AC130: Video footage of the Auto Focus in action
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ChrisHarding
Well-known member
Hi Rod
If it helps any my one 130 did lockup in low light during a wedding speech. The speaker bent down to pick up a piece of paper and when he re-appeared the focus just locked up solid BUT zooming out cleared it...Over 80 hours on each camera that was the only time I got a genuine lockup. Did you try firstly doing a zoom right out in the same low light conditions...it should clear the lockup and secondly have you tried the same test say, outdoors??? I think it's a low light issue that causes it too, combined with big zooms.
It's pretty important that Karl/Walter/Woof replicates your test..ie: indoors and a high zoom with low light..he did a test for me outdoors and no lockup occured at all. If his camera does the same thing (low indoor light and high zoom) then it must be just a quirk that the camera has in those conditions and not your specific camera being faulty. I did find that the higher the zoom, the more likely it is to occur. I never had any lockup at full wide with my 130's and the focus was pretty reliable but when I did a long zoom inside a Church, the focus did slow down considerably!!
If it helps any my one 130 did lockup in low light during a wedding speech. The speaker bent down to pick up a piece of paper and when he re-appeared the focus just locked up solid BUT zooming out cleared it...Over 80 hours on each camera that was the only time I got a genuine lockup. Did you try firstly doing a zoom right out in the same low light conditions...it should clear the lockup and secondly have you tried the same test say, outdoors??? I think it's a low light issue that causes it too, combined with big zooms.
It's pretty important that Karl/Walter/Woof replicates your test..ie: indoors and a high zoom with low light..he did a test for me outdoors and no lockup occured at all. If his camera does the same thing (low indoor light and high zoom) then it must be just a quirk that the camera has in those conditions and not your specific camera being faulty. I did find that the higher the zoom, the more likely it is to occur. I never had any lockup at full wide with my 130's and the focus was pretty reliable but when I did a long zoom inside a Church, the focus did slow down considerably!!
Hi again Chris,
Yes I have repeated this in high contrast outside and still achieved lock-ups, although not as frequently.
It is a challenging test I suppose ( but my Sony cmos single chip HD at one third of the price had no problem but is only 14 times zoom not 22).
I accept the slow focus for all the reasons Jan and Barry stated- what I struggle with is why it fails 30% and succeeds 70% when nothing has changed. It is the random failure that I struggle with and its inability to produce repeatable results under these conditions ( not truly scientific I agree but WFM was checked to ensure no overly demanding conditions. and for a camera costing just shy of $7400NZ is a bitter pill to swallow.) I use a Steadicam pilot from time to time and autofocus in unpredictable, and sometimes unrepeatable situations is a must.
Thanks for your continued feedback. I await feedback from our Local Panasonic service centre and just hope they confirm that it does have a fixable problem, because I really do love what this camera is capable of.
Cheers
Rod
Yes I have repeated this in high contrast outside and still achieved lock-ups, although not as frequently.
It is a challenging test I suppose ( but my Sony cmos single chip HD at one third of the price had no problem but is only 14 times zoom not 22).
I accept the slow focus for all the reasons Jan and Barry stated- what I struggle with is why it fails 30% and succeeds 70% when nothing has changed. It is the random failure that I struggle with and its inability to produce repeatable results under these conditions ( not truly scientific I agree but WFM was checked to ensure no overly demanding conditions. and for a camera costing just shy of $7400NZ is a bitter pill to swallow.) I use a Steadicam pilot from time to time and autofocus in unpredictable, and sometimes unrepeatable situations is a must.
Thanks for your continued feedback. I await feedback from our Local Panasonic service centre and just hope they confirm that it does have a fixable problem, because I really do love what this camera is capable of.
Cheers
Rod
ChrisHarding
Well-known member
Hi Rod
That sounds like a good decision..especially with the lockups in good lighting. That seems to indicate a definate camera fault for sure and for me if the AF is not usable or repeatable then it's useless to me. I use my stedicam at every wedding and AF is an absolute essential ... I circle the couple going from maybe 10 metres away right up to them and behind and holding the darn rig is hard enough but if you had to manual focus it wouldn't be practical. I could have lived with a scenario of say 1 second to grab focus but at weddings you just cannot have it happening as you are doing non repeatable events...Imagine telling Dad that he has to do his speech again cos your camera locked up. My HMC82's are around half the price of the 130 and at full zoom (12X) focus is instant!! and repeatable (not that I shoot at 12X zoom much) I really don't think it's a challenging test at all....if the cam has autofocus then it should be able to lock in and not lockout in that situation...my cheaper Panasonic and your cheap Sony both achieve it instantly!!
