Wanted: HVX + integrated REV drive!

[Gibby]

A few months ago, on this board, I posted a thread about the use of Iomega REV drives for digital video acquisition use, and expressed that it wouldn't be long before a manufacturer released a camcorder integrating the REV drives. Last week Grass Valley made such an announcement, with it's Infinity: http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/p...nity/camcorder/

What if Panasonic, for the HVX200, would have cut (or perhaps they still can?) a deal with Iomega for the same thing Grass Valley did with the Infinity. Picture the HVX without a tape drive, and in it's place a REV drive. REV disks store about 2 hours of SD video and about 45 minutes of HD video. They are 35 gig, and currently cost $199.95 for a FOUR PACK on the Iomega web site. That's about $50 for 45 minutes of DVCProHD storage, a rate of just over $1 per minute of DVCProHD storage. REV drive data transfer rate easily fast enough for DVCProHD. External REV drives only cost $400, so it wouldn't have cost Panasonic very much to incorporate the REV drives into the HVX. In fact, the REV drives probably wouldn't have cost Panasonic any more than the tape drives they put in the HVX. The GV Infinity also uses inexpensive standard Compact Flash cards, not proprietary P2 cards. Sure, the Infinity is a full-sized, 2/3" camera positioned above the HVX, but its increased price is obviously because of the camera head, CCD's, etc., not because it incorporates REV drives and generic Compact Flash.

I'll be buying an HVX, but most of what I do is mobile production, where lugging a laptop is not feasible. The new Firestore is external, thus not as attractive an option as an integrated REV drive would be for mobile production. I have no connection whatsoever with Iomega - I'm just someone who connects the dots for tech utility.

Panasonic: if it's too late to offer an integrated REV option in the HVX, how about an HVX200A with that option as a quick follow-up release?

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[mr._guiyotinne]

i think it´s too late, but not to firestore, or maybe quickstream DV: the latter have a not so good product and something like this would make them improve for sure... Or maybe a new company: Somebody there in the great blue, hear our words!

 

[Gopher_Greene]

Personally I don't want a hard drive in the camera. External option fine, an option to swap drive instead of P2 fine. Then you can have your HD and I'll take the solid state. Reason being, HDs can crash, solid state not as likely. HDs make noise, solid state none. I'd rather have the solid state memory. They will get cheaper and increase in capacity as time goes on. HDs will still be spining.

I guess like the garden party, "you can't please everyone"

JMHO

 

[Gibby]

Personally I don't want a hard drive in the camera. External option fine, an option to swap drive instead of P2 fine. Then you can have your HD and I'll take the solid state. Reason being, HDs can crash, solid state not as likely. HDs make noise, solid state none. I'd rather have the solid state memory. They will get cheaper and increase in capacity as time goes on. HDs will still be spining.

The REV drives have a good reputation for being rugged, reliable, and quiet. Being internal, it would be much more appropriate for "run and gun" work than an external Firestore drive. Solid state is great, and has many benefits. To me, the ideal HVX would have no tape drive, but would have a REV drive and also use generic Compact Flash cards. If you check the specs for the new GV Infinity camera, it will record simultaneously to the REV drive and the Compact Flash. Backup and editing media made at the same time. If a REV drive is dependable enough for a camera that costs three times what an HVX costs, shouldn't it be dependable enough for an HVX?

Price per GB of storage?

Current *dependable* retail outlets list the FireStore FS-4 80GB for $1,500, a REV drive (as a feeder for your NLE) with four 35 gig drives at $600, P2 8GB cards at $2,200, and SanDisk 8GB Compact Flash cards at $725.

Dividing the number of gigs of storage into the price for each of those storage solutions above here is the cost per gig for each:

8GB P2 = $275 per GB
8GB Compact Flash = $90 per GB
80GB Firestore FS-4 = $18.75 per GB
170GB (4 disks) + deck REV drive = $4.28 per GB

For storage cost per GB and ruggedness for mobile applications, my ideal HVX integrated REV drive - and the storage per GB would be roughly one fourth of what it would be for the FireStore.

