Voice over vs. location audio

B

bdale

New member
I do event videos, short promotional videos and short documentaries and I have the audio gear to support that type of work.

My audio kit includes a Marantz PMD661, a Zoom H5, a Sony PCM-m10, a MixPreD and my mics include an NTG-3, an AT4054b, an MKE600 and an MD 46.

I'm interested in adding more voice over to some of my work but since that aspect is new to me I'm not sure if I should use my existing gear or get more traditional voice over equipment.

If I use the gear I have my starting point would be the NTG-3 and the Marantz PMD661, since the NTG-3 is an all around high quality mic and the Marantz has good pre-amps.

I'll be recording in a home office that isn't sound treated so I wasn't sure if I would be better off getting a dynamic mic that captures less background noise and that's designed for voice over. I've also looked at the AT2020 condenser since it's a good value and used by both newbies and professionals for voice over. I've seen a couple of recommendations for the Shure Beta 87A. It's a condenser mic with great sound but because of it's design it's good at filtering out background noise in an untreated space.

I'm also considering getting a MixPre3 for the high end pre-amps, computer interface, recorder/mixer features, etc.

I have quality tools for location work but voice over has different requirements so I'm looking for feedback and trying to decide whether I'm better off starting with tools that are optimized for voice overs.
 
Welcome to DVXUser!

Did you mean 4053b (hypercadioid)? The 4054 (there was no "b") is a now-discontinued handheld dynamic cardioid aimed at vocal musicians.

You've probably got what you need to get started, though I highly recommend getting one of the new MixPre units. It could replace your other recorders (though hang onto the Sony because a handheld recorder is always handy to have for grabbing SFX and sound beds on the run). The MixPre-6 isn't too much more than the 3, and offers a few more enhanced features. Sell the Marantz and the H5 to offset the cost.

Play with the different mics you have and see what works best for you, but any of the three could be a suitable starting place. What matters most are proximity, placement, and the room. Speak across the mic at about a 45º angle to avoid plosives, keep within 6" of the mic (slightly closer if you use a dynamic), and try to minimize reflections in the room.

Rather than a home office, do you have a walk-in closet or at least a bedroom closet that is big enough to stand inside? That's pretty much a ready-made VO booth, since all the hanging clothes will provide lots of absorption for any potential reflections. No, it isn't a professionally-treated VO booth or whisper room, but it's a remarkably useful space if it's all you have.
 
Alex H. said:
Welcome to DVXUser!

Did you mean 4053b (hypercadioid)? The 4054 (there was no "b") is a now-discontinued handheld dynamic cardioid aimed at vocal musicians.

You've probably got what you need to get started, though I highly recommend getting one of the new MixPre units. It could replace your other recorders (though hang onto the Sony because a handheld recorder is always handy to have for grabbing SFX and sound beds on the run). The MixPre-6 isn't too much more than the 3, and offers a few more enhanced features. Sell the Marantz and the H5 to offset the cost.

Play with the different mics you have and see what works best for you, but any of the three could be a suitable starting place. What matters most are proximity, placement, and the room. Speak across the mic at about a 45º angle to avoid plosives, keep within 6" of the mic (slightly closer if you use a dynamic), and try to minimize reflections in the room.

Rather than a home office, do you have a walk-in closet or at least a bedroom closet that is big enough to stand inside? That's pretty much a ready-made VO booth, since all the hanging clothes will provide lots of absorption for any potential reflections. No, it isn't a professionally-treated VO booth or whisper room, but it's a remarkably useful space if it's all you have.
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Thanks Alex. Yes, 4054b was a typo. Meant to type 4053b.

The 4053b has been my most used mic, since I use it for interviews inside. I’ve been happy with that mic but I haven't found any examples of people recommending it for voice over. I'm not sure why? I've found a few professionals who use the NTG-3 for voice overs, so for my first attempts I decided to use that mic. I thought the results sounded okay, but I've never used any other mic for voice over, so I don't have anything to compare it to.