Hopefully there is a fault on the camera and they can fix it/replace it (Just for interest was your test done at 23X zoom?)
Holding thumbs that you get yours fixed eventually by the agent..I took the easy way out and lost money on getting rid of both units after 3 months and changed models as I just couldn't afford to blow a bunch of weddings in a row.
Good Luck
Chris
That sounds like a good decision..especially with the lockups in good lighting. That seems to indicate a definate camera fault for sure and for me if the AF is not usable or repeatable then it's useless to me. I use my stedicam at every wedding and AF is an absolute essential ... I circle the couple going from maybe 10 metres away right up to them and behind and holding the darn rig is hard enough but if you had to manual focus it wouldn't be practical. I could have lived with a scenario of say 1 second to grab focus but at weddings you just cannot have it happening as you are doing non repeatable events...Imagine telling Dad that he has to do his speech again cos your camera locked up. My HMC82's are around half the price of the 130 and at full zoom (12X) focus is instant!! and repeatable (not that I shoot at 12X zoom much) I really don't think it's a challenging test at all....if the cam has autofocus then it should be able to lock in and not lockout in that situation...my cheaper Panasonic and your cheap Sony both achieve it instantly!!
Hopefully there is a fault on the camera and they can fix it/replace it (Just for interest was your test done at 23X zoom?)
Holding thumbs that you get yours fixed eventually by the agent..I took the easy way out and lost money on getting rid of both units after 3 months and changed models as I just couldn't afford to blow a bunch of weddings in a row.
Good Luck
Chris
Hi Chris, yes maximum zoom. This camera is a huge bang for buck and I don't think there is anything out there that comes as well specified for the money. If this is a fault then I am going to be an extremely happy bunny!
Although I think now that the AC90 will be a better 2nd purchase just for steadicam use. The demonstation of rapid focus and the adjusting shutter speed is ideal for that type of work and will suit you for sure with your wedding walk-arounds. (a stop to adjust ND in a walk-around sort of spoils the flow doesn't it !)
Rod
Although I think now that the AC90 will be a better 2nd purchase just for steadicam use. The demonstation of rapid focus and the adjusting shutter speed is ideal for that type of work and will suit you for sure with your wedding walk-arounds. (a stop to adjust ND in a walk-around sort of spoils the flow doesn't it !)
Rod
ChrisHarding
Well-known member
Hi Rod
Despite the focus issues on my 130's I managed to control that but what really threw me was the autoiris which is really totally unusable if you need an unattended camera and if the sun goes behind a cloud during a stedicam shoot you are sunk! To be perfectly honest I wasn't that happy with the audio (you have to use manual again as the auto clips really badly) and the ATW (this also could be the big zoom issue) was poor too. Seriously my HMC82's (at less than half the price) can be taken out of the box and used and they will pass any test. Not only does the auto focus and auto iris work perfectly but I get a stunning image from the cameras with scene files set at default..on the 130's I had to switch to F3 as my first shoot was totally washed out chroma wise. I mainly upgraded for the 1/3rd sensors and found that at dark and dingy wedding venues they don't help all that much anyway ...I'm pretty happy where I am again with two 1/4" chip cameras that cost me less than one AC-160. Yeah I will admit that all the features provided on the 160A does make it a good value for money camera...let's just hope the dealer can sort out your issue!
Chris
Despite the focus issues on my 130's I managed to control that but what really threw me was the autoiris which is really totally unusable if you need an unattended camera and if the sun goes behind a cloud during a stedicam shoot you are sunk! To be perfectly honest I wasn't that happy with the audio (you have to use manual again as the auto clips really badly) and the ATW (this also could be the big zoom issue) was poor too. Seriously my HMC82's (at less than half the price) can be taken out of the box and used and they will pass any test. Not only does the auto focus and auto iris work perfectly but I get a stunning image from the cameras with scene files set at default..on the 130's I had to switch to F3 as my first shoot was totally washed out chroma wise. I mainly upgraded for the 1/3rd sensors and found that at dark and dingy wedding venues they don't help all that much anyway ...I'm pretty happy where I am again with two 1/4" chip cameras that cost me less than one AC-160. Yeah I will admit that all the features provided on the 160A does make it a good value for money camera...let's just hope the dealer can sort out your issue!
