Wanted: HVX + integrated REV drive!

[Gibby]

What is the point of comparing a technology that is as far as I know only useable on 1 camera... and is on a camera that is 4 times the price of the HVX... ...?

True this is the first broadcast-quality camera to use Compact Flash and REV. When the first Panasonic camera using P2 flash was introduced, what was the point in comparing technology of that camera and other cameras on the market? Because staying informed on each successive technology and new uses of existing technology is how competing professional stay ahead of the competition. In fact, isn’t comparing new technology and networking the two main reasons for even logging on to tech chat boards like DVX User? With the currently gigantic cost of P2 cards, an HVX with two or three cards can easily put an HVX purchase to a cost of half what the Infinity camera will cost.

I am guessing here.. but something tells me this just isn't going to catch on at all. I'd rather use XD-CAM or P2...

Only time will tell, so it’s a moot point right now. You’d rather use P2 at roughly three times the cost per GB than CF? When they’re both based on the same flash technology and perform basically the same? Interesting. GV and nobody else is claiming that REV technology is preferable to using CF. CF or P2, being solid state, have many advantages over HDD or optical technology. The Infinity camera can record simultaneously to CF and REV so redundancy for safety is built into the camera.

P2 has a data throughput (sustained I might add) of 640 MBps... compared to the REV bandwidth of 110Mbps... P2 is signifcantly smaller.

Why do you insist on comparing the data throughput rate of P2 with REV? Compare the data throughput of CF, which the Infinity camera uses, and P2. They are virtually identical in data throughput and performance because they are based on the same basic flash technology. The REV bandwidth is plenty fast for every format and resolution that the HVX offers. And why the size comparison between P2 and REV. P2 media and the CF media of the Infinity are basically the same physical size.

Now I cannot accurately comment on the price of the P2... but something tells it is from two things: a) the quality of the flash SD cards used in the system. b) branding. .

You don’t have to accurately comment on the price of P2 – I did it in my post at the beginning of this thread. If you’d do a simple Google search, or visit a reputable retailer, you will find the figures I quoted to be accurate. And what makes you think that the quality of the flash SD cards used in P2 justifies a threefold increase in price for them over equal capacity and capability San Disk CF cards? Do you have any data to back that up? Branding? I assume you mean that because Panasonic has offered an extensive branding campaign for P2 that that justifies a threefold increase in price over equal capacity and capability San Disk CF cards. So we’re paying three times as much for a brand….great.

This tech just isn't exciting.. it seems to me that Iomega is trying to save itself from obscurity... yawn.

Agreed, no way is HDD technology as exciting as CF technology, in utility and dependability. Is the concept of using the FireStore FS-4 as exciting and progressive as using P2? No. Likewise, is the concept of using REV as exciting as using CF? No. But REV is smaller than the FS-4 option, and it’s internal so that in mobile shooting you don’t risk destroying your HDD system as easily. Not to mention that the FS-4 is $1,800, compared to a $400 tab to buy a REV drive for NLE loading. I haven’t seen any literature or press release that said that Iomega begged Thomson GV to include the REV drives in the Infinity. In fact, they collaborated on the development of the REV Pro cartridge. The REV has been selling well for Iomega since April 2004.

as an aside.. what does it matter about cost per GB when you can only use this medium with one camera...?

Referring to CF or REV? The Infinity will be he first broadcast video camera to use either. Controlling all costs is basic to any niche of the media production industry, whether you do features, TV, indies, commercials, events, or whatever. A penny saved is a penny earned. Over a long career in producing television, video, web, and disk projects I remember many times hearing similar questions to yours about emerging or new use technology. Occasionally the questions proved to be prophetic, but usually the askers eventually ended up using the same technology they questioned at its inception.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[stephenvv]

Well, my graphic designers have used the REV drives extensively and they were impressed with the speed, cost, and reliability. What do Zip and Jaz drives have to do with REV and REV Pro outside of being previously manufactured by Iomega?

I did some checking and the Rev drives do not appear to have any major reliability problems yet so my experience must have be non-typical. So, I will concede the Rev drives have improved Iomega's manufacturing quality.

However, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Iomega software continues to be as awful as always according to reviews, but evidently the Zip and Jazz problems motivated them to at least improve Revs quality. However, the failure I experienced was nasty, destroying beyond use both the drive and the media and that was just sitting on my desk.

And Iomega tech support was truly unhelpful in the extreme. Thus, I and many others are not fans. Don't you think that's an issue for Thompson despite you enthusiasm?

Are you talking about the press release, the brochure PDF, or the fact sheet PDF?

All of them. No details on CCD, image quality, latitude, noise, image controls (see the HD100 or HVX200 brochures. The recording system and the geek stuff is the star, not the camera.

Between these two PDF’s GV gives a balanced overview of the new camcorder, recorder, and media used.

Balanced? It's a camera - we want 90% camera and 10% other stuff. If it sucks as a camera, who cares what it records to? To use your analogy of cars, its the engine that you are really buying. It can look all pretty and be comfortable, but if the engine sucks, the car sucks, other than something to show off in your driveway.

Look, I have absolutely no connection to Thomson Grass Valley or Iomega. I’ve simply taken the time on DVX User to suggest a recording medium alternative to Panasonic – a REV drive. I use Panasonic products extensively and will continue to do so – but I also use products from nearly every other manufacturer. A penny saved is a penny earned. The JPEG 2000 codec is equal to, if not superior to the DVCProHD codec. Add to that Compact Flash that is much cheaper then P2, and a non-tape option in using REV, and all of a sudden Panasonic users have a viable alternative camera.