For solid state storage, my ideal HVX would use generic Compact Flash cards, which have the same storage as the proprietary P2 cards - and cost me only one third of what the P2 cards cost per GB of storage.

If a tech company with an excellent history in television tech such as Grass Valley can integrate REV drives and inexpensive generic Compact Flash into what will undoubtedly be an excellent professional camcorder (Infinity), why can't Panasonic do the same with the HVX200? The REV drives would cost Panasonic roughly the same as a tape drive. And why does Panasonic use proprietary P2, as opposed to the generic Compact Flash that the GV Infinity will use? Can you spell PROFIT MARGIN?

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

I wouldn't trust ANYTHING Iomega makes after the whole JAZ drive fiasco!

 

[Gibby]

I wouldn't trust ANYTHING Iomega makes after the whole JAZ drive fiasco!

Thomson Grass Valley's tech department evidently feels they knows something you don't. They have a long track record for reliable professional equipment and they're launching a $20,000 per camera body HD camcorder with an integrated REV drive and Compact Flash - the Infinity. But REV drives aren't good enough for an HVX that costs one-third the Infinity?

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi all,

I have 20-25 Zip drives and about 15 Jazz drives, not a single one of them spin up at this time. I am not convinced that the REV drive is THE answer to anyone but to IOmega.

Best,

Jan

 

[stephenvv]

Hi all,

I have 20-25 Zip drives and about 15 Jazz drives, not a single one of them spin up at this time. I am not convinced that the REV drive is THE answer to anyone but to IOmega.

Best,

Jan

I agree - after swearing off Iomega years ago aftering supporting users with constant Zip and Jazz problems (I used to work in IT), I bought a Rev drive and 1 TB of disk for backing up my production studio off-site. The Rev drive worked once and the promptly bit the dust and destroyed a disc in the process. Fortunately, I bought from Dell which took it back for refund and paid return shipping. I bought a VXA2 tape drive off eBay instead. Works like a champ.

But unless Iomega has re-engineered the Rev from ground up since 2004 when I bought mine, it was not that fast, not silent by any means, and did not feel P2 solid, that's for sure.

I saw the Grass Valley annoucement and wondered why? I've had better luck putting cheap laptop 2.5" or 1.8" drives in aluminum external firewire/usb2 chassis and little homemade shock protection. Captured DV video just fine on battery power for my last two films.

Not in my camera...

 

[Gibby]

I don't think anyone would look at REV as a long term storage medium. When BR-DVD *finally* is distributed it will undoubtedly be adopted widely in the media business. The REV drive is being looked at as a intermediate storage medium. Work flow: simultaneous recording for redundancy to CF and REV, feeding footage via REV into your NLE, editing and compositing, mastering for broadcast out to required tape format (HDCAM, etc.), and if BR-DVD is available, archiving on BR-DVD and tape. The alternative to that workflow would be to use the CF for loading into the NLE, and once the footage is safely into the NLE, keep either the CF or REV footage and empty the other for re-use.

REV is in wide use in the graphic design industry, which, with media convergence, is essentially now a part of the television and video production industry. Nobody disputes that Iomega had problems with some of their previous cartridge systems. REV has proven to be much more reliable. Some of my contract graphic designers have been using them with no complaints whatsoever.

If we wrote off every tech product company that had problems with a product we would be writing off every company on the planet. Which automobile manufacturer has never had a recall for technical problems? And yet we all still drive cars made by them. Which computer company has never made a faulty product? And yet we all still use their products. Which aircraft manufacturer has never had tech problems with their product? And yet we all still fly. Which camera manufacturer has created a perfect camera? None, and yet we still use their cameras. If we start writing off companies like Iomega for previously having problems with a tech product, then shouldn't we keep writing off other companies until nobody buys any products of any kind? I'm obviously being facetious.