The main noise in my primary office would be the computers and hard drives. Not terrible, but still likely to be audible through head phones with a condenser mic. I do have a room we use as a walk in closet. I'd have to take my gear down and setup any time I wanted to record something. I'll definitely try the walk in closet as needed, though I wouldn't mind having an option that's "good enough" in my primary space.

At the moment I have the budget for either a high end mic or the MixPre3 (or MixPre6) but not both. I could add more later. I did notice some mics that were inexpensive but still recommend by some, such as the AT2020, ATR2100, SM57 or SM58, etc. With those cheaper mics I could get the MixPre3 and the ATR2100, for example, and still be within my current budget.

My understanding is the ATR2100 has surprisingly good sound quality for it’s price, and because it’s a dynamic mic it’s less sensitive to background noise, thus a good choice for an untreated space?

I’m not sure if a more “purpose built” but inexpensive mic like the ATR2100 would serve me better than a higher end mic like the NTG-3, at least in this situation.

In the online samples I’ve heard I liked the sound of the Audio-Technica BP40, but that mic has received mixed reviews and doesn’t seem very popular. I thought it sounded very “natural.” A lot of gear choices have a subjective element, and that seems particularly true with voice over mics.

I’m all for experimenting and making do with what I have. But in this area I “don’t know what I don’t know.” So I want to at least be in the ballpark with the right tools before I start the learning curve.
 
bdale said:
A lot of gear choices have a subjective element, and that seems particularly true with voice over mics.
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In many ways, yes.

You won't see folks recommend the 4053b for voice over because a small-diaphragm hypercardioid condenser isn't the first choice if you're starting from scratch. That doesn't mean it cannot be used, just that there are better choices if you're buying a VO-specific mic. Again, it really comes down to trying it out and seeing what you (and your clients) think of the results.

Dynamic mics are better when you cannot treat the room or find a better space, so if you absolutely have to keep it in your office then something like the SM7B, RØDE Procaster, Audio Technica BP40, or ElectroVoice RE320 or RE20 will help.

Spend your money on the MixPre-6. Sell the Marantz and the Zoom and use that to buy another mic if you feel you need one, after experimenting with the ones you have.

Yeah, you have to take gear with you if you use a walk-in or stand-in closet, but a MixPre-6, mic, and mic stand are easily portable that way. There's little setup time needed.

I've also built a makeshift VO booth in the field to record voice in terrible conditions (very reflective rooms in a house and a downtown condo). Two C-stands with boom arms, three furni pads (aka soound blankets), and some pony clamps to hold the blankets onto the C-stand arms. For added isolation, back the mic in a Reflexion filter. You won't eliminate hard drives humming in the room, but this temporary booth will knock out reflections.
 
Alex H. said:
Dynamic mics are better when you cannot treat the room or find a better space, so if you absolutely have to keep it in your office then something like the SM7B, RØDE Procaster, Audio Technica BP40, or ElectroVoice RE320 or RE20 will help.

Spend your money on the MixPre-6. Sell the Marantz and the Zoom and use that to buy another mic if you feel you need one, after experimenting with the ones you have.
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It's sounds like starting with the MixPre6 makes sense as a starting point. I can start experimenting with the gear I have, though it would be nice to have at least one "purpose built" VO mic in the mix as a point of reference.

For an untreated room I get the impression you'd recommend trying a higher end dynamic such as the SM7B, RØDE Procaster, Audio Technica BP40, or ElectroVoice RE320 or RE20 over trying an inexpensive dynamic such as the ATR2100, SM57 or SM58. In that case, I'd probably wait and get one of those higher end dynamics as the budget allows.

I've tried a few blind tests and it seems like I often pick Audio-Technica VO mics. I'm sure each mic is different, even from Audio-Technica, but for VO it seems like the ATs have what I would call a "natural" or "plain" sound, which appeals to me. To my ears they sound "good but realistic" (for lack of a better term.) In one blind test I picked the AT4050 as my favorite mic, but it's a condenser so I decided to check out the BP40 samples as a dynamic option, and that sounded good to me as well. Still not sure why the BP40 is not more popular. B&H doesn't even have it in stock. Maybe it's going to be replaced?
 