But the question is why? With the HVX, you have P2, Firestore and direct to laptop. The CF issue in this unit is highly unproven and unknown, including data rates supported in what compression schemes.

The Rev Pro media costs are unknown as are solid tests for field recording vs. P2. By the time it is supposed ships, 16 GB P2 cards may be shipping.

It's very much a paper cam with paper medium at this point (unlike P2 and DVCProHD or even HDV), so smart buyers will be skeptical until the tires are kicked thoroughly.

 

[Spartacus]

my 2 cents:
P2 is the only real drawback for me considering the HVX. If you wanna be truly mobile and HDD/Firestore independent e.g. for a HD documentary, the price of your cam almost doubles just for storage!
This is a never before seen situation.
And any discussion going on wether P2 is better than REV is IMHO somehow weary: The HVX doesn`t use P2 because it is the best/smallest/cheapest/most reliable storagesystem out there, Pana uses the HVX to sell P2, period.
Yes, this is a one man and biased opinion, but looking at everything I know so far about the HVX and what I`ve seen at IBC, the HVX ain`t the big issue - P2 is.
Everyone using P2 on a professional level, won`t think twice about buying a sub 10K HD-handycam, for backup or additional footage, if he already owns P2 cards worth thousands of dollars.
For the indie low-budget filmmaker an onboard REV drive would probably be a more cost effective solution than P2 - but this is never going to happen (even a Firestore-like REV Drive is IMHO unlikely to appear).
I`ll just wait for the HD-Firestore and HD-Rack and probably never wonder about P2 again...
Ok, now start bashing.

 

[MovieSwede]

The great thing about P2 is its more secure against dropouts. If you shoot a movie it would be bad if a dropout destroys a real good scene.

With 2 8gb p2 cards you will be alright. If you shoot in 720p it will give over ½hours of footage.

 

[Spartacus]

A 2000$ HD Firestore should be reliable considering dropouts, otherwise few will buy...
After my 2 8gb P2 cards are full, i'll unload them again on a HDD, same risk of dropouts or crashes...
For and indie movie the risk of an dropout, that cannot be solved via editing/coverage becomes marginal considering P2 costs...

 

[stephenvv]

my 2 cents:
This is a never before seen situation.

Uh, have you ever shot film, paid for film stock, processing, work prints, mag stock etc.? At least P2 does not require a daylight loading bag :laugh:

I dropped out of film school and filmmaking in 1991 after dropping $8000 in film stock, processing, workprints, mag stock etc. for a 15 minutes 16mm short shot with a $5000 Arri. Due to my inexperience with the new Kodak stocks, I overexposed the dark, moody script and it looked like "Friends". It was going to cost several thousand more to reshoot or trying to fix in timing and I was out of credit card fund. Plus the script went no-where and my directorial skills with actors were not mature.

If I had P2 or firestore, all I do is "shift, delete" :laugh:

The HVX doesn`t use P2 because it is the best/smallest/cheapest/most reliable storagesystem out there, Pana uses the HVX to sell P2, period.

You really think Panasonic is going to get rich selling zero to a few P2 card with each HVX200 while they advertise how reusable and long-lasting they are?

P2 is not razor blades. And Sony does not get rich off DVCAM tapes - simply not enough cameras. Nor do they get rich of DV tape (surveys show the average home camcorder gets used way less than one tape a year)

It's the cameras....

 

[wigby]

dv workflow interruption

dv workflow interruption

You really think Panasonic is going to get rich selling zero to a few P2 card with each HVX200 while they advertise how reusable and long-lasting they are?

P2 is not razor blades. And Sony does not get rich off DVCAM tapes - simply not enough cameras. Nor do they get rich of DV tape (surveys show the average home camcorder gets used way less than one tape a year)

It's the cameras....

there are dv camcorders selling for under $200 now. do you really think there are any profit margins there? of course they're making more money on tapes and accessories than the cameras. now take a mid-range camera and you might be making $500 or $1000 pure profit so the tape argument gets weak.

but panasonic is trying to do something different here. they're offering 16:9 chips with decent glass and 1080p data stream. that's not cheap but the hvx-200 is fairly cheap. so you're getting a cheap camera but paying for it in workflow dollars. p2 forces users to use an assistant, additional hardware and/or many p2 cards. i wouldn't be surprised if panasonic only nets $1000 per/cam - not a great profit for the r&d that went into it but p2 will more than make up for it in the end.

 

[Spartacus]

Uh, have you ever shot film, paid for film stock, processing, work prints, mag stock etc.? At least P2 does not require a daylight loading bag :laugh:

Even if I had not, most of us probably owned a polaroid back in the days...
For video this strange camera price/storage price ratio is new.

I dropped out of film school and filmmaking in 1991 after dropping $8000 in film stock, processing, workprints, mag stock etc. for a 15 minutes 16mm short shot with a $5000 Arri. Due to my inexperience with the new Kodak stocks, I overexposed the dark, moody script and it looked like "Friends". It was going to cost several thousand more to reshoot or trying to fix in timing and I was out of credit card fund. Plus the script went no-where and my directorial skills with actors were not mature.