Our industry is full of old technology that was supposed to go away and didn't - Beta SP, tape itself, and on and on. I see REV as a good answer right now for an intermediate recording medium in the workflow I described above. Obviously Thomson GV agrees with that. My original post that started this thread simply expresses that Panasonic should consider the same thing as an option for the HVX200. Panasonic likes to talk about the tapeless workflow of P2 - while they've still included a tape drive in the HVX. The GV Infinity at least made the leap to entirely tapeless acquisition. I like Panasonic. I regularly use a Varicam, SDX900, and a DVX100A. But I'm brand agnostic - I use cameras from multiple manufacturers. My taking the time to suggest a REV drive as an option for the HVX was not a criticism of Panasonic, but rather a constructive suggestion for tapeless production workflow.

P2 is another story. Keeping project budgets manageable is paramount in today’s business climate, and Compact Flash is a lot less expensive than P2. The Infinity's use of inexpensive CF, plus the excellent JPEG2000 compression, is a wakeup call for Panasonic to lower the cost of P2 and increase its storage capacity. The Infinity should be a serious competitor to many of the higher-end Panasonic cameras. Competition is good for us consumers...

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[Gibby]

But unless Iomega has re-engineered the Rev from ground up since 2004 when I bought mine, it was not that fast, not silent by any means

Quote from Thomson GV's press release on the Infinity camera: "The REV PRO disk, the professional extension to Iomega’s proven REV format, was developed in conjunction with Grass Valley to deliver professional video performance on consumer-level hardware and media."

Fast? GV's PDF for the cartridge claims 110 mb/s, plenty fast for high definition acquisition.

Silent? None of my graphic designers that use the REV disks complain about noise or a lack of dependability.

Maybe some reading of the Iomega and Infinity PDF files would help you:

www.iomega.com

http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/products/infinity/camcorder/

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[blazingoat]

um, i don't think 110mb/s is enough for DVCPRO HD. It's 100mb/s and don't you need a wider margine of saftey?

Also, HOW THE HELL IS GV putting video onto COMPACT FLASH?!?! - I thought the transfer speed was too low and capacity tops out @ 2gigs right?

 

[Gibby]

um, i don't think 110mb/s is enough for DVCPRO HD. It's 100mb/s and don't you need a wider margine of saftey?

Also, HOW THE HELL IS GV putting video onto COMPACT FLASH?!?! - I thought the transfer speed was too low and capacity tops out @ 2gigs right?

Reports of REV speed range from 110mb/s (Thomson) to 200mb/s (Iomega). Thomson's press release states that the REV Pro was developed in collaboration between Iomega and Thomson. Perhaps its the REV Pro that is 110mb/s. 110mb/s should be able to handle DVCProHD. If not, the 200mb/s version would handle it easily. The JPEG 2000 compression of the Infinity camera is intraframe (like DVCProHD), 4:2:2, 10 bit, HD and SD, and has been selected by the Digital Cinema Initiatives Committee as the standard for digital motion picture content and delivery. JPEG 2000 may turn out to be a serious competitor to HDCAM and DVCProHD.

Read the Thomson Grass Valley Infinity literature for more info on the Infinity's use of Compact Flash for recording high definition and standard definition video.

Links:

http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/products/infinity/camcorder/

http://www.iomega.com/direct/produc...SORTMENT<>ast_id=26890319&bmUID=1127231846644

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[contentlab]

in regards to this discussion, why would it be a good idea to introduce a camera that makes use of 2 relatively new recording formats and NO standard tried&true formats. getting rid of the DV recording to replace it with an Iomega product would really be silly. there are enough people complaining about P2 cards as it is.

put yourself in the shoes of a panasonic engineer or marketing guy trying to convince your stoic japanese boss that you should develop and relase a camera that makes use of your companies P2 solution while ignoring the huge demographic of DV users on top of having to negotiate licensing of IP and sharing profits with Iomega. if you can do that then you might also try to get bill gates to replace all his home PC with iMacs

but seriously, my understanding is that the HVX uses DV and P2 so that owners can still do fantastic looking DV work which pays the bills and have a camera that they can use for HD as customer need increases. GV has the luxury of only catering to studio guys so they can take technology gambles like working with Iomega. indie film folks aren't going to scrap and save 30k just for one camera when they can have a 10k camera, and use the other 10-15k on an top notch edit system (FCP or AVID with terabytes of storage) and maybe use the other 5-10k to travel around the world getting some great HD content.

anyway my point is i dont see how it's reasonable to think that you can request panasonic to give up DV tape for Iomega. i'm surprised that Iomega even still exists. i have read about their latest technology and it is impressive but really they dont seem to be a major player in the storage world anymore which makes a partnership with panasonic a little bit unreasonable.

