Was giving up on a AF100 but decided to reconsider.

[SJX]

This looks good. For some reason a couple of shots stand out as more filmic. Just the way the lighting and skin tones were rendered. I'm talking about the shots at 1:20 and 3.59.

This has the video look. I don't think it comes down to just lighting as you have low-key shots in there with very filmic lighting but it still looks video. I think it may be down to exposure and camera settings. I hear with this camera is best to "overexpose" than "underexpose." But I'm starting to think overexposing is what is making it look like video. Also, which f-stop did you shoot this? Most shots, specially inside the apartment look very deep focus or not shallow enough. This may have contributed to the video look.

They both look technically good though and the dark shots when she sleeps looks pretty clean. Maybe vimeo compression was hiding the noise or it didn't have any.

 

[SJX]

By the way, so many replies and nobody took the time to answer my questions. I thought this was THE place to come for the AF100. But if I can't find community and user support here I fear I will not find any if I buy the camera. Unless nobody know the answers. But if that's the case, does that mean the more experienced users have moved on to other cameras and no longer post?

 

[Gary Huff]

By the way, so many replies and nobody took the time to answer my questions. I thought this was THE place to come for the AF100. But if I can't find community and user support here I fear I will not find any if I buy the camera

I guess, heaven forbid, you'd have to discover some things on your own. I would dial back on the sense of entitlement here. Leaves a sour taste.

 

[SJX]

I guess, heaven forbid, you'd have to discover some things on your own.

Well, that would require having the camera first. Then if it's not what I need I sell it again? Seems backwards. Besides wouldn't it also defeat the purpose of forums like these?

I would dial back on the sense of entitlement here. Leaves a sour taste.

Don't get me wrong. I don't feel entitled to anything. But when you ask clear specific questions and get posts suggesting cameras when this is not even the topic and suggesting cameras that don't even meet the criteria, it kind of bags the question, whats the point of replying if not to address the case at hand?

 

[Gary Huff]

Well, that would require having the camera first. Then if it's not what I need I sell it again? Seems backwards. Besides wouldn't it also defeat the purpose of forums like these?

It doesn't defeat the purpose because sometimes it all ends up to you needing to play with the camera and see if it's what you want. Heavily compressed Vimeo samples can only take you so far, and uploading full-quality 4:2:2 SDI/HDMI recorded captures takes a lot of time and space that costs money. I am sorry you apparently don't have anywhere to actually rent the camera around you, but that's not anyone's fault.

Don't get me wrong. I don't feel entitled to anything. But when you ask clear specific questions and get posts suggesting cameras when this is not even the topic and suggesting cameras that don't even meet the criteria, it kind of begs the question, whats the point of replying if not to address the case at hand?

We're on page three and you got one post suggesting a different camera. Are you really so upset about that one post that it caused you to berate people here for not giving you exactly what you want in the time you have allotted for it?

The other option would be the D800, which I know is also only 8bit 4:2:2, has more aliasing and moire, but at least it's cheaper, seems sharper, seems to handle highlights better, has better or at least comparable dynamic range and has a larger chip with much better low light performance, which will come in handy for the very few night externals. I really don't care about the sensor size regarding DOF. It's shallow enough really!

This doesn't exactly help make it clear that you're interested in ONLY talking about the AF100 either.

 

[David W. Jones]

SJX, not trying to be rude here, but by going through your posts you come off as being very young. Some very experienced shooters have tried to point you in the right direction, but you seem to blow them off because that's not the answer you wanted to hear. Do you mind me asking your age and the budget you have for shooting this feature film?

All the Best!

Dave

 

[SJX]

It doesn't defeat the purpose because sometimes it all ends up to you needing to play with the camera and see if it's what you want. Heavily compressed Vimeo samples can only take you so far, and uploading full-quality 4:2:2 SDI/HDMI recorded captures takes a lot of time and space that costs money.

From my 10 questions, only 1 of them asks for any sample footage for example. The rest are all questions about the camera use and can be answered from experience, without costing "money". So I don't know why you're focusing on footage and why so many have given links to footage when the huge majority of my thread is about the camera functions, features and user experience. I knew before I started this thread that the camera can put out good looking footage.