If I had P2 or firestore, all I do is "shift, delete" :laugh:

Video indeed made SOME things easier...

You really think Panasonic is going to get rich selling zero to a few P2 card with each HVX200 while they advertise how reusable and long-lasting they are?

Yes, considering the pricetag and the estimated production costs, probably they'll make more money selling cards than cams...

P2 is not razor blades. And Sony does not get rich off DVCAM tapes - simply not enough cameras. Nor do they get rich of DV tape (surveys show the average home camcorder gets used way less than one tape a year)

It's the cameras....

Let me see this surveys please, there wouldn't be machines and services for erasing and re-magneticing old tapes, if there wasn't enough demand for tapes or tapecost wouldn't be an issue...
All the nonpro camera owners i know have at least 30 tapes at home, not speaking of the pro users like production companies or TV stations i worked for/with...

 

[Spartacus]

i wouldn't be surprised if panasonic only nets $1000 per/cam - not a great profit for the r&d that went into it but p2 will more than make up for it in the end.

True, they will definetely make more than that with each 8gb P2 sold, if prices are still around 2200usd...

 

[stephenvv]

Even if I had not, most of us probably owned a polaroid back in the days...
For video this strange camera price/storage price ratio is new.

I'm talking 16mm (even Super8) motion picture costs. Film stock on many shoot often costs way more than the cameras. The HVX will deliver close to 16mm and unlike film, media is reusable.

Yes, considering the pricetag and the estimated production costs, probably they'll make more money selling cards than cams...

Unless the HVX200 buyer averages 5 or more P2 cards per camera, this is very unlikey, especially as P2 prices drop.

let me see this surveys please, there wouldn't be machines and services for erasing and re-magneticing old tapes, if there wasn't enough demand for tapes or tapecost wouldn't be an issue...
All the nonpro camera owners i know have at least 30 tapes at home, not speaking of the pro users like production companies or TV stations i worked for/with

I'm not sure if they are online, but they have done a number of times by TWICE magazine

Be aware that a camera owner may buy a camcorder and 5-10 tapes and then not buy another camera or tape for years. And many buy just 1-2 tapes and never buy another camera or wait a decade or more.

Forums like this are not good indicators of average use.

 

[Gibby]

I did some checking and the Rev drives do not appear to have any major reliability problems yet so my experience must have be non-typical. So, I will concede the Rev drives have improved Iomega's manufacturing quality.

However, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Iomega software continues to be as awful as always according to reviews, but evidently the Zip and Jazz problems motivated them to at least improve Revs quality. However, the failure I experienced was nasty, destroying beyond use both the drive and the media and that was just sitting on my desk.

And Iomega tech support was truly unhelpful in the extreme. Thus, I and many others are not fans. Don't you think that's an issue for Thompson despite you enthusiasm? .

We also had problems with Zip drives – but that was in 1998. It’s 2005 now and REV is a different product. My designers have found Iomega tech support to be good on the REV. If a company with a solid broadcast equipment reputation like Thomson Grass Valley felt the REV drives and cartridges would be plagued by tech problems, do you think they would have cut the deal with Iomega? GV doesn’t have a history of making those kinds of mistakes. Perhaps GV partnering with Iomega to develop the REV Pro was GV’s insurance policy against potential tech problems.

All of them. No details on CCD, image quality, latitude, noise, image controls (see the HD100 or HVX200 brochures. The recording system and the geek stuff is the star, not the camera. .

You expect a giant, detail-laden brochure as the initial print collateral from a tech product manufacturer? Did we get brochures like that from Panasonic when they first announced the HVX? No – and Panasonic still hasn’t finalized and published many of the final tech details about the HVX. The HVX and HD100 brochures weren’t even released by Panasonic and JVC until months after the initial announcements and press releases about the cameras. But Thomson GV at least published their preliminary brochure and fact sheet at the same time as their initial Infinity press release – something neither Panasonic nor JVC did for their cameras. I think we can expect follow-up press releases and brochures on their camera shortly.

Balanced? It's a camera - we want 90% camera and 10% other stuff. If it sucks as a camera, who cares what it records to? To use your analogy of cars, its the engine that you are really buying. It can look all pretty and be comfortable, but if the engine sucks, the car sucks, other than something to show off in your driveway.

Who’s “we”? Professional producers want to know all of the tech details of the potential workflow. Who cares what it records to? Anyone who owns a production company and is considering new equipment needs to care what it records to. A stitch in time saves nine. Just go buy a camera, then get the footage to post production and find out that you can’t edit it, and you need to redesign your edit bay - while a client, network, or studio is waiting for your project?! OK, using the car analogy again, you have a great engine, but no tires, no oil or gasoline, and no roads to drive on, what have you gained? ALL aspects of the car and its traveling environment need to dance in unison in order use the car effectively - or use it at all.

But the question is why? With the HVX, you have P2, Firestore and direct to laptop. The CF issue in this unit is highly unproven and unknown, including data rates supported in what compression schemes.