Chris
ChrisHarding
Well-known member
That was one of my big issues too!! The ATW was not nearly as good as my HMC80's ...it nails white balance in auto every time..in fact even in ATW if you zoom into anything white it will correct itself and keep it there. I seldom if ever need to post correct but on the 130's Church walls were always yellow for some reason...I found that even the little GoPro on the back balcony never needs correction. Maybe I'm just fussy but the 130 never ever gave me a WOW image!! Even on "spark" (f3 scene file) it still just appeared oversaturated. Now on my HMC80's I get an image that really sparkles WITHOUT any scene file parameters applied..I just shoot on the default file (all set to zero) and the end result is really great!!
Did you ever use the auto level on the XLR's ....I shoot at weddings and the music is pretty loud so on the HMC80 I just flick to auto and the levels are perfect (all other times are manual) I did the same on the 130 and in my NLE (Vegas 10) I was horrified to find that the cam seemed to have given the top half ONLY of the waveform an army haircut....it leaves the bottom untouched and sorta limits everything on the top so you don't still get an natural waveform...it sounds very flat indeed!!! The 80's in auto adjust the input level so you get a perfect waveform with no clipping at all..just optimised to a lower level and it sounds really good too...I dunno what they did to the ALC on the 130 but it doesn't work well at all..You have to use manual!!
Chris
Did you ever use the auto level on the XLR's ....I shoot at weddings and the music is pretty loud so on the HMC80 I just flick to auto and the levels are perfect (all other times are manual) I did the same on the 130 and in my NLE (Vegas 10) I was horrified to find that the cam seemed to have given the top half ONLY of the waveform an army haircut....it leaves the bottom untouched and sorta limits everything on the top so you don't still get an natural waveform...it sounds very flat indeed!!! The 80's in auto adjust the input level so you get a perfect waveform with no clipping at all..just optimised to a lower level and it sounds really good too...I dunno what they did to the ALC on the 130 but it doesn't work well at all..You have to use manual!!
Chris
Yeah as time progressed the audio functions have deteriorated.
I had a Panasonic camera that a 3 position choice; Manual, Limiter, Auto. I could put it in limiter and manual set the limits knowing the camera will prevent a over modulation. It worked perfectly every time, for every thing I did.
Now I can put it in auto and trust the levels which seems to push everything up and crush the peaks or I have to put in manual and deal with those poorly designed knobs which are a pain to adjust. And if I get a unusual peak in manual --- I am screwed.
Love that screwed in clear shield (sarcasm)-- what a waste. They should of made it a flip up shield or leave it off completely.
I had a Panasonic camera that a 3 position choice; Manual, Limiter, Auto. I could put it in limiter and manual set the limits knowing the camera will prevent a over modulation. It worked perfectly every time, for every thing I did.
Now I can put it in auto and trust the levels which seems to push everything up and crush the peaks or I have to put in manual and deal with those poorly designed knobs which are a pain to adjust. And if I get a unusual peak in manual --- I am screwed.
Love that screwed in clear shield (sarcasm)-- what a waste. They should of made it a flip up shield or leave it off completely.
kwkeirstead
Well-known member
Oops, one of the first things I did was to remove the little plastic shield.
You are right about the two options, either 1) you do auto and, as you say, crush the peaks (which ruins the audio) or 2) you do manual and supposedly listen to the entire performance during rehearsal and set your volume so you never hit the red line (which ruins part of the audio).
So, safe is take two channels, one from an on camera mic at a lower level and one XML from whatever sound board may be available as provided by others, set at a reasonable volume level. If you red line on the XML, then you have the mic channel as backup but you need to adjust it post recording so there is no great shift around the red peaks.
I also record separately on a Tascam DR 100mk II because no guarantee I will get a consistent good feed out of a sound board that is not mine and no guarantee I will get a respectable signal from the on-camera mic.
It's not easy to align the audio signals.