We're on page three and you got one post suggesting a different camera. Are you really so upset about that one post that it caused you to berate people here for not giving you exactly what you want in the time you have allotted for it?

No. This is was just clear example that some may not be reading the original post or even skipped to the questions, which would be also fine.
But yes, we are on page three and although only one suggested a camera, nobody answered a single of the questions. It was starting to become about "The AF100 can make good images" while this is not the topic at hand. I already know that.

This doesn't exactly help make it clear that you're interested in ONLY talking about the AF100 either.

I know. Maybe I should have left that totally out. But the meat and potatoes of the thread are the 10 questions, which I not only made bold but put a disclaimer in the beginning calling attention to it. And reading the questions I don't think anybody can assume the thread is not about the AF100 when every question is about it.

I don't want to come across the wrong way. But again I have to ask what's the point of replying to a question if you are not replying to the question?

And it has nothing to do with the time I have allotted for it. A reply is a reply. It takes the same time to write a sentence, whether it is the answer to a question or not. If people don't know the answers, no a problem at all. But I felt the thread was starting to stray and go off topic, with people suggesting good looking footage and even starting to suggest other cameras, while the thread topic was specifically about the AF100 functions and quirks with very specific questions. I felt it was my right as the topic starter to try to bring it back to topic. If i didn't have that right then I wasn't aware. If I came across in a wrong way, then I apologize. It wasn't my intention to be rude. Just wanted to keep focus on the issue at hand.

 

[SJX]

SJX, not trying to be rude here, but by going through your posts you come off as being very young. Some very experienced shooters have tried to point you in the right direction, but you seem to blow them off because that's not the answer you wanted to hear.

Nothing to do with the answer i wanted to hear really. More to do with the answer to a question i didn't ask.

But apart from the guy who suggested the 5D, who else did i "brush off"?

To the people who gave links I commented on the footage and even asked questions about it.

To the people who suggested renting or trying the camera on my own I explained why I couldn't.

How is that brushing of?

Is there any other posts trying to stir me in the "right direction" I missed or brushed off?

Do you mind me asking your age and the budget you have for shooting this feature film?

Not at all Dave. I'm 28 and have been shooting for almost 10 years. The budget for the camera was initially $3,000 but I'm willing to go up to the AF100's price.

 

[David W. Jones]

So is this $3000 for the purchase of the AF100 your total budget for this feature film?

 

[SJX]

No. This is the budget for the camera body only.
Lens set, external monitor, mattebox, follow focus and other camera accessories I have. As well as lighting kit, jib, dolly etc, although I think this has nothing to do with this discussion.

This is what we have determined for the camera body. It could be spent buying or renting a camera body. But with our schedule renting would most likely be above that.
I would think the budget for the whole film doesn't really play a role in this discussion once we know the AF100 price is the limit.

 

[mcbob]

A few answers as best as I can for you...

Is there a solid resolution test to indicate how many lines the AF100 resolves?
Yes. http://thebrownings.name/WHP034/ (addendum 66)

Are there scene files to minimize noise without sacrificing ...dynamic range...
Yes, one example: http://marvelsfilm.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/panny-af100-af101-flat-picture-style-for-cinematic-look/

What is the trick to avoid the nasty highlights?
White balance properly and avoid over-exposure. If you need blow-outs, push highlights up in post.

Any tricks to avoid noise...?
add light, use B.Press, lower Master Pedestal, operate at lower ISO (<1600 or so)

What is the function called Dynamic Range Stretch exactly? Does it bring up noise? When it's recommended to be used?
It's a function to stretch dynamic range by increasing gain in the shadows. It brings up noise and is recommended to be used in ENG/Doc footage where noise matters less than getting the shot.

What is the function called Area Function Prioritizing for focus or exposure exactly?
What is the cheapest lens that works with the Face Tracking function?
Can't tell you for certain, I don't typically use AF... cheapest AF lens would be the Lumix 14-42 (albeit it's not the greatest of lenses)

I have a 7D. Is the low light at least as good as a 7D? I know the 7D has a larger sensor but it also has more megapixels.
One comparo test I know of with the two: http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-camera-shootout-2011/episode-one
All three episodes will give you a good idea of the comparisons

Not really a question but more a concern. Wide lenses!
Lumix 7-14. Lumix 12-35. Olympus 12/2. SLR Magic 12/T1.6. Nikon Tokina 11-16. All kick ass. There is no wide lens problem (paying for them, though...)