Why? P2, being based on flash technology like CF, and yet currently P2 costs three times more than CF per GB for storage, and budget-conscious producers shouldn’t be asking “Why”? The FireStore is $1,800, a REV drive $400, and budget conscious producers shouldn’t be asking “Why”? An external Firestore is at risk of destruction in mobile footage acquisition, but an internal REV drive is not – and producers shouldn’t consider this viable HDD alternative? CF was invented in 1988, and CF was first design by SanDisk in 1994, and has in broad use in multiple types of tech devices for nearly a decade – and its “unproven and unknown”? With CF being based on similar flash technology as P2, Thomson GV being a signatory to the Panasonic P2 Alliance, and Thomson GV designing P2 decks, why would you assume that the CF cards GV will use will have any less capability or data rate than P2? As for the compression schemes, JPEG 2000 has been around for a long time, as have DVCAM, DVCPro, DV, and MPEG2, the other compression schemes used by the Infinity camera. JPEG 2000 is a frame-independent, 4:2:2, 10-bit compression scheme that is equal to, if not superior to DVCProHD. Has Panasonic released all the data rates and final tech specs of the HVX? No. So why do you insist that Thomson GV do something immediately that Panasonic and every other camera manufacturer doesn’t do?

The Rev Pro media costs are unknown as are solid tests for field recording vs. P2. By the time it is supposed ships, 16 GB P2 cards may be shipping.

Thomson will undoubtedly position the REV Pro media at a higher price point than standard REV. Wouldn’t you, after putting R&D dollars into developing the media? Will it be significantly higher than standard REV? Probably not, but it’s a moot point until more info is released by Thomson. Why do field tests between P2 and REV? The level playing field is tests between P2 and CF. Since they’re both based on similar flash technology, what makes you think their performance will be significantly different? 16GB CF cards will undoubtedly ship at the same time as 16GB P2 cards, possibly even sooner, so I don’t get your point there.

[/QUOTE]It's very much a paper cam with paper medium at this point (unlike P2 and DVCProHD or even HDV), so smart buyers will be skeptical until the tires are kicked thoroughly.[/QUOTE]

And the HVX isn’t a paper cam as we speak? All anyone has seen is mockups and partially functional development models. CF a “paper medium” when it’s been used since 1994, is in wide use on multiple tech devices, and P2 is based on the same flash technology? The JPEG 2000 codec has been around as long as DVCProHD, and longer than HDV, is supported by Final Cut Pro, is the codec selected for digital theater projection, and yet it’s a “paper medium”? If “smart buyers will be skeptical until the tires are kicked thoroughly”, I’d ask this: have you ever kicked the tires of an HVX? No. Has anyone ever kicked the tires of a production model HVX? No. Then perhaps you should take you own advice and be skeptical until you kick the tires.

On paper I love the HVX and I’ll be buying one for my production company. But after 27 years of producing, directing. editing, and shooting over 700 national television programs for multiple networks, scores of commercials, and producing/designing scores of web sites and disk projects, I don’t feel the need to simply accept the tech devices that are handed to me by manufacturers. I question and criticize manufacturers thoroughly. The Infinity camera and its CF and REV media look promising, but I’ll reserve final judgment until the production models ship and have been thoroughly tested. I’m doing the same thing with the HVX.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[Spartacus]

I'm talking 16mm (even Super8) motion picture costs. Film stock on many shoot often costs way more than the cameras. The HVX will deliver close to 16mm and unlike film, media is reusable.

I don't get your point, any forthcoming HD cam probably will deliver close to 16mm picture quality, if not in camera then in post, and any storage medium to hit the market will be reusable - but you won`t put your 2200$ P2 card in the drawer for archiving as you prob. would with your REV drive, now thats an issue for me.

Unless the HVX200 buyer averages 5 or more P2 cards per camera, this is very unlikey, especially as P2 prices drop.

Well we simply don't know the costs Pana has, but I would really want plain numbers to get convinced that a 8gb P2 card at 2200$ doesn`t gain more profit than the HVX at 6000$
Yeah, P2 prices will drop, as will REV drives

I'm not sure if they are online, but they have done a number of times by TWICE magazine

I only found this abstract there(http://www.twice.com/article/CA241965.html?display=Search+Results&text=tape+sales) saying: "Tokyo— Increasing optical disc, videotape and tape-based data storage media sales boosted dollar volume in the recording media and systems segment at TDK 2.1 percent in the company's fiscal first quarter, to $254.5 million, up from $249.6 million in the year-ago first period. TDK reported that audio tape sales fell as overall demand softened, but videotape sales rose slightly, helped by d..."
It is from 2002 and probably focused on the consumer market, but the pro tape market should behave similar, even if they sell less units, the price of eg a DigiBeta tape will almost compensate for this

Be aware that a camera owner may buy a camcorder and 5-10 tapes and then not buy another camera or tape for years. And many buy just 1-2 tapes and never buy another camera or wait a decade or more.

Consumer products probably, in the pro world this definitely is not the case

I just don`t understand why people here defend something like P2 like the holy grail of video recording.
P2 is pro-gear aimed at customers who get paid for what they do with it, primarily ENG work I would suppose.
I thank Pana for what they did with the DVX for the SD world, I`ll probably thank them one day for giving us the HVX as an entry to the HD world, but for true indie work P2 just isn`t it IMHO.
But Pana gave us DVCproHD via firewire so I´ll shut my mouth and go sleeping now...

 

[stephenvv]

We also had problems with Zip drives – but that was in 1998. It’s 2005 now and REV is a different product. My designers have found Iomega tech support to be good on the REV.

It doesn't matter what your designers or you think - look at the many unhappy ex-Iomega customers above. That's an issue of perception that Thompson will have to deal with regardless of the actual current situation. Unless you and your designers plan on calling all potential Thompson camcorder buyers and giving them this cheerleading speech, it will be an issue out there as it is here.

