right now the PMW-F3 is pretty much king (at least for price range) when it comes to light sensitivity. IE... how well does it see in the dark?
My point being, if the scarlet is less light sensitive, then you need to throw more light at the scene from the start. When you start talking about overcranking, you need more light (for either camera) - because your shutter speed has to go up from 1/48 to at least 1/60 if not 1/120.
For the same shutter speed, expect the PMW-F3 to need less light to get the same exposure (with comparable or less noise)
Now, when you say "adjust for the overcranking sensor crop DOF by shooting wider open on the lens", you're essentially removing the possibility for me to shoot at wider open apertures for my regular speed footage (24p).
So, I can't have a really shallow depth of field look on the Scarlet when overcranking is involved, without certain compromises. That's what I'm talking about.
The primary compromise on the F3 is the 1080p limitation with external recorder, or 720p internal. But I do get to keep my light sensitivity, and wide open apertures, and shallow depth of field of S35.
It's all tradeoffs - I just personally don't like the tradeoff Scarlet is making - in a client situation, I would tend to think I'm better of renting a RED EPIC if 2k or better overcranking is desired.
Video has some good points, very vaild.
And it is all Tradeoffs: Do you pay 16~18K for an F3 w/S-Log and oFfboard Recording to make it the tool that everyone's on about? Because, without that stuff it's kinda not the same beast.
Or do you pay 15K for a 4K beast with an upgrade path, that doesn't need offboard to compete?
Sadly, even at 15K for the C300... I don't think it's a competitor. =[ And it's sad because that image is extremely stout.
And it is all Tradeoffs: Do you pay 16~18K for an F3 w/S-Log and oFfboard Recording to make it the tool that everyone's on about? Because, without that stuff it's kinda not the same beast.
Or do you pay 15K for a 4K beast with an upgrade path, that doesn't need offboard to compete?
Sadly, even at 15K for the C300... I don't think it's a competitor. =[ And it's sad because that image is extremely stout.
arniepix
Well-known member
It does have genlock. And timecode in. But, alas, no 4:4:4, and only single link SDI to record on an external recorder.
Viddovation
Veteran
Quite right...
I think anyone who's already invested in a PMW-F3 workflow isn't in any danger. But if I didn't already own my PMW-F3, I would be thinking twice about the investment, particularly since it's reasonable to assume that Sony will retaliate, likely within a year, perhaps with an announcement as early as NAB.
The C300... seems to me to be a nonstarter. Unless they suddenly knock the price in half to something like $8,000 in which case it would be pretty hard to root against.
The Scarlet... my main fear is that one of reliability. My overcranking complaints aside - well, thing is, if you own a scarlet, then you can rent a RED EPIC brain when the client needs one, and use your own accessories, keeping the rental cost down. That itself is genius.
But, I don't want to be on the bleeding edge as RED works out the kinks.
The only potential loser here is Canon... their announcement of a concept video dedicated 4k DSLR is actually more exciting than the C300.
I was at the launch last night in Hollywood, saw the films in the Paramount theatre which looked great on that size screen only being recorded internally 4:2:2 50 mb. Colour rendition was awesome. Very natural and DR on the charts in the display showed around 13 stops in the canon log
There are some issues but it's an interesting step into the game
There are some issues but it's an interesting step into the game
Lenilenapi
Carbonite Member
Any idea about whether the internal card recording 8 bit 422 is good enough for recording with the Canon log gamma? For the F3 the consensus was you needed 10 bit. I'm, assuming that even though the Canon codec sounds stronger that 10 bit is the important number to avoid problems with Log. Also as I recall numbers are not everything in a codec. The XDCAM codec is extremely efficient and much better than its specs indicate . Will this also be true for the Canon? Time will tell.
Just had a conversation with a friend who was excited about being able to use his Canon glass. But without AF or IS what's the gain? At least the Nikon zooms are parfocal on the F3 but a non parfocal Canon lens is not very appealing to me.
I'd like to know if the viewfinder on the Canon or Scarlet is better than the POS choices that Sony gave us on the F3. Interesting cameras but no game changer yet. I'd like to see Sony lower the cost of SLog in response, but that's probably just dreaming.
Just had a conversation with a friend who was excited about being able to use his Canon glass. But without AF or IS what's the gain? At least the Nikon zooms are parfocal on the F3 but a non parfocal Canon lens is not very appealing to me.
I'd like to know if the viewfinder on the Canon or Scarlet is better than the POS choices that Sony gave us on the F3. Interesting cameras but no game changer yet. I'd like to see Sony lower the cost of SLog in response, but that's probably just dreaming.