Is there any example of AF100 footage recorded from the HDMI 4:2:2?
Many. Quick and partial search: https://vimeo.com/search?q=af100+nanoflash



Personal recommendation? The 7D may not be perfect, but you already have it and (presumably) know how to use it, and it still works pretty well. Spend your budget on extra crew, better actors, and light and modifiers.

 

[Bruce196]

I have followed this thread with interest but cannot see how it can continue unless some basic moves are made. Sensible suggestions have been rejected for various reasons. Renting/borrowing a camera for a few days is the only way out to view original camera material and make your own judgements. The cost involved is nothing compared to messing up the whole project. Various contributors have pointed you in the direction of high quality AF100 material that has satisfied a lot of producers/viewers/clients. If the AF100 is not up to your exacting standards then surely the self imposed camera budget cannot dictate the whole project? Cut back on something else if you need to shoot on a more up market camera as your picture quality is the investment. At present if I was a dealer I would not want to sell you the AF100 as no doubt there will be never ending hassle ahead. Good luck with your quest.

 

[David W. Jones]

I would think the budget for the whole film doesn't really play a role in this discussion once we know the AF100 price is the limit.

The reason I asked is because there are many experienced filmmakers on this site that might be able to give you valuable insight into ways to increase your camera budget, offer valuable rental package options, and help make your money go farther if they knew your budgetary breakdowns on this feature film. Many of the people offering advice have been earning a living in this field for much longer than you have been alive, and are just trying to help.

All the Best!

Dave

 

[TheDingo]

...Here's another AF-100 film to consider, this time a commercial feature shot with the AF-100:

The Raid : Redemption - Official Trailer

IMDB Technical Specs for "The Raid : Redemption"

 

[SJX]

At Last! :beer:

Thanks!

A few answers as best as I can for you...

Is there a solid resolution test to indicate how many lines the AF100 resolves?
Yes. http://thebrownings.name/WHP034/ (addendum 66)

Thanks. I will check it out.

Are there scene files to minimize noise without sacrificing ...dynamic range...
Yes, one example: http://marvelsfilm.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/panny-af100-af101-flat-picture-style-for-cinematic-look/

Aha! I was hoping for something similar to the Technicolor for the 7D. Thanks!

What is the trick to avoid the nasty highlights?
White balance properly and avoid over-exposure. If you need blow-outs, push highlights up in post.

Ok. This is basically good advice with any digital camera. Sound tips. Thanks. But one problem is in uncontrolled situations such as day externals where you have a very bright object in the background, such as made of metal and if you expose so that wont clip, your actor will be dark, unless you got a huge HMI or is a tight shot to bring a bounce really really close. I was hoping more for some sort of scene file of something that would make the highlight handling slightly better rather than going through hoops on set to avoid it. Maybe the marvel flat profile will help a bit the dynamic range and highlights? I will have to read on it.

Any tricks to avoid noise...?
add light, use B.Press, lower Master Pedestal, operate at lower ISO (<1600 or so)

I have been reading a lot of people recommending B.Press. Is it that good of an all around curve to just set it and leave the camera on it full time? Or is there situations it's just totally wrong for?

What is the function called Dynamic Range Stretch exactly? Does it bring up noise? When it's recommended to be used?
It's a function to stretch dynamic range by increasing gain in the shadows. It brings up noise and is recommended to be used in ENG/Doc footage where noise matters less than getting the shot.

Ok. Good to know. Thanks!

What is the function called Area Function Prioritizing for focus or exposure exactly?

I guess the answer for this one didn't come through? Just pointing it out in case was some typo or mistake. In case you don't know, no worries.

What is the cheapest lens that works with the Face Tracking function?
Can't tell you for certain, I don't typically use AF... cheapest AF lens would be the Lumix 14-42 (albeit it's not the greatest of lenses)

Will any Lumix lens with auto focus work with the face tracking?

I have a 7D. Is the low light at least as good as a 7D? I know the 7D has a larger sensor but it also has more megapixels.
One comparo test I know of with the two: http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-camera-shootout-2011/episode-one
All three episodes will give you a good idea of the comparisons.