You expect a giant, detail-laden brochure as the initial print collateral from a tech product manufacturer? Did we get brochures like that from Panasonic when they first announced the HVX?

Uh, yeah we did get and have brochures. See this forum for the early preview by Jared and Barry at NAB. Sure, we don't know CCD specs because they are still messing with them, but everything else camera wise has been revealed in it's glory including stunning brochures from Canon and Panasonic where the camera is clearly the star.

Who’s “we”?

Camera buyers. Or space monkeys, your choice :laugh:

Just go buy a camera, then get the footage to post production and find out that you can’t edit it, and you need to redesign your edit bay - while a client, network, or studio is waiting for your project?!

In case you're forgetting the white elephant in the room, the Rev drive is a proprietary device - it's not on every desktop. P2 and Firestore play on every modern PC on planet earth. So professional producers will have to think long and hard about shooting to Rev drives, especially when mobile and international.

Why? P2, being based on flash technology like CF, and yet currently P2 costs three times more than CF per GB for storage, and budget-conscious producers shouldn’t be asking “Why”?

P2 has 4 SD cards in a RAID - thus the price. the CF solution here is not detailed on exactly what data and frames in HD (720p and 1080p) it supports. Now if Thompson says they get 720p at 60fps and 1080p 24fps with 4-channel audio to a single CF card, we will all be very impressed.

The FireStore is $1,800, a REV drive $400, and budget conscious producers shouldn’t be asking “Why”?

The Firestore looks like it will be a 100 GB solution - so you are wrong about the pricing as Rev plus 1 35GB drive will be more than $400. And again, because a Firestore plugs into any computer with a firewire port ready to edit on the drive. Rev drives are not as fast as 7200rpm or even 5400 rpm firewire HDD drives, so that's another issue.

internal REV drive is not – and producers shouldn’t consider this viable HDD alternative?

Again, HDD plugs into any computer with the needed port - Rev requires a Rev drive. Sense a theme here? :shocked:

CF was invented in 1988, and CF was first design by SanDisk in 1994, and has in broad use in multiple types of tech devices for nearly a decade – and its “unproven and unknown”? With CF being based on similar flash technology as P2, Thomson GV being a signatory to the Panasonic P2 Alliance, and Thomson GV designing P2 decks, why would you assume that the CF cards GV will use will have any less capability or data rate than P2?

P2 is a 4 card SD RAID - CF is not.

And the HVX isn’t a paper cam as we speak?

Check any number of posts here for that.

Then perhaps you should take you own advice and be skeptical until you kick the tires.

I'm always skeptical of everything - especially corporate claims which include Panasonic, GV and Iomega.

On paper I love the HVX and I’ll be buying one for my production company. But after 27 years of producing, directing. editing, and shooting over 700 national television programs for multiple networks, scores of commercials, and producing/designing scores of web sites and disk projects, I don’t feel the need to simply accept the tech devices that are handed to me by manufacturers. I question and criticize manufacturers thoroughly. The Infinity camera and its CF and REV media look promising, but I’ll reserve final judgment until the production models ship and have been thoroughly tested. I’m doing the same thing with the HVX.

You sure don't sound like a skeptic reserving judgement about the Infinity and Rev. This is about the most impassioned plea for tech I've heard. GV should hire you tomorrow! :laugh:

 

[stephenvv]

I don't get your point, any forthcoming HD cam probably will deliver close to 16mm picture quality, if not in camera then in post, and any storage medium to hit the market will be reusable - but you won`t put your 2200$ P2 card in the drawer for archiving as you prob. would with your REV drive, now thats an issue for me.

One, if you are referring to HDV that a low-rate interframe compression stream, with 4:1:1 color sampling - that's why it goes to tape. P2 or fast Firestore is needed for DVCProHD - 4:2:2 and much lower intraframe compression. That's much closer to 16mm than HDV.

I just don`t understand why people here defend something like P2 like the holy grail of video recording.
P2 is pro-gear aimed at customers who get paid for what they do with it, primarily ENG work I would suppose.

It's very simple and I don't understand why people don't get it. The only HD format that records to low-cost tape is HDV. HDV has issues. To get a better HD there is DVCProHD (Varicam) or HDCAM and the tape decks cost $25K and up and camera costing as much as $100K or more.

Panasonic offers P2 in order to give us DVCProHD in 720p and 1080p with variable 720p frame rates for less than the price of a new car. There is no other solution available. Firestore had to engineer a new HDD to capture at those rates. How Thompson plans to capture high rate HD on a single CF is beyond me, so unless you want a HDV tape drive (which I don't), P2 is it.

That's revolutionary.

but for true indie work P2 just isn`t it IMHO.

I'm a true indie and I shoot with what I have. I shot an HD 720p stop motion film with an $100 digicam. Shoot 'em if you got 'em.

 

[Gibby]

It doesn't matter what your designers or you think - look at the many unhappy ex-Iomega customers above. That's an issue of perception that Thompson will have to deal with regardless of the actual current situation. Unless you and your designers plan on calling all potential Thompson camcorder buyers and giving them this cheerleading speech, it will be an issue out there as it is here. :

OK, let’s analyze this: 1) my team has current experience with the REV drives and has experienced good reliability and use from them. 2) The “many unhappy ex-Iomega customers above” only point to experience with different products (Zip, Jazz) that happen to be made by the same manufacturer (Iomega). 3) You are the only one outside of myself on this entire thread that claims to have firsthand experience with REV drives. 4) You initially slammed REV, based on your claimed experience with one REV drive, then reversed your position in a later post:

Your Post #18: “…albeit I used only one unit…”

Your Post #22: “I did some checking and REV drives do not appear to have any major reliability problems yet so my experience must have been non-typical. So, I will concede the REV drives have improved Iomega’s manufacturing quality.”

