VENICE: Avatar 2 & 3

[NorBro]

Where may I find a link to which cameras they tested? (Just curious.)

Sony worked with them on the Fusion camera for the first Avatar 10 years ago (as Jon briefly mentioned) so it's not surprising the relationship has continued as they were a big part of the movie's success.

I'm curious about the test(s) because based on what they seem to be looking for like size/weight (mainly for support gear and tight spaces as mentioned), and specs (HR & HDR & HFR), the MONSTRO 8K VV would be a pretty ideal option, IMO. (They would be missing the internal NDs they seem to like, but then it also wouldn't be tethered to a 20' cable for those 20' drone shots the Sony rep talked about, lol).

They did mention it's in the concept/feedback stage...interested to see what will change, if anything.

Nevertheless - whether it is the best option or not is none of my business and not for me to argue - but I couldn't see them going with anyone else but Sony after the first movie.

 

[Guest]

@Norbro

I am assuming the logistics of a tethered light camera with internal ND, is better for the day than Red's untethered. Swapping ND wastes time. The extra weight of the reds would mean faster fatigue on the operators, which wastes more time. Either way you have a spotter, tethered is not the worst in controlled or semi controlled environments.

I am not sure I would get the Venice for myself though. I might still prefer an Alexa for what I do. But Venice seems to make a lot of sense for something like Avatar (very imho, here). They used modded F900's, or whatever, on the first one, and it didn't do so bad. Can't imagine what that same team can now do with a Venice! Damn!

 

[NorBro]

I hear you on the NDs, but the weight difference wouldn't be too applicable in this case, IMO.

If they're going to run a cable from the block then they could do the same thing with RED's box. Both would then be approximately the same weight (give/take).

Sony's claiming 3lbs for the block vs. RED's 3.35lb brain, and the only additional weight would be a 1lb module and 45 grams for a mag (the media bay's weight is included in the 3.35lbs). The mount may add weight too...not sure if it's included in the brain's weight. The control would be wireless.

The various lens choices would apply to both.

 

[jcs]

Where may I find a link to which cameras they tested? (Just curious.)

Unless this was a mistake, it looks like they were going to go with Red at first: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/44-movies-concerts-music-discussion/2979330-cameras-avatar-2-a.html

It's now been updated: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1630029/technical?ref_=tt_dt_spec

In terms of image quality and color, IMO nothing can compete with the Alexa LF (or rental-only 65), except the VENICE, which exceeds the Alexa LF in being a fully 4K "Nyquist Limit" camera, sampling at 6K vs. 4.4K for the Alexa LF. In terms of color, the VENICE skintones are very impressive, at least as good as the F65 from demos so far, probably better. Even more impressive is the VENICE is more the 2x lower cost vs. the Alexa LF.

If I were producing a high-end production, I'd certainly test the Alexa LF/65 against the VENICE (possibly Red, though haven't been a fan of their color science vs. the other top cameras (It has gotten much better over the years; not quite up to Alexa level yet)).

 

[NorBro]

I don't think anyone would blink at 3lbs vs. 5lbs. (3.35lb brain - 1 pound power module - 1 pound lens mount).

As mentioned, if they are running a cable from the Sony to a bigger piece of hardware (the actual Venice system), they can run a cable from the RED to power it from something else.

There is nothing else that is needed to make the camera work that would make it heavier than 5lbs...and we don't even know if the final weight of the Sony sensor block will be exactly 3lbs. Because maybe it will be 4lbs and then you're talking about a one pound difference.

It's not a debate anyone would have if the RED was the better system (or that company was in the relationship).

I'm not saying the RED's the better choice, just saying. I'm sure the Venice will look amazing...the clips online already look amazing.

 

[jcs]

Not everyone wants to shoot with a tiny camera, regardless of image quality. They have their uses and advantages, at times. But being a largely handheld guy, I want a camera that sits on my shoulder, balances properly, has a real VF in the right place and a real lens(ENG style). I'm not saying that there's not an advantage to having the bulk of the electronics in a backpack and a small "sensor block with a lens" that you could easily hold in one hand to swing around for certain things, but those would be pretty specialized/unique situations.