Dynamics are more forgiving in untreated rooms, but still won't solve every issue. It's best to treat the space, or use a better space. That brings us back to the closet, which is helpful no matter which mic you use.

If you want to get serious about it, treat a space (or use the closet), and step up to a large-diaphragm condenser, the RØDE NT-1A is a great option for not a lot of money. The furni-pad VO booth will help a lot with LDC mics.

The BP40 is farily new to an already-saturated market. Probably why you don't see or hear much about it. For what it's worth, Sweetwater has it in stock.

BSW has it in stock as well, and they have a comparison video that puts it up against the SM7B and the RE20:

 
If it were me, I would use the gear you already have, and take the budget you would have spent on new VO gear and put it toward either room treatment or some voice booth solution. I know it's not as flashy as new gear. But Owens Corning 703 covered with acousticlly transparent fireproof material will go a lot farther in getting you the sound you desire than a new mic will.

All the best!

Dave
 
The typical go-to V/O mic in most studios is a large diaphragm condenser like the Neumann U-87 or AKG C414, ect., ect. Lots of folks (especially in radio) use a large diaphragm dynamic (for instance: Shure SM7, EV RE20/27 and Sennheiser MKH421. However there are a few (big name/big money V/O artists) who swear by the Sennheiser 416 shotgun. So the NTG3 may be a contender.
A small diaphragm condenser like the AT 4053 is not typically used for V/Os, but there are no rules or microphone police, so try it anyway. Talent is the main ingredient though, and w/o that, no mic is going to sound good.
 
Thanks for the feedback Alex and David. Very helpful in planning my next steps.

It sounds like room treatment should be an important element. If I get that figured out I would also have more options if I wanted to add a VO mic at some point. I could include large diaphragm condenser microphones as options if I don't have as much room noise to worry about. I liked the AT4050 condenser in the VO samples I've heard. Maybe AT has a similar model that's less expensive? Either way the price wasn't too outrageous ($699). Or maybe I won't need anything besides what I have if I improve the room enough?

Is it worth experimenting with all 4 mics I currently have (NTG-3, an AT4053b, an MKE600 and an MD 46) for VO? or does it make sense to focus on the one that seems most recommend for VO (the NTG-3)?

I've tried all 4 and I wasn't thrilled with my results with any, but I think that had more to do with my initial technique, room quality, etc. which should improve with some experience and effort.
 
Rick R said:
The typical go-to V/O mic in most studios is a large diaphragm condenser like the Neumann U-87 or AKG C414, ect., ect. Lots of folks (especially in radio) use a large diaphragm dynamic (for instance: Shure SM7, EV RE20/27 and Sennheiser MKH421. However there are a few (big name/big money V/O artists) who swear by the Sennheiser 416 shotgun. So the NTG3 may be a contender.
A small diaphragm condenser like the AT 4053 is not typically used for V/Os, but there are no rules or microphone police, so try it anyway. Talent is the main ingredient though, and w/o that, no mic is going to sound good.
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Since I don't have much experience with VO I don't have a great vocabulary for the tools, but I don't think I'm interested in the "radio sound." I've listened to some RE20 examples, and while I think they sound good, they seem too sports or talk radio flavored. I'm more interested in a "rich but natural sound.” I'd envision a BBC documentary type sound. That was how the AT4050 sounded to me, in the examples I've heard - rich but natural.

Being new to VO I'm assuming I'll be light on talent, to begin with, but I'm planning to put in the effort to improve.

I don't want to make VO a major focus, but I'd like to have the ability to do more of my own VO work for smaller projects.
 
bdale said:
I'm interested in adding more voice over to some of my work but since that aspect is new to me I'm not sure if I should use my existing gear or get more traditional voice over equipment.
Click to expand...