 

[blazingoat]

Contenlab - excelent points.

 

[Gibby]

in regards to this discussion, why would it be a good idea to introduce a camera that makes use of 2 relatively new recording formats and NO standard tried&true formats. getting rid of the DV recording to replace it with an Iomega product would really be silly. there are enough people complaining about P2 cards as it is.

Compact Flash and REV are not "recording formats", but rather recording mediums. Compact Flash relatively new compared to P2? Not really. CF was originally invented as NOR flash by Intel in 1988. Samsung and Toshiba then developed NAND flash in 1989. CF was first specified by SanDisk Corporation in 1994. P2, also based on flash technology, was not introduced by Panasonic until 2003. DV, in its MiniDV cassette, was first shipped in September 1995, and thus post-dates the development of CF.

REV, which was first introduced in April 2004, is a relatively new recording medium. It was specifically designed to handle the data rates of digital media. The REV Pro cartridges were developed by collaboration between Thomson Grass Valley and Iomega. Though it’s relatively new, versions of REV’s basic technology in product releases predates product releases using the technology of the DV format tape you mention.

put yourself in the shoes of a panasonic engineer or marketing guy trying to convince your stoic japanese boss that you should develop and relase a camera that makes use of your companies P2 solution while ignoring the huge demographic of DV users on top of having to negotiate licensing of IP and sharing profits with Iomega. if you can do that then you might also try to get bill gates to replace all his home PC with iMacs

Both CF and REV have the capability to record every format and resolution that the HVX can shoot - including DV. If the HVX is indeed a "prosumer' camera, most "prosumers" can easily afford an inexpensive CF reader and an inexpensive REV drive ($400). Incidentally, Apple is using flash memory in their new Nano iPod because CF is relatively cheap, fast, and dependable. P2 is fast and dependable, but far from being relatively cheap, especially when compared to CF.

but seriously, my understanding is that the HVX uses DV and P2 so that owners can still do fantastic looking DV work which pays the bills and have a camera that they can use for HD as customer need increases. GV has the luxury of only catering to studio guys so they can take technology gambles like working with Iomega. indie film folks aren't going to scrap and save 30k just for one camera when they can have a 10k camera, and use the other 10-15k on an top notch edit system (FCP or AVID with terabytes of storage) and maybe use the other 5-10k to travel around the world getting some great HD content.

How does and HVX user save by paying three times per-GB for P2 storage of what he/she would pay per-GB for CF storage? Its curious that Panasonic likes to emphasize a move to tapeless storage using P2 - while retaining tape-based storage with DV tape. Then they cut an HDD deal with Firestore that required HVX users to pay $1800 per FS-4, when a much less expensive HDD option for the users is available via a $400 REV drive. Incidentally, with the Infinity camera, GV is now moving ever closer to the "prosumer" camera market. If you think the Infinity camera will only be used by "studio guys", that's a misguided notion. Tons of independent producers and boutique production houses will also use the camera. The Infinity body will have a street price below $20k. An independent producer can simply rent the best lens for each particular production. The JPEG 2000 codec, which is intraframe, 4:2:2, 10 bit, is an alternative codec to DVCProHD. According to Graeme Nattress, JPEG 2000 is already supported by Final Cut Pro. Some modifications to FCP's handling of JPEG 2000 may need to be made by Apple but it will be a simple fix. Incidentally, Thomson GV is a member of the Panasonic P2 Alliance, along with Avid, Dayeng, Pinnacle, and Quantel.

anyway my point is i dont see how it's reasonable to think that you can request panasonic to give up DV tape for Iomega. i'm surprised that Iomega even still exists. i have read about their latest technology and it is impressive but really they dont seem to be a major player in the storage world anymore which makes a partnership with panasonic a little bit unreasonable.