I suspect I need to buy a clapper.
I wish the volume dials on 130/160 were not so sensitive - too low you have a weak signal, increase it by just a touch and it's too loud. Anyone else have this problem?
You are right about the two options, either 1) you do auto and, as you say, crush the peaks (which ruins the audio) or 2) you do manual and supposedly listen to the entire performance during rehearsal and set your volume so you never hit the red line (which ruins part of the audio).
So, safe is take two channels, one from an on camera mic at a lower level and one XML from whatever sound board may be available as provided by others, set at a reasonable volume level. If you red line on the XML, then you have the mic channel as backup but you need to adjust it post recording so there is no great shift around the red peaks.
I also record separately on a Tascam DR 100mk II because no guarantee I will get a consistent good feed out of a sound board that is not mine and no guarantee I will get a respectable signal from the on-camera mic.
It's not easy to align the audio signals.
I suspect I need to buy a clapper.
I wish the volume dials on 130/160 were not so sensitive - too low you have a weak signal, increase it by just a touch and it's too loud. Anyone else have this problem?
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Hi Karl et al,
Just to get back on topic of focus I am very keen to check out a similar simulation to my focus lock up video. Did you run the indoor near/far focus test Karl? As I mentioned earlier, do check the distance meter when going from far to near. Mine, on lock-up I am pretty sure indicated infinity.
For reference aperture was wide because of deliberate low light (but within WFM) and zoom was full with camera on full auto.
Update: I have been advised that NZ Panasonic have referred my email and video to Japan for further comment .
Rod
Just to get back on topic of focus I am very keen to check out a similar simulation to my focus lock up video. Did you run the indoor near/far focus test Karl? As I mentioned earlier, do check the distance meter when going from far to near. Mine, on lock-up I am pretty sure indicated infinity.
For reference aperture was wide because of deliberate low light (but within WFM) and zoom was full with camera on full auto.
Update: I have been advised that NZ Panasonic have referred my email and video to Japan for further comment .
Rod
kwkeirstead
Well-known member
Hi, Rod.. I will do that test today. I just put in new firmware and am at version 3.05 on the 160A.
kwkeirstead
Well-known member
I ran a test on one object at 5 feet, the other at 40 feet. I did get lockup (some of the time) going from far to near and the meter was indeed at infinity.
There seems to be a difference in the behavior when AREA is on compared to AREA off.
More testing, then a videol
There seems to be a difference in the behavior when AREA is on compared to AREA off.
More testing, then a videol
kwkeirstead
Well-known member
I ran two tests, one at z50 the other at Z86
Area ON - difficulty with remote object focusing (jiggle fixes)
Area OFF-difficulty with near object focusing (jiggle fixes)
Area ON - difficulty with remote object focusing (jiggle fixes)
Area OFF-difficulty with near object focusing (jiggle fixes)
Hi Karl,
firstly thankyou for supporting my tests with your own trials. This is in a way disappointing news, and in my opinion totally unacceptable performance for a camera of this calibre and cost. I did hope that you wouldn't be able to duplicate this problem.
My observations on the distance meter were correct then: Locking on infinity when going from far to near. This is further data to provide to Panasonic: I have already mentioned this in my email to them.
Jan suggested that I show Panasonic Service some sample video of the problem ,which as you know have done. It would be nice if you and others could also produce evidence in video to corroborate this. I am now awaiting feedback from Panasonic Japan and I hope they read this forum.
firstly thankyou for supporting my tests with your own trials. This is in a way disappointing news, and in my opinion totally unacceptable performance for a camera of this calibre and cost. I did hope that you wouldn't be able to duplicate this problem.
My observations on the distance meter were correct then: Locking on infinity when going from far to near. This is further data to provide to Panasonic: I have already mentioned this in my email to them.
Jan suggested that I show Panasonic Service some sample video of the problem ,which as you know have done. It would be nice if you and others could also produce evidence in video to corroborate this. I am now awaiting feedback from Panasonic Japan and I hope they read this forum.