Yeah, I watched that. The Zacuto test is great. I was just looking for a couple more first hand opinions from people who have used both cameras.

Not really a question but more a concern. Wide lenses!
Lumix 7-14. Lumix 12-35. Olympus 12/2. SLR Magic 12/T1.6. Nikon Tokina 11-16. All kick ass. There is no wide lens problem (paying for them, though...)

Sure. But besides the money you ran into short focus course, no focus gears, no standard front size for matteboxes and all the problems I bought a S35 lens set to avoid, which is shooting with still lenses. I would need to add a mismatched lens to my set to get wide angle.

Is there any example of AF100 footage recorded from the HDMI 4:2:2?
Many. Quick and partial search: https://vimeo.com/search?q=af100+nanoflash

Nanoflash. Didn't think of that. Tried searching with the Hyperdeck. I will check the footage, thanks!

Personal recommendation? The 7D may not be perfect, but you already have it and (presumably) know how to use it, and it still works pretty well. Spend your budget on extra crew, better actors, and light and modifiers.

If the 7D had a clean 4:2:2 HDMI to bypass the nasty H.264 and was sharper maybe I would. But the lack of the above plus having to continuously tell the talent, "hold on, move a little over here so that building full with moire can be off frame" gets pretty tiresome.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer the questions!

 

[KyleProhaska]

In regards to your questions about uncontrollable situations, I can only say know your camera. There are situations that every single camera out there will just suck at. Some lighting situations you can't control might just look awful. No picture profile or exposure setting is going to save you really when you're in situations where the DR of the camera at hand just can't expose both your actor and a bright highlight behind them. The answer to the problem is to find a different shot or get it elsewhere or live with it.

You won't see a dramatic difference in the HDMI's 4:2:2 signal. In post sure maybe a little bit, but it's not going to save you from the kind of things you seem to be talking about. DR wise it won't help really at all. Maybe a HAIR in terms of how much you can push around without destroying the shot, but it won't be a make or break it situation at all...it'll have everything to do with what shot you chose and what exposure you chose on the day.

"I would need to add a mismatched lens to my set to get wide angle." - Yep, just gotta deal with that. IMO it's not a big deal.

"I have been reading a lot of people recommending B.Press. Is it that good of an all around curve to just set it and leave the camera on it full time? Or is there situations it's just totally wrong for?" - See this is what I mean about you asking questions that seem odd. No picture profile is perfect for every situation. If you want the most DR the camera can provide then Cine-D is what you should use but it offers some consequences you might not want. There's no set-it and forget-it on any camera, but there might be a happy medium for most things. B.Press with Knee on LOW is what I tend to use with Norm2. It tends to work for pretty much whatever I want and if I come into a situation where it seems like I might want some more info in the blacks, I'll switch it up a little.

Don't bother with DRS unless you're in a really specific situation where it seems like it could help. The noise it introduces is heavy though so beware. In well lit situations it can be less noticeable though so you'll have to just test things and make a judgement call.

 

[SJX]

...Here's another AF-100 film to consider, this time a commercial feature shot with the AF-100:

The Raid : Redemption - Official Trailer

IMDB Technical Specs for "The Raid : Redemption"

Yeah, I know about this film.

I really did my homework on the AF100 or at least most of it. I've been reading on it and watching footage for a while now. When I came here I came with enough information and what I asked were really just things I couldn't find or that would depend on first hand user experiences.

About Redemption, did you find a single screen grab online that doesn't look murky or washed out? I tried searching even for Blu-ray frame grabs but couldn't find anything that didn't look beat up. The only frame I found that looked good seems to be a production still taken with a proper stills camera.

I think this is one of the cases where they chose the camera not because of the images it makes but because it suited their shooting style, and they didn't even try to get the best out of it because they were going for the documentary trashy look. Similar to why Soderbergh or Boyle shot Full Frontal and 28 Days Later with the Canon XL DV cameras.

 

[TheDingo]

About Redemption, did you find a single screen grab online that doesn't look murky or washed out?