Your Post #22: “I did some checking and REV drives do not appear to have any major reliability problems yet so my experience must have been non-typical. So, I will concede the REV drives have improved Iomega’s manufacturing quality.”

Based on your own admission that your limited experience and singular problem with a REV drive is “non-typical”, and your statement that by your own “checking” REV drives don’t appear to have any major reliability problems, then it follows that the extensive, reliable experience my designers have experienced is “typical”.

No doubt Thomson and Iomega will deal with questions that arise. People should ask questions. Shipping of the cameras and reliable field use of the REV drives with them will be the bottom line. If the REV drives have problems, Thomson and Iomega will have to address them and fix them quickly, just as Panasonic will have to do if there are problems with the HVX, and JVC is having to do right now with the HD100.

What’s up with your “cheerleading” statement? On several posts in this thread I stated that I have no connection whatsoever with Thomson or Iomega. Professional associates of mine like Barry Green know that to be the case. They know that I use equipment from every manufacturer. I regularly use three cameras from Panasonic: Varicam, SDX900, DVX100A. I also stated several times in this thread that I plan to buy an HVX. I started this thread asking why Panasonic didn’t consider using a REV drive in the HVX, since it’s a solution now planned for use in a new camera. The only group I’m a “cheerleader” for is we consumers.

Uh, yeah we did get and have brochures. See this forum for the early preview by Jared and Barry at NAB. Sure, we don't know CCD specs because they are still messing with them, but everything else camera wise has been revealed in it's glory including stunning brochures from Canon and Panasonic where the camera is clearly the star.

The previews and NAB reports from Jared and Barry were excellent, but how does that equate to an official brochure from Panasonic? The fact is that Panasonic didn’t publish an in-depth brochure on the HVX at the time of their initial press release announcing the HVX, and even the brochure that was published last month does not have all of the technical info on the camera. So why are you trying to ask Thomson to do something Panasonic didn’t do? Yeah, I was at NAB every day, the same as Jared and Barry, thoroughly checking out P2 products, the HVX, the HD100, and scores of other new equipment. I spent hours and hours asking questions, watching demonstrations, and attending seminars. Were you there? If you were at NAB, did you take the time to do what I did? If you go back to April and check the HVX200 and HD100 threads on DVX User you’ll find numerous posts by me. I may not always agree with Jared and Barry, but I do respect that they take the time to thoroughly evaluate the info available and make their opinions known. I do the same thing.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[Gibby]

Camera buyers. Or space monkeys, your choice :laugh:

So you’re speaking for all camera buyers? How’s that work? DVX User is visited by a diverse group of media producers from various sectors of the production community: television, indie, event, features, commercials, business media, etc. Everyone is trying to match their equipment to their production needs – and no camera or technology will match everyone’s needs. Is a camera buyer for your indie niche going to want the same features as a camera buyer for long form television? Probably not. But how about the producers that work in multiple genres of production, and yet have limited budgets? They’re going to lobby for the most camera for their bucks, or end up constantly renting equipment to cover their projects.

In case you're forgetting the white elephant in the room, the Rev drive is a proprietary device - it's not on every desktop. P2 and Firestore play on every modern PC on planet earth. So professional producers will have to think long and hard about shooting to Rev drives, especially when mobile and international.

On this thread I suggested REV as an intermediate recording medium, not a long-term storage medium. The Infinity camera will simultaneously record to CF and REV for redundancy. After footage is loaded into your NLE, the CF and REV can be cleared. Long-term storage will be via BR-DVD or eventually a holographic device. P2 is also a “proprietary device” that required users to load software into their PC or Mac to use. REV will also play on every modern PC or Mac on the planet. If producers are mobile, and don’t have an external REV drive with them to interface with an NLE, the workflow is simple: record for redundancy simultaneously to CF and REV, use the CF, which every PC and Mac can use, for input into the NLE. If a producer is mobile and a REV drive isn’t available, simply use CF for the workflow. An alternative workflow would be to use the camera, with it’s integrated REV drive, as the source REV drive for feeding footage into the PC or Mac. Each REV disk includes simple software, quickly downloadable into a PC or Mac, that enables that PC or Mac to handle the REV files.

P2 has 4 SD cards in a RAID - thus the price. the CF solution here is not detailed on exactly what data and frames in HD (720p and 1080p) it supports. Now if Thompson says they get 720p at 60fps and 1080p 24fps with 4-channel audio to a single CF card, we will all be very impressed.