Going completely tapeless while still inexpensively recording your DV format footage to an integrated HDD, as opposed to a bulky $1,800 aftermarket HDD doesn't sound logical and cost-effective to you? If you have another DV camera or deck, it would be a simple FireWire process to also backup your DV footage on DV tape if you wanted.

If you're a cost conscious producer on a budget, like many users on "prosumer" internet tech forums, you should probably be asking Panasonic why P2 cards, your only on-camera footage recording medium with the HVX, cost three times as much per-GB of storage than the CF cards the Infinity will use - when they are both based on flash technology. As consumers, which I am just like you, we need to question our equipment manufacturers, rather then just take what they want to supply us, get a pat on the head, and walk away happy. It's a free market economy and we're free to either buy or not buy products. The Infinity camera will probably be a success and the REV Pro discs jointly developed by GV and Iomega will probably work well in a production workflow. When BR-DVD ships, CF and REV would simply be intermediate storage mediums, both emptied when the original footage on them has been backed up to BR-DVD.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[Loki]

it sounds to me that mr. gibby here is a bit too excited over this product..

Iomega used to make great stuff...

If I buy an HD camera.. it will probably only be the HVX... just so I can support the P2 "medium"... and get it moving as a viable storage option.

besides... from the looks of it those REV disks are like 4x as big as a P2 card.. so your GB cost comparison is a little wonky... a disc that large is obviously going to have more space to cram those bits...

but then again I am just a P2 whore now :happy:

 

[Gibby]

it sounds to me that mr. gibby here is a bit too excited over this product..:

I'm excited about new ways to "connect the dots". In my post that started this thread I mentioned that I am planning on buying an HVX and that I regularly use Panasonic cameras (Varicam, SDX900, DVX100A), though I also use cameras from virtually every other manufacturer.

Iomega used to make great stuff...

Each of the graphic designers used by my company has used REV drives with excellent results. If you have some negative feedback on REV, lay some specifics on us, not this kind of generic statement.

If I buy an HD camera.. it will probably only be the HVX... just so I can support the P2 "medium"... and get it moving as a viable storage option.

You would buy an HVX only for P2 availability? The other good features of the HVX, like the DVCProHD codec, multiple resolutions, multiple frame rates, etc. wouldn't be considerations? And you would make flash-based P2 your deciding factor when flash-based Compact Flash is available for one third the cost per BG of storage? You wouldn't stop to ask Panasonic why P2 is so much more expensive than the equally-capable CF cards that will be using in the new GV Infinity camera? You wouldn't ask Panasonic why one of the members of the Panasonic P2 Alliance (GV), that also makes P2 decks, would opt to use CF for their new camera instead of Panasonic's proprietary - and overpriced - P2?

besides... from the looks of it those REV disks are like 4x as big as a P2 card.. so your GB cost comparison is a little wonky... a disc that large is obviously going to have more space to cram those bits...

but then again I am just a P2 whore now :happy:

My original post compared CF to P2, a fair comparison since they are both based on flash technology, and with the release of the Infinity camera both will now powering cameras. CF and P2 currently have the same storage capacity maximum. My original post compared the Firestore FS-4 HDD option to the REV HDD option in terms of cost per GB of storage. Why isn't that a fair comparison? You don't consider a big FS-4 sitting on top of your HVX to be large? If you're by your own admission "just a happy P2 whore now", be my guest. I think a wiser path is to be analytical and ask questions of manufacturers. The kind of questions I’m asking will help drive down the price of P2, thus benefiting us all…

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[stephenvv]

Maybe some reading of the Iomega and Infinity PDF files would help you:


Gibby
www.cut4.tv

Not really. Unless "Rev Pro" is a big step up from Rev, I was not impressed with the formats speed, cost or reliability, albeit I only used one unit, though used many Zip and Jazz in the past.

The Infinity looks like a geek/engineer cam. They barely talk about the camera and all the attention is on the recording technology, PDA interface, ethernet connections etc.

Looks like tech for ENG/EFP and don't see it having much benefit for other. Plus, the P2 mechanism, both drive and media, is far simpler, smaller and more durable than REV. And I don't see much info on their CF aspect - it seems more an afterthought.