VO work isn't really about the equipment. It's about a recording with a completely black background. This is required so that post can add whatever audio they need underneath the VO, and that includes using EQ and artificial reverb to conform your VO to the space shown on the video. If you capture any room sound at all on your VO, this becomes considerably more difficult for post to accomplish.

bdale said:
I'll be recording in a home office that isn't sound treated so I wasn't sure if I would be better off getting a dynamic mic that captures less background noise and that's designed for voice over.
Click to expand...

You'd be better off treating the heck out of your room. And you aren't treating it to make it sound nice, you're treating it to make silent and dead (no room sound at all). For VO just about any background audio at all is noise, including whatever reflections you get from floors, walls, and ceiling (aka reverb). This is why this type of work is usually done in specially designed and built VO booths.

If you'll treat the space, you'll find that most of the mics in your collection will work just fine. If you don't treat the space, even the most expensive mics won't work well.

So... first thing you do is treat the space. I don't know if I said that before.... :cheesy:
 
Bruce Watson said:
If you'll treat the space, you'll find that most of the mics in your collection will work just fine. If you don't treat the space, even the most expensive mics won't work well.

So... first thing you do is treat the space. I don't know if I said that before.... :cheesy:
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Thanks Bruce, I had room quality on my list of things to consider, but your explanation helps clarify why it should be a primary focus - and the foundation for the other elements.

As somebody had mentioned earlier, it can be more fun buying new gear but it sounds like I need to work on some basics first.
 
Bdale

I have a kit that is oriented much like yours and intended for similar uses. Some time back, I was in a similar place, wanting an improved VO capability. Like you, I have the NTG3 and 4053b, running into SD preamps. And IMHO, either mic can work for you. Like others have suggested, room treatment is pretty important. Before I went with new mics, I did some room treatment, purchasing a box of sound foam panels and glued them to foam core to create portable panels. I can either velcro them to the walls or hang them from stands. This ended up being a good move as they are field capable and better than, but more expensive than furniture pads. I then tried numerous mics to try and find the mojo I wanted. Though for my voice, either the 4053b or NTG3 were both pretty good. Though I haven't used a 416, it is used by many and the NTG3 should give the same type of results. Still I wanted some improvement and sought a purchase that would be more than a one trick pony. This can be a frustrating and expensive process to find a mic that suites your voice and the produces sound you want. I bought and sold several good mics that just didn't give me the sound I wanted or were better than what I had. I did eventually purchased a 4050 which was a significant improvement (for my voice). I haven't found a dynamic mic that gave me the fuller sound I prefer. Like yourself, AT mics have always satisfied me, though they do make some really cheap stuff I wouldn't bother with. The 4050 has multiple patterns which you may not need or want to pay for. I did since it would double for music work. You might also consider a 4040 which is a similar LDC, but cardioid only, and I suspect (within that pattern) would sound very similar for around $300. I would recommend buying from a reputable dealer as there are more and more knock-offs on eBay and the like. Keep track of Sweetwater and Musicians Friend as every now and then, they will have a screemin' deal on AT mics. There are many less expensive LDCs out there by companies like CAD or as you mentioned the AT2020 which might do just fine for a lot less $$. You might hang around gearslutz and read the reviews on that very active board.

Regards,
Grant

Edit: My bad, the OP doesn't have SD gear at present. I have seen Mix-Pre D (the digital version) models going for around $300 on eBay.
 
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Bruce Watson said:
VO work isn't really about the equipment. It's about a recording with a completely black background. This is required so that post can add whatever audio they need underneath the VO, and that includes using EQ and artificial reverb to conform your VO to the space shown on the video. If you capture any room sound at all on your VO, this becomes considerably more difficult for post to accomplish.

You'd be better off treating the heck out of your room. And you aren't treating it to make it sound nice, you're treating it to make silent and dead (no room sound at all). For VO just about any background audio at all is noise, including whatever reflections you get from floors, walls, and ceiling (aka reverb). This is why this type of work is usually done in specially designed and built VO booths.
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I'm curious, bdale: do you have audio post folks? Are you sending your projects out for sound editing, sweetening, and mixing? Or are you doing everything in-house, as a one-man-band in post?