“P2 has 4 SD cards in a RAID - thus the price.” So we’re all supposed to accept a statement like that as justification for a cost of three times the cost per GB of storage using P2 as opposed to CF? When CF and P2 are based on very similar flash technology? I don’t think so. The preliminary Infinity data sheet PDF and brochure PDF both state that their CF product, named Pro Compact Flash does: “offer sufficient throughput for both SD and HD recording”. The HD recording is via JPEG 2000, at resolutions of 1080i50/60 and 720p50/60. With Thomson being a member of the Panasonic P2 Alliance, and manufacturing P2 decks, it should be a technical cakewalk for them to engineer their CF cards to have the same data and usage capability as P2, or maybe even higher. With flash technology being around since 1988, what makes you think that “4 SD cards in a RAID” is the highest and best use of flash technology? CF cards currently cost approximately only one third the price per GB of storage of P2 cards. If you’re buying an HVX, like I am, you should be cheering Thomson’s announcement and hoping that their CF does everything they’ve stated – because it will drive down Panasonic’s price for P2. Wouldn’t that benefit all of us HVX/P2 owners? It’s called competition, and competition affects product prices. Right now Panasonic has no competition in the solid state, flash-based memory space for professional footage acquisition and editing. With CF that’s about to change, and it will benefit the entire industry in many ways to have competition and alternatives.

The Firestore looks like it will be a 100 GB solution - so you are wrong about the pricing as Rev plus 1 35GB drive will be more than $400. And again, because a Firestore plugs into any computer with a firewire port ready to edit on the drive. Rev drives are not as fast as 7200rpm or even 5400 rpm firewire HDD drives, so that's another issue.

That 100 GB FireStore is projected for release in March 2006. The street price for a 80GB FireStore is $1,500. The street price for a 100GB FireStore will be around $1,800. So let’s review the cost per GB math:

100 GB FireStore: $1,800 divided by 100 GB storage = $18.00 per GB storage
REV: $400 (external drive) + $200 (4 pack of 35 GB REV cartridges) = $600. $600 divided by 140 GB storage = $4.28 per GB storage

And you claim I’m wrong on REV costs? These are exactly the REV cost figures I posted on this thread on my Post #4. The Infinity camera plugs into any computer via FireWire AND USB 2.0, and REV drives can be ordered with either FireWire or USB connections.

The spindle speed of REV is 4200rpm – plenty fast to handle the HD and SD data throughput of the resolutions the Infinity camera uses, or any of those that the HVX will use.

Again, HDD plugs into any computer with the needed port - Rev requires a Rev drive. Sense a theme here?

See my info above. The Infinity camera plugs directly into any computer via FireWire and USB 2.0. REV can be ordered that plug into any computer via FireWire, USB, and SCSI. So you pay $1,800 for a 100GB FireStore or $600 for a REV drive with four 35 GB cartridges – both can plug directly into your computer. “Sense a theme here?” Yeah, I do: $18 per GB of storage for an external storage HDD versus $4.28 per GB of storage for an internal HDD cartridge option, with an external feeder drive.

P2 is a 4 card SD RAID - CF is not.

I answered this above…

I'm always skeptical of everything - especially corporate claims which include Panasonic, GV and Iomega.

Who made any “corporate claims” about Panasonic, GV and Iomega? I started this thread to simply make observations on other equipment alternatives for the HVX I’m buying. I don’t automatically accept the tech claims of Panasonic or any other manufacturer, including GV, Sony, Ikegami, JVC, or anyone else. I filter their claims through a career of experience and tech knowledge and don’t hesitate to make suggestions to them. I use equipment from all manufacturers, and I question each one of them regularly. Can you make that same claim?

You sure don't sound like a skeptic reserving judgement about the Infinity and Rev. This is about the most impassioned plea for tech I've heard. GV should hire you tomorrow!

I don’t want to be hired by GV. I could care less if GV or Iomega like me or don’t like me. And I could care less if Panasonic likes me or doesn’t like me. I am a skeptic reserving judgment about Infinity and REV. I am a skeptic reserving judgment about P2 and the HVX. I am a skeptic reserving judgment about every tech device until it has proven itself. That said, I am also someone who easily connects the tech “dots” for what is and what could be. I’m not afraid to ask the hard questions to manufacturers, which I will also be doing to GV and Iomega as they release more info on the Infinity and its use of CF and REV. I’m not afraid to question Panasonic on their tech decisions. And I’m not afraid to post questions about Panasonic’s tech decisions on the HVX on this HVX board.

GV’s use of CF and REV in the Infinity, a camera that will undoubtedly compete with Panasonic’s high-end DVCPro50 and HVCProHD cameras, is something everyone should pay attention to – especially Panasonic. The GV releases on the Infinity note that there will be two versions of the camera, an “ENG version” and a “Pro version”. It’s feasible that the ENG version will be just under $20k, and the Pro version may be less then that ($15k?). Of course you need to add on a 2/3” HD lens, which can be found used for around $12k. An HVX, with a FireStore and multiple P2 cards will easily top $10k. For all Panasonic knows, GV could follow up the Infinity with an HVX-style camcorder that shoots the same formats and resolutions as the Infinity to CF and REV, costing less than $10k. Then we’d have a horse race.

Let me reiterate for the fifth time on this thread: I am a regular Panasonic equipment user and I plan to buy an HVX. Competition between Panasonic and GV or whoever, will drive down the cost of cameras, flash-based storage, and accessories. If this thread illustrates some new competition, nobody on this board should take offense at that. In fact, we should welcome the competition because it will drive prices down and save us money.