Maybe I'm just a dinosaur and stuck in the old days, but I'd rather have a shoulder mounted ENG style camera and lens almost any day of the week. It's gonna work for my style of shooting the best 90%+ of the time.

If a tiny camera is created with pro level IQ, then a shoulder mount build option with real VF could easily be achieved as well. And since the camera would have a very effective IBIS, the entire system could be very light, causing no shoulder or back pain even after full day shoots. Perhaps a modular system similar to what's going on with the VENICE, except without the tether (full camera works without the shoulder-body).

 

[Guest]

I don't think anyone would blink at 3lbs vs. 5lbs. (3.35lb brain - 1 pound power module - 1 pound lens mount).

As mentioned, if they are running a cable from the Sony to a bigger piece of hardware (the actual Venice system), they can run a cable from the RED to power it from something else.

There is nothing else that is needed to make the camera work that would make it heavier than 5lbs...and we don't even know if the final weight of the Sony sensor block will be exactly 3lbs. Because maybe it will be 4lbs and then you're talking about a one pound difference.

It's not a debate anyone would have if the RED was the better system (or that company was in the relationship).

I'm not saying the RED's the better choice, just saying. I'm sure the Venice will look amazing...the clips online already look amazing.

Sorry, I deleted my response. I felt you already said what I said, so I didn't think I was adding anything. If I had a camera with possibly a better image, internal ND's, and 4+lbs off the 3D rig weight, add that Sony is collaborating, and I would probably go with that camera. Especially considering that a Red would also have to be tethered to even get close to that weight. We can talk about this till we are blue in the face (see what I did there?) but yeah, there is not going to be a huge difference between the Red and the Venice, but the benefits are in favor of the Venice, even if they are small. Again, the team behind Avatar could make any of the top cameras work and look amazing.

 

[NorBro]

If I were producing a high-end production, I'd certainly test the Alexa LF/65 against the VENICE (possibly Red, though haven't been a fan of their color science vs. the other top cameras (It has gotten much better over the years; not quite up to Alexa level yet)).

You don't like? :kiss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygOi3Vth6n4

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At the end of the day, I'm not spending more than $2K on any camera ever again, lol...so I'm just dreaming about any of these.

 

[Guest]

At the end of the day, I'm not spending more than $2K on any camera ever again, lol...so I'm just dreaming about any of these.

I feel you on this. As long as I am where I am, which I don't think will change anytime soon, these are just dreams and the occasional rental.

 

[jcs]

You don't like? :kiss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygOi3Vth6n4

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At the end of the day, I'm not spending more than $2K on any camera ever again, lol...so I'm just dreaming about any of these.

It looks... competent. Impressive examples for the Alexa LF and even more so on the VENICE (watch in 4K fullscreen)
Alexa LF- flawless detail, incredibly accurate skintones, artifact free:

VENICE- amazing skintones and detail:

Amazing color, dynamic range, and flawless, alias/moire-free detail on highly detailed material:

Anything like these examples exist from the Red VV?

 

[NorBro]

They all look good...

In general, you're excited about the Venice right now, and you're going to think what you want to think and believe what you're saying (there's no right or wrong) the more you say it, lol.

But if you set up a focus group with hundreds of good ole regular folks and showcase similar videos - maybe like the Venice make-up video above with the 'amazing' skintones and detail, and a RED video from 5 years ago (or a newer one below that) - I'm not sure anyone will be too jarred with the difference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyIAV5YVjA4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw-qEKR5uv8

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All of the cameras are really good and the only difference maker that's left will be the content on the screen that's battling to keep someone's interest.

 

[jcs]

They all look good...

In general, you're excited about the Venice right now, and you're going to think what you want to think and believe what you're saying (there's no right or wrong) the more you say it, lol.