The thing about absolute silence is that you're not going to get it by treating your room on a budget. The kind of thing that Bruce is talking about requires building an isolation room: floating floors, resilient channel inside a multi-layered wall, double-paned windows made especially for recording, heavy doors that seal... this is all very complicated and very expensive.

It also depends on what kind of VO work you're doing, and what your threshold of tolerance is for slight imperfections. For quite a bit of corporate stuff, local advertising, and straight-to-Internet stuff, effective VO can be recorded without a whisper room/isolation booth.

It would be helpful to treat your room a bit with some acoustic foam (such as Auralex), knock some of the floor down with an area rug, and maybe throw some diffusion tiles up to spot treat the ceiling. This will help your VO recording, and it will also help with your audio mixing for your videos.

If you start getting into really high-end stuff and there's a need for absolute isolation, then you'll need to start budgeting for a booth.

Or drop a grand on this ridiculous-looking thing. (Not really...)

Bruce Watson said:
If you'll treat the space, you'll find that most of the mics in your collection will work just fine. If you don't treat the space, even the most expensive mics won't work well.
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Absolutely.
 
Alex H. said:
The thing about absolute silence is that you're not going to get it by treating your room on a budget. The kind of thing that Bruce is talking about requires building an isolation room: floating floors, resilient channel inside a multi-layered wall, double-paned windows made especially for recording, heavy doors that seal... this is all very complicated and very expensive.
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That reminds me of the "dead room" I visited on a tour of Bell Labs way back when. Acoustic wedges about 3 feet thick on the floor, ceiling and walls (including the door). We walked on a wire mesh. Absolutely silent. You could hold a sea shell up to your ear and not hear a thing.
 
Alex H. said:
I'm curious, bdale: do you have audio post folks? Are you sending your projects out for sound editing, sweetening, and mixing? Or are you doing everything in-house, as a one-man-band in post?

The thing about absolute silence is that you're not going to get it by treating your room on a budget. The kind of thing that Bruce is talking about requires building an isolation room: floating floors, resilient channel inside a multi-layered wall, double-paned windows made especially for recording, heavy doors that seal... this is all very complicated and very expensive.

It also depends on what kind of VO work you're doing, and what your threshold of tolerance is for slight imperfections. For quite a bit of corporate stuff, local advertising, and straight-to-Internet stuff, effective VO can be recorded without a whisper room/isolation booth.
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I do some bigger projects where I hire VO and audio production. In those cases I'm assuming they deal with the standards that Bruce references. I rely on them for the finished audio.


A lot of what I do is corporate, local promotion and straight-to-Internet stuff and in most of those cases the client is fine with "good enough" audio. In those cases I'm doing the audio production myself, even though I generally know more about the video side. I still like to aim for as high of standards as I can. I'm also interested in doing more personal project documentary work, and that's where I'd start experimenting with doing my own VO.
 
bdale said:
It's sounds like starting with the MixPre6 makes sense as a starting point. I can start experimenting with the gear I have, though it would be nice to have at least one "purpose built" VO mic in the mix as a point of reference.
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I'd recommend the Zoom F4 instead, especially after the recent price drop to US$550 it is a no brainer buy for the location sound recordist.

I wrote up a good little summary of all the low priced recorder options:

http://ironfilm.co.nz/which-sound-r...various-indie-priced-sound-recorders-in-2017/

But anyway, you don't need to change your recorders for simple voice over work.

As both the MixPre6 and Zoom F4 are targeted at the location sound recordist (for which they do a phenomenally better job at, than an H5, which is not designed for that purpose).

Anyway, what kind of budget are you thinking of for your microphones?

Shure SM7B is quite a classic microphone you might like to go for (or a Neumann U87 for a real classic you could blow your budget over....), but if talent are not pros who are used to being that ultra close to a microphone then a Neumann TLM 103 is a good choice (or the cheaper Neumann TLM 102).