Obviously you have strong feelings for the HVX and P2. That’s fine. We’ve played this tennis match long enough. Neither of us is going to be convinced of the others position, so how about if we just leave it at that, and agree to disagree.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[stephenvv]

Gibby:

Although I read your points, as you pointed out, this drawn out tit for tat is useless. Let me distill it to two points:

(1) Why should Panasonic delay developement (by 6 to 12 months minimum) to re-engineer the HVX to use REV or CF drives given the fact the P2 recording is a proven technology and the REV/CF Thompson has not seen the light of day including the claimed supported data rates to CF plus Iomega is not the well-liked storage company?

(2) The Rev drive portion is not the same as P2. If you have a P2 media in your hand, you do not need a $400 drive to read that disk. I still don't see unequivicoal info on the Thompson site that all supported recording rates supported by Rev recording are supported recording to CF.

P2 Supports 80 MB/s while Pro CF seems around 12 MB/s (e.g Lexars 80X 4G http://store.lexar.com/index.cfm?category=21&subcategory=1&productid=CFB4GB-80-380&bhcp=1. So to me Rev nor CF are an equal replacement for P2 until evidence to the contrary is present.

 

[Gibby]

(1) Why should Panasonic delay developement (by 6 to 12 months minimum) to re-engineer the HVX to use REV or CF drives given the fact the P2 recording is a proven technology and the REV/CF Thompson has not seen the light of day including the claimed supported data rates to CF plus Iomega is not the well-liked storage company?

Through this whole thread my stated request to Panasonic to make an follow-up HVX model with a REV option and no tape drive. I never suggested that Panasonic delay production on the first version of the HVX. In fact, I hope they don’t because I will be using some HVX’s as the primary acquisition cameras for two of my new nationally airing television series, and a delay in release of the HVX would force me to use another camera for acquisition. More info on those TV series will be released via press release when the time is right.

(2) The Rev drive portion is not the same as P2. If you have a P2 media in your hand, you do not need a $400 drive to read that disk. I still don't see unequivicoal info on the Thompson site that all supported recording rates supported by Rev recording are supported recording to CF.

Comparing REV to P2 is comparing apples with oranges. Comparing Pro CF to P2 is comparing apples to apples. No $400 drive will be needed to read CF. CF readers are cheap and universal. Thomson does state that CF will support all the SD and HD recording of the Infinity. The JPEG 2000 codec that the Infinity will use is a robust intraframe, 4:2:2, 10 bit codec with properties very similar to DVCProHD. If Thomson says their Pro CF will support their HD recording, it follows that CF would support the data throughput rates of the JPEG 2000 codec.

(P2 Supports 80 MB/s while Pro CF seems around 12 MB/s (e.g Lexars 80X 4G http://store.lexar.com/index.cfm?category=21&subcategory=1&productid=CFB4GB-80-380&bhcp=1. So to me Rev nor CF are an equal replacement for P2 until evidence to the contrary is present.

P2 supports about 640 mb/s transfer, and is obviously fast enough to support any codec the HVX will shoot. Since P2 and Pro CF are based on nearly identical flash technology, and support of the JPEG 2000 high definition codec will require an equivalent data rate as P2 supports for DVCProHD, and Thomson has stated that Pro CF will support all HD and SD codecs the Infinity camera will shoot, it follows that Pro CF will have to have at least equal data throughput rates to P2. Thomson never stated that they would be using Lexar flash cards, so that is irrelevant. It’s more likely that Pro CF will be a new generation of CF card. Let’s just wait until more info is released on Pro CF, REV, and the Infinity before we jump to conclusions.

You’re a thinker, and that’s a good trait! Our dialog has been progressive and interesting. Keep in touch…

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[stephenvv]

You’re a thinker, and that’s a good trait!

I do get grief for it. One guy today picked at me on an After Effects list because he and others had posted advice for someone not to shoot 24p video because of "studdering" and other jerky motion that 24p film does not do. I tried to point out temporal motion, shutter speed and pulldown issues, but these two guys insisted that "something" unnamed caused 24fps video to look bad compared to 24fps film on interlaced displays. You would think as long as the CineAlta, Varicam, DVX have been out that people would understand the diferences but, ah well.

You clearly have a passion for accurate information and I very much respect that.

Through this whole thread my stated request to Panasonic to make an follow-up HVX model with a REV option and no tape drive.

You did put the "quick follow-up" at the end of your first post, but I still feel that would delay/distract HVX development on tech I'm still not convinced gets me anything more than P2 and Firestore, but once if Thompson delivers as indicated, and we all can kick the tires on it, then it should perhaps Panny could expand recording options and media for the HVX as they have with the Firestore.

However, increasing the weight with an integrated Rev drive would be an issue and though I hate tape, I like having the tape drive there as a emergency backup. But I could see some other drive tech replacing it down the line, perhaps Rev, though a 4 TB Holographic Versatile Disc would be better :laugh:

Comparing REV to P2 is comparing apples with oranges. Comparing Pro CF to P2 is comparing apples to apples.

If Pro CF delivers the speed that P2 does, you would be correct. But the Thompson material is pretty vague at this point, so we shall see. If Pro CF does not deliver all the same rates for much less than P2, than Rev to P2 is the relavent comparison.

Our dialog has been progressive and interesting. Keep in touch…

Will do - I don't have tons of time to spend of forums, but I will be here at dvinfo.net keeping up with HD cams as I will make the switch to HD at some point, especially as I have a HD short I'm working on posting now (mostly animation) and full length doc I plan to shoot next year for theaterical release and 1080p would be much nicer than DVX 24p for sure.