The AF-100 doesn't have the resolution of the $10K+ cameras, but the image it produces isn't murky or washed out. You have do do this in post if this is what you're after. ( i.e. I don't think the look of Redemption is caused by the AF-100 )

 

[SJX]

In regards to your questions about uncontrollable situations, I can only say know your camera. There are situations that every single camera out there will just suck at. Some lighting situations you can't control might just look awful. No picture profile or exposure setting is going to save you really when you're in situations where the DR of the camera at hand just can't expose both your actor and a bright highlight behind them. The answer to the problem is to find a different shot or get it elsewhere or live with it.

I know. But if the camera you use don't clip the highlights in such a nasty way as the AF100 you have to worry less about it. I'm aware of what you said above. I guess what i was pointlessly hoping was somebody tell me something i don't know that would be a game changer in this regard. Such as, "Have you been living in a cave, Panasonic made it much better with a firmware update", or "There's actually a hack that minimizes it and makes it much better" or something like that. I know, not likely. But I just wanted to make sure I'm not missing any info on the matter.

You won't see a dramatic difference in the HDMI's 4:2:2 signal. In post sure maybe a little bit, but it's not going to save you from the kind of things you seem to be talking about. DR wise it won't help really at all. Maybe a HAIR in terms of how much you can push around without destroying the shot, but it won't be a make or break it situation at all...it'll have everything to do with what shot you chose and what exposure you chose on the day.

Well, small gains are still gains. I know it wont help on DN or resolution. But it will definitely help in grading and how much you can push your colors before the image falls apart. This plus no compression artifacts makes it worth it for me. But it may be just me.

"I would need to add a mismatched lens to my set to get wide angle." - Yep, just gotta deal with that. IMO it's not a big deal.

Well, I guess this is subjective. One invests a lot of money on real cinema lenses, all matched, with same diameter fronts, focus gears, no clicking apeartures, long traveling focus, just to have to go back and shoot with a still lens. For people who shoot with still lenses anyway, sure. An off brand in a Nikon or Canon EF set is a lesser deal.

"I have been reading a lot of people recommending B.Press. Is it that good of an all around curve to just set it and leave the camera on it full time? Or is there situations it's just totally wrong for?" - See this is what I mean about you asking questions that seem odd. No picture profile is perfect for every situation.

I guess I just worded it badly. What I meant was the happy medium you mention. For example with the EX cameras I basically use cine4 for everything but very special situations. I think it grades the best.

If you want the most DR the camera can provide then Cine-D is what you should use but it offers some consequences you might not want.

Such as? Do tell, please.

There's no set-it and forget-it on any camera, but there might be a happy medium for most things. B.Press with Knee on LOW is what I tend to use with Norm2. It tends to work for pretty much whatever I want and if I come into a situation where it seems like I might want some more info in the blacks, I'll switch it up a little.

So you also recommend B.Press for shots with lots of contrast like sunny with shadows?

Don't bother with DRS unless you're in a really specific situation where it seems like it could help. The noise it introduces is heavy though so beware. In well lit situations it can be less noticeable though so you'll have to just test things and make a judgement call.

Noted, thanks!

 

[Barry_Green]

By the way, does Barry offer tips to dealing with the ugly highlights and noise in his AF100 book? Apart from the obvious avoid highlights and dark shadows I mean. Things like scene files and tips on how to set the camera. If I end up getting the AF100 I will also buy his book. I think it's the best on the AF100 out there?

A lot of what you're reading (like that Art Adams article) was done when the AF100 was brand new and nobody really knew how to shoot with it yet.

There is zero noise in the AF100, when you set the settings properly. ZERO. Zero zero zero discernible noise. Look at this vimeo for comparisons of the noise levels at various ISO's:

As far as highlights go, what people are really complaining about there is when different chroma channels clip at different levels, causing a shift in highlights. And yes, the first answer I offer is "don't overexpose". That's been rule #1 with video, ever since video first came about, fer cryin' out loud. But if you want to increase your overexposure latitude without encountering color shifting, that's also easily done -- once again, it's just about knowing the camera and configuring it for what you're trying to do. The AF100 has a very saturated color palette, and the higher the color saturation, the higher the differences between color channels, and therefore the more likelihood that overexposing will cause one of those color channels to clip. So desaturate the image, and use cine-D gamma, and you will vastly expand the range you can shoot under without encountering color shifts.