However, if you're not recording in a studio but instead out in the field under less than ideal conditions to do a voice over, then I'd be using my Sanken CS3e up close.
 
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https://www.acoustimac.com

Here is a link to a company I have used for finished acoustic panels when I don't have the time to build them myself. Every so often they have kits on sale. If you would like more info or pics of my last installation let me know.

After 40 years and over 86,000 sessions of professional VO work, I encourage you to handle the acoustics of your recording space before you invest in more gear for said space. There will be a day and night difference

Good luck with your project!

Dave
 
Alex H. said:
The thing about absolute silence is that you're not going to get it by treating your room on a budget. The kind of thing that Bruce is talking about requires building an isolation room: floating floors, resilient channel inside a multi-layered wall, double-paned windows made especially for recording, heavy doors that seal... this is all very complicated and very expensive.
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Not what I intended.

I generally separate sound proofing (building a room so that exterior sounds can't penetrate, and interior sounds can't escape), from sound treatment (bass traps, sound absorption, sound diffusion -- all done to make a room "sound" the way you want it to sound, be it a listening room, mixing stage, recording studio, or VO booth).

But clearly, if you're in the flight path of the local airport or near a freeway, it's not going to be enough just to treat the room. OTOH, if you're talking about a second story room in a suburban house, you might have sufficient control of noise sources in the house, and your neighborhood might be sufficiently quiet, that sound treatment is sufficient.

That said, one can build a small VO booth that's basically a room-within-a-room. That is, the booth floor is sprung/damped from the room floor and has nice insulated walls / ceiling that don't touch the room walls and ceiling (to avoid sound transmission in either direction). Then you only have to apply sound treatment to the booth, not the entire room. But you do need the booth to be pretty dead -- you have to sufficiently damp out the reflections or you'll still get "small room sound". I've seen VO booths where they use music stands to hold the scripts, and they treat the music stands to knock down their reflections.

Going the room-within-a-room route would knock down rumbles that originate from outside, etc. But they can be uncomfortable and claustrophobic for the talent; you have to spend some time working on lighting, ventilation, etc. I suggest if you are serious about going this route that you hire an acoustical consultant at least in the design phase. Better to do it right the first time than to do it over, and over, and over.

If it were me, and it's not, I think the first thing I'd do is hang a microphone in the space and record room tone for a while (at different times of day, etc.), then listen to it and decide whether room treatment will be sufficient, or whether a room-within-a-room sound booth is required. The character of the noise will tell you which way to go.
 
I've recorded and edited a lot of VO in my time. The go-to mic when I was working on video games was the Neumann TLM-103. Fantastic mic, but it might be overkill for what you are looking to do. But, the idea here is a large diaphragm studio condenser mic. Aston microphones has a nice mic called the Origin that isn't bank breaking:

https://www.dvestore.com/aston-origin-cardioid-condenser-mic/

You'd want the shock mount for it as well:
https://www.dvestore.com/aston-universal-rycote-shockmount/

I've found for the type of work you are doing that full on room treatment can get expensive and time consuming. It is definitely ideal if it is your full time gig, but honestly, I've had good luck with something like this:

https://www.dvestore.com/aston-halo-reflection-filter/

It's a reflection filter and cuts out a bunch of room reflections. When I was working in video games in Vegas I had something similar and it worked very well for VO that I put into games.

For a recorder/USB interface, a MixPre-3 would work very well. I did a video series on them when they came out, and I did two videos specifically about USB functionality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdVvztPMEx4&list=PLFpXePzBF0FkMwHNaYSnBWzAOsoQ-gkOH

The MixPre-3 has fantastic mic-pres as well as an excellent headphone amp. This is very important to me as accurate monitoring is crucial. You can record onto the Mixpre-3 AND use it as a USB interface at the same time to run into whatever software you are using. I've even run audio back out of the computer into the MixPre and recorded that return audio on another track. This is great for recording things like Skype calls.

-Dave
 
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