DirectorDOP
Member
The body/configuration conjures up images of the old Super8mm camera days. Hey, Canon had to do something. Much of the industry has been waiting to see if the 5D MkII was going to evolve in to the cine market. Sony and Red have been in the game for a while, taking a huge chunk of the lower end, shallow DOF/large sensor market. Canon hasn't had much in the way of a video camera for a while... let alone a cinema model.
Yep, you just record to the internal card. Nothing special needed. According to Canon: "Canon Log does not change the recording format, so footage recorded in Canon Log behaves the same in a post-production environment as footage shot in any other gamma mode with the EOS C300. Canon Log does not create a "Raw" video file on the memory card."
RED's Bomb EVF is the best with a resolution of 1280 x 784 but it cost $3200. Canon's EVF is the same as the one on the XF305 so you can go to a camera store and check it out. The spec is 1,555,000 dots, but this usually means all the subpixels so the actual resolution is probably 960 x 540. The Sony F3 EVF is 852 x 480.
Lenilenapi
Carbonite Member
No flip out which is partly a negative , but then it probably has a better EVF than the F3. Whatever it looks like you will need to accessorize this just like an F3 with an EVF and a perhaps an external recorder.
3 glass ND filters which is better than the F3's , but still its an odd form factor that doesn't look comfortable to operate but can't tell till you try. Who said the f3 is comfortable?
If their version of log can accommodate 8bit recording, can it have as much DR as Slog on the F3 ?
3 glass ND filters which is better than the F3's , but still its an odd form factor that doesn't look comfortable to operate but can't tell till you try. Who said the f3 is comfortable?
If their version of log can accommodate 8bit recording, can it have as much DR as Slog on the F3 ?
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canon log would be better recorded with an external recorder than the onboard one since 10bit would definitely make it easier to push in post
IMO this is actually a very good camera. the specs are realistic and makes sense. the price however is out of my reach. its definitely not in my market. I guess ill end up just renting one
IMO this is actually a very good camera. the specs are realistic and makes sense. the price however is out of my reach. its definitely not in my market. I guess ill end up just renting one
Thomas Kist
Active member
Looks like the Canon Scoopic is back. It will be interesting to do a sub $20.000 shoot out soon.
Haven't seen any good handheld rigs in all the behind the scenes stuff. Allways good to have choices!
Haven't seen any good handheld rigs in all the behind the scenes stuff. Allways good to have choices!
It does come with a 4" flip out adjustable LCD, which is mounted to a control unit that has transport controls, two XLRs and a few other things. The control unit (and LCD) can me mounted in several positions on the camera or be completely removed. There is a pigtail cable that goes to the camera. The camera will need 3rd party accessories if you want to shoulder mount, but it comes with a side grip if you've got a light lens and want to go handheld.
Canon tested the DR to be 12 stops with log. That 12 stops is pretty uniform across the entire ISO range, except at lower ISOs, it shifts more towards the shadows. Base ISO is rated at 850.
dccloud said:
The camera initially processes the green channel at 13 bits and the red and blue channels at 12 bits each. This is where the nonlinear log processing happens, but then the video signals are subsequently matriced into 4:2:2 prior to compression. Canon says "The serial representation of the uncompressed 4:2:2 component set is structured from the parallel 8-bit component set and is fed to the camera's HD SDI interface allowing parallel outboard recording to be implemented if desired." So this sounds like HD-SDI is also 8-bit but I will try to confirm tomorrow at Paramount.
Thomas Kist
Active member
BTW that 14.5-60 mm lens has me drooling!
basing on the interview and xf300, im betting its 10bit.
8 bit wrapped in 10 bit would be very very stupid. it would put this a notch below f3 and very overpriced
8 bit log goes against everythign LOG is about.
The point is that you re distribute your exposure values. this means taking whats at 35-40 IRE and pushing it up to almost 60.
I have "graded" 8bit log seen here:
but in its un-vimeo form its far more macroblocked and grainy.
8bit is bad for LOG, period.
The point is that you re distribute your exposure values. this means taking whats at 35-40 IRE and pushing it up to almost 60.
I have "graded" 8bit log seen here:
but in its un-vimeo form its far more macroblocked and grainy.
8bit is bad for LOG, period.
Duke M.
Veteran
Timur, when doing this test did you use the trick of rendering in 32bit mode so the program would have more color space to render out the colors? Or was it rendered in 8-10 bit?