ChrisHarding
Well-known member
Hi Rod
My reasoning (and my resultant disposal of my 130's) was based on the fact that thousands of these units have been already shipped and are in use so from a business point of view, I can't see them recalling all 160's and 160A's for modifications etc etc. I think the end result will be that you have to either change it for something else or live with the issue. For your sake I certainly hope that your camera, is, in fact, faulty, but based on the fact that others can replicate focus lockups and generally very slow focus means that that's the way it's going to work. It's really a darn nice camera but I would say, if you don't get any joy, simply resign yourself to using it in full manual only and forget that it has any sort of auto. In my days of stills, classy cameras like the Mamiya RB67 had manual everything ...the word auto simply didn't exist!! Since you don't do event run 'n gun, shooting manual should be an issue. I know the auto should work correctly and earlier this year I got pretty annoyed when I was told shoot manual but it certainly looks like the only solution if you want to keep using the camera!! I truly know what you are going through!!!
Chris
My reasoning (and my resultant disposal of my 130's) was based on the fact that thousands of these units have been already shipped and are in use so from a business point of view, I can't see them recalling all 160's and 160A's for modifications etc etc. I think the end result will be that you have to either change it for something else or live with the issue. For your sake I certainly hope that your camera, is, in fact, faulty, but based on the fact that others can replicate focus lockups and generally very slow focus means that that's the way it's going to work. It's really a darn nice camera but I would say, if you don't get any joy, simply resign yourself to using it in full manual only and forget that it has any sort of auto. In my days of stills, classy cameras like the Mamiya RB67 had manual everything ...the word auto simply didn't exist!! Since you don't do event run 'n gun, shooting manual should be an issue. I know the auto should work correctly and earlier this year I got pretty annoyed when I was told shoot manual but it certainly looks like the only solution if you want to keep using the camera!! I truly know what you are going through!!!
Chris
kwkeirstead
Well-known member
Test results here below (Z86, open iris, AREA off)
See 3-4 cycles of normal behavior, then one final cycle where the AF is "sticky" - jiggling the camera allows focus lock-down to occur
http://youtu.be/2bYIjdgD1yI
See 3-4 cycles of normal behavior, then one final cycle where the AF is "sticky" - jiggling the camera allows focus lock-down to occur
http://youtu.be/2bYIjdgD1yI
ChrisHarding
Well-known member
Hey Walter
That is really really slow and when you pan across everything is blurry too....I'm convinced (even at that zoom) that is not how the camera should behave at all!! I would very much like to see if Jan considers that normal ????
Looks like it's not only Rod's 160A with an issue??? By jiggling do you mean pan a bit left or right? That shouldn't be necessary at all. It would be interesting to see if the focus is still slow at half zoom?? or at what point it starts to give issues?
Chris
That is really really slow and when you pan across everything is blurry too....I'm convinced (even at that zoom) that is not how the camera should behave at all!! I would very much like to see if Jan considers that normal ????
Looks like it's not only Rod's 160A with an issue??? By jiggling do you mean pan a bit left or right? That shouldn't be necessary at all. It would be interesting to see if the focus is still slow at half zoom?? or at what point it starts to give issues?
Chris
kwkeirstead
Well-known member
Chris . . . The time to achieve focus lock-in is likely to change as we move from low light, high zoom to high lighting and no zoom, except that Push Auto (had I used that), would have resulted in instance lock-in. It's a mystery how in one mode lock-in is instant and not in another mode.
As for panning, I recall Barry's book has a section that details the required time for a pan under different conditions.
In any case, I will post here a repeat test video for AREA ON in a few hours.
Here, it gets complicated - it seems that if you position the AREA such that it covers a high contrast area, you will get good lock-in times, otherwise the lock-in time over the 1st recording is greatly increased.
The problem of course is a position that works for the near object is not likely to be a high contrast area for the far object. Unless I don't properly understand the purpose of AREA ON and how it works.
I might as well agree to repeat both tests at 1/3 zoom so we can all see the difference.
As for panning, I recall Barry's book has a section that details the required time for a pan under different conditions.
In any case, I will post here a repeat test video for AREA ON in a few hours.
Here, it gets complicated - it seems that if you position the AREA such that it covers a high contrast area, you will get good lock-in times, otherwise the lock-in time over the 1st recording is greatly increased.
The problem of course is a position that works for the near object is not likely to be a high contrast area for the far object. Unless I don't properly understand the purpose of AREA ON and how it works.
I might as well agree to repeat both tests at 1/3 zoom so we can all see the difference.