 

[Loki]

Of course I would buy the camera for other reasons, but I suppose I should have explicitly stated that fact.

What is the point of comparing a technology that is as far as I know only useable on 1 camera... and is on a camera that is 4 times the price of the HVX...

I am guessing here.. but something tells me this just isn't going to catch on at all. I'd rather use XD-CAM or P2...

P2 has a data throughput (sustained I might add) of 640 MBps... compared to the REV bandwidth of 110Mbps... P2 is signifcantly smaller.

Now I cannot accurately comment on the price of the P2... but something tells it is from two things: a) the quality of the flash SD cards used in the system. b) branding.

This tech just isn't exciting.. it seems to me that Iomega is trying to save itself from obscurity... yawn.

as an aside.. what does it matter about cost per GB when you can only use this medium with one camera...?

 

[Gibby]

Not really. Unless "Rev Pro" is a big step up from Rev, I was not impressed with the formats speed, cost or reliability, albeit I only used one unit, though used many Zip and Jazz in the past..

Well, my graphic designers have used the REV drives extensively and they were impressed with the speed, cost, and reliability. What do Zip and Jaz drives have to do with REV and REV Pro outside of being previously manufactured by Iomega? Because a '98 Chevrolet Camaro had problems, does that mean a '05 Chevrolet Impala is doomed to have problems?

The Infinity looks like a geek/engineer cam. They barely talk about the camera and all the attention is on the recording technology, PDA interface, ethernet connections etc.

Are you talking about the press release, the brochure PDF, or the fact sheet PDF? The info paragraph headings in the Fact Sheet PDF on the GV web site are: Advanced Camera Technology, IT-based Recording Media, On-board Selectable Compression, Ultimate Connectivity, User Interface, Enhancing Your Workflow, and Key Features. The brochure PDF file on the GV web site has info paragraph headings of: Infinity Digital Media Camcorder, Infinity Digital Media Recorder, Professional Grade Compact Flash, DV and MPEG Compression, JPEG 2000, and The New Work Flow – Yours. Between these two PDF’s GV gives a balanced overview of the new camcorder, recorder, and media used.

Looks like tech for ENG/EFP and don't see it having much benefit for other. Plus, the P2 mechanism, both drive and media, is far simpler, smaller and more durable than REV. And I don't see much info on their CF aspect - it seems more an afterthought.

FCP will already handle the JPEG 2000 codec. According to Graeme Nattress, simple modifications to FCP placing a QT wrapper on the files may be all that is necessary for editing JPEG 2000 in FCP. The excellent Nattress plugins for FCP will already handle JPEG 2000, thus enabling the creation of smooth 24p footage from the resolutions the camera shoots, including 1080i50/60, 720p50/60, 625i50, 525i60, DVCAM, and DCVPRO. And smooth 24p in those HD and SD resolutions doesn’t open up more application genres than ENG/EFP? Add in configurations like prime lenses, matte box, follow focus, etc., which can all be rented cost effectively, and indie production enabled. The Pro Compact Flash mechanism on the Infinity camera is basically the same size as Panasonic P2 mechanisms, so why compare the size of the REV mechanism to a P2 mechanism? The Infinity has a CF mechanism AND a REV mechanism. The CF isn’t an afterthought it’s described in both of the PDF files. The camera will record simultaneously to CF and REV, thus providing redundancy. The Digital Media Recorder is also described as handling both CF and REV. The CF is obviously positioned as the highest and best use, with REV being the replacement for a tape drive, and a backup for the CF recording capability.

Look, I have absolutely no connection to Thomson Grass Valley or Iomega. I’ve simply taken the time on DVX User to suggest a recording medium alternative to Panasonic – a REV drive. I use Panasonic products extensively and will continue to do so – but I also use products from nearly every other manufacturer. A penny saved is a penny earned. The JPEG 2000 codec is equal to, if not superior to the DVCProHD codec. Add to that Compact Flash that is much cheaper then P2, and a non-tape option in using REV, and all of a sudden Panasonic users have a viable alternative camera.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv