walk and talk scenes how to accomplish

K

kevin baggott

Well-known member
Hey,
Thanks for taking a look. I'm an indy filmmaker - making no budget features.
One shot i do a lot is 2 actors walking and talking walking down a block.
I've purchased the Zhiyun-Tech CRANE 3 a year back trying to get that shot. Didn't work out so good.
Walking backwards, trying to compose, not much luck.
Was about to pull the trigger on the steadimate-s and ronin-s - but again i would have to be walking backwards. Hadn't seen any footage online of peeps doing a don juan with this set up either.
Was thinking recently of maybe an electric skateboard, etc.
The best i could do was the osmo pocket and having the actor hold it with a 4th axis stabilizer. But the codec is not great and doesn't cut nicely with my bmp4k.
Hopefully Dji makes a osmo pocket 2 soon?
Anyway - was curious if folks had any suggestions how i might be able to get this shot for say a a couple of grand on new equipment.

If you look at the below trailer at 1:11 into it - that was shot with the osmo pocket and the actor holding a selfie stick. I thought it worked pretty good - liked how it forced the actors together.

https://vimeo.com/397998432
 
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I have a 7" monitor rigged to my Ronin-S handle. I can spin the handle/monitor so that the camera is pointed backwards and I'm walking forwards/away from the actors. I'm sure you can do it on the crane as well
 
In an ideal world, you'll have second person 'spotting' for you - ie walking forwards guiding you with their hand on your back. It's their job to make sure you don't trip or fall. You also need to walk the shot without the camera to get a feel for where you will be and spot any potential hazards.
 
Yeah. Don’t know Kevin but really dig his filmmaking style. I wish more people will see his films.
 
Hey ahalpert,
I have a good ikan 5 inch monitor.
OK - so the camera is pointed backwards and yer walking forwards. Is the lens peeking over yer shoulder at the actors? is the camera more at chest level to the side of you? I'm trying to visualize.
Hey Liam - yes would def have someone spotting if walking backwards. Trying to figure out how to walk forward - solo - would be nice.
Thanks guys.
 
Ha, OK, well...I spent a few decades walking backwards for a living, so let's see if I can offer any perspective on this! (also reminded of the podcast series about Steadicam operators entitled "Walking Backwards"!)

First of all I love that Kevin used the term Don Juan and no-one questioned it. Hilarious that has gone that far mainstream. It was born at the first Steadicam master's workshop in the late 80's when they decided they needed terms for walking-backwards-shooting backward vs walking-foward-shooting-forward. What emerged from that admittedly drunken night was Missionary and Don Juan, but no-one really expected those terms would spread as far as they have.

Virtually every Steadicam operator prefers to shoot walk and talks in Missionary, because you are facing the actors, they are right in your peripheral vision and it's easier to sense if they change up speed or start to separate so you can compensate. Plus, it's simply easier to be facing the same direction as the camera is pointing. I myself would resort to Don Juan when absolutely needed, such as at high speed or ascending/descending stairs (god forbid, both) but I know many operators who will find a way to do all of it in Missionary somehow and literally never do Don Juan.

Of course, having a spotter when walking backwards is important for safety reasons so if you absolutely cannot have one, that may force you into DJ. As ahalpert mentions, you can rig the monitor so that you don't have to crane your neck around (as long as the shot doesn't continue to where you'd have to come out of DJ). I did this with my big rig a few times when I had to run flat out or go fast down stairs and it would have been dangerous to look at a conventionally-mounted monitor. The caveat with this is that you have to mentally be prepared to reverse the direction of tilt--what was down is now up, and vice versa, whereas pan stays the same. Here's a reverse mounted monitor setup I did way back:

AMXactionshot.jpg
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Kevin, you were asking about camera height, whether chest or shoulder height. One of the things that has truly saddened me about the proliferation of gimbals and their often hideous ergonomics is that much of the time I've seen people use them, they tend to operate at a height based on comfort vs what is best for the shot itself. Lens height is just as important a consideration as pan and tilt when composing. The relationship of talent to background, where the horizon line falls, how much sky you want to show, all of these things are how one should determine lens height. And as one's distance to talent changes, booming up or down is a great way to regulate headroom quickly and with more subtlety than trimming via tilt (especially with a gimbal), so that is also a factor. Typically with a wide angle two shot a somewhat lower lens height is better to show more scenery and less ground and avoid keystoning, but that same height may result in an unflattering angle on a closeup, so if you end up closing in one character you need to boom throughout that transition.
 
The camera is peeking over my shoulder.

Honestly, most of the time I just walk backwards. But if it's tricky - like a narrow passageway over uneven ground like I'm remembering right now - I will swing the camera around and shoot over my shoulder.

It's surprisingly easy to shoot past your shoulder without getting yourself in the shot. Framing feels a little funky doing it backwards without seeing the subject, but doable.

I think that if you had the camera out to the side of you it would yield more flexibility and probably more ease. You should be able to accomplish that with a Steadimate-s I believe (so that you're not forced to hold the rig way out for an extended period of time, though you could do that as well).

Just found this article on over-the-shoulder shooting in this style: https://nofilmschool.com/2015/08/mounting-dji-ronin-gimbal-steadicam-reverse-shooting

But yeah come to think of it, if I were doing this a lot and for extended periods of time, I would definitely consider getting a Steadimate-S. It's already on my radar if I needed to do extended walk and talks with my Ronin-S. And doing them while shooting backwards - I think it's the ticket. Rig the monitor wherever is easiest to see it

If it doesn't work with the crane, something similar will - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...k_steadimate_system_with_a_15.html?ap=y&smp=y
 
Hey Charles,
Thanks so much for taking the time to explain all of that. It was really helpful. Again - thanks so much.

Ahalpert
Thanks for explaining that - and for the links. Most helpful as well.

Thanks gents - stay safe and peace - Kevin
 
Could a Mini scooter with small training wheel , monopod, monitor in front, gimbal work? Pushing it motor off.
 
Regarding the suggestions of using a wheeled platform (rickshaw, scooter etc):

It's nice to save one's energy especially for long takes and/or multiple takes. The main drawback vs one's feet is the ability to seamlessly regulate the distance between you and the talent. Humans have a tendency not to move like machines, especially when acting, so it's nice to be able to "breathe" with them. Asking them to pace themselves to camera may or may not work. A lot depends on one's framing--the wider you go, the less critical all of this is. The more you fill the frame with talent, the more risky it becomes if they start to separate or they alter the pace and you can't immediately compensate. Probably the best version of this is something you can operate yourself that is quite responsive once you get the hang of it, like a handsfree Segway or hoverboard.

This is pretty nuanced stuff. If you aren't super picky about the results, my notes may all fall into the realm of esoterica. But good stuff to keep in mind, maybe?
 
As a newb/poor opertor I just find being seated with the camera facing the right way just takes 90% of the stress away, even if more nuance is possible on foot. I can do a reliable (if not super high end) service to a director.

My rickshaw was one of my simpler and better DIYs and it rents out :)

http://framedogs.com/camera-rickshaw/
 
ANother elment in shooting backwards is that some gimbals ca be remote operated, to the camera holder just get the camera 80% in the right direction while the remote op finesses the shot.
 
CharlesPapert said:
One of the things that has truly saddened me about the proliferation of gimbals and their often hideous ergonomics is that much of the time I've seen people use them, they tend to operate at a height based on comfort vs what is best for the shot itself.
Click to expand...

That's only true if you're a bum. With a little effort, you can get a greater range of height placements than a steadicam.

Screenshot 2020-07-05 at 8.44.21 AM.jpg
Screenshot 2020-07-05 at 8.44.53 AM.jpg

But yes, in the hands of a skilled operator, you have much more control and nuance on a steadicam and need not fight the robot-adjustments look.
 
Since we are talking covering subjects with gimbals walking and talking or in my case, running, here's my experience. I don't have any pictures of our setup but we shot one of our documentary subjects last year as she trained for the Keys 100 Ultra Marathon. She did most of her training on the Manhattan Beach boardwalk, which is almost always super crowded.
My producing partner happens to have a high-end tandem bike worth about $25k. It's German, beautifully made and one of it's key features is that the rear pedals don't need to do anything the front pedals are doing the pedaling, the rear pedals can coast
while the front pedals are providing the energy to move. We did two shoots with our subject, me on the back seat of the bike, tracking her with the Zhiyun Crane 2 with the Fujifilm X-T3 and a Shinobi Monitor so I could see what I was doing.

We did shots behind her and parallel with her as you would expect but when we pulled ahead of her to get her jogging toward us, I did sort of a revised Don Juan kind of move with the camera facing back and me looking on the Shinobi at a 45 degree angle to
see what I was shooting. In this case, the gimbal was a lifesaver and enabled us to capture some remarkable footage of an athlete training. It was perfect for safety as we had a "driver" and I could be on the back just concentrating on the shot, focus, exposure
and composition.
 
Morgan - that is sweet - :)
I see that it's a DIY. Dont think they make anything like that in the states - hmmm - maybe the military does - for moving bombs around.
I applaud you on making it though. Great job!
 
Rickshaws are indeed available, but they are one of those things that exists in the higher-end industry that takes a while to be "discovered" by the indie world (a classic example is the slider, we had those for decades before they became a small-camera craze, with all of the companies subsequently copying each other's bad initial designs instead of working off the tried-and-true ones).

Sam is a master tinkerer and has built many great homemade versions of industry products with his own unique style! Sam, I don't think I'd seen your rickshaw before. The main difference I see with that design versus one's I've used is the front end--I'm used to a double arm system with the driver able to get in the middle which I think might provide better control for fast stuff? Although we sometimes use two drivers for the really fast running shots working off an extended crossbar.

I rode many a rickshaw in my operating days, as well as hardmounts on traditional and western dollies, ATV's, Griptrix and the like. It is indeed always easier to ride than walk. High speed work especially. I did a certain percentage of walk-and-talks hardmounted, and since I moved up have suggested that to other operators. The concern is that you are then entirely reliant on the dolly grip/driver to maintain the desired distance and unless they are very good and/or have a monitor to keep an eye on framing, you are likely to be frustrated at some point in the shot. Even a great driver can rarely react as quickly since they have a far greater mass to manage than a single operator on foot.

I do agree with Sam that the gimbals present a much improved scenario where a second operator can manage the subtleties of pan and tilt remotely, which is what Deakins did with his operator for the trench work in 1917.
 
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