But if you set up a focus group with hundreds of good ole regular folks and showcase similar videos - maybe like the Venice make-up video above with the 'amazing' skintones and detail, and a RED video from 5 years ago (or a newer one below that) - I'm not sure anyone will be too jarred with the difference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyIAV5YVjA4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw-qEKR5uv8

---

All of the cameras are really good and the only difference maker that's left will be the content on the screen that's battling to keep someone's interest.

Based on top films, including all the recent Academy Award-winning films, where any camera can be used, the Alexa 65 and LF are currently the top cameras (along with the older non 4K Alexas).

So many films that have given the "Wow!" or "Amazing!" reaction, after looking up in IMDB, were an Alexa. Never Red or Sony. That said, every now and then something looks decent, and when looked up, surprised it was Red or Sony F55. The first Sony that got a "Wow!" lookup was Oblivion (F65). Then Lucy (F65). For a variety of reasons, the F65 never got much traction. Now the VENICE is looking as good or better than the F65, and getting the "Wow!" and "Amazing!" reaction from a few VENICE examples (the 3 in this thread, there are other examples (such as The Dig), that did not).

For the videos you linked, the skin tones were OK, the detail (not sharpness) was a bit lower in comparison to the Alexa LF and VENICE examples in this thread, perhaps related to both cameras using the very latest in top full frame lens tech (ARRI Signature Primes, Leica Thalia etc.), Red compression level, or possibly YouTube changed something recently (perhaps increased bitrate allowance for 4K?).

Agreed all these cameras are really good. For years (at the highest level) producers could choose between Alexa and Red, and Alexa was chosen most often. I can see the difference- better skin tones (most important), highlights, looks closer to film, and generates the most emotion (certainly related to the best filmmakers tending to use Alexas with better stories, camera work, lighting, lenses, etc.).

After Lucy was released, it was the first time I saw a camera that not only could compete with the Alexa Wow/Amazing factor, could possibly surpass it. Turns out they tested every top camera, and found the F65 looked better. As in produced better looking images. One reason they noted that the F65 wasn't used much in Hollywood was that the physical camera itself didn't look good! More info here: http://www.fdtimes.com/2014/07/24/luc-bessons-lucy-described-by-thierry-arbogast-afc/ (they used Reds as B/action cameras because they couldn't obtain any more F65s in Europe at the time).

So now we have the VENICE, with an even better full frame sensor (using the F65 color filters and improved color science), a more workflow friendly compressed RAW codec (smaller than ProRes 4444, probably holding more detail vs. REDCODE (based on examples shown so far))), super simplified menu system (unlike older Sony and current Red cameras, more like Alexa), and over 2x lower cost vs. the Alexa LF.

I've spent the last few years tuning color for Canon DSLRs and the C300 II (Filmic Skin project). I've been very focused on color, especially skin tones, and from the image processing/software side, been very aware of true, alias-free detail. While Red has improved their color science, it's not up there with ARRI. Getting max detail without ugly aliasing/moire artifacts is challenging. Canon hasn't performed well there (C300 II and even the first C700 FF demo had some issues), and Red tends to look low detail / soft compared to the Alexa 65/LF. The VENICE in VENICE demos are truly spectacular in maximizing detail with no artifacts, especially when viewed on a high-end calibrated 4K desktop display).

If you had an unlimited budget to shoot a top-of-the-line feature film, would you choose a Red over VENICE, Alexa 65/LF? From what I've seen so far I'd use Alexa/VENICE for A-cameras and possibly Reds for B-cameras.

 

[NorBro]

I just really like small systems. I'm a DSLR baby at heart and cannot stand big and heavy rigs with lots of items hanging from them. I also use auto-focus for everything, which is why I'm a heavy Canon user (and some Sony mirrorless' too).

I don't have much of an interest in making feature films or any films for that matter, but I'd like to see other DVXusers use these cameras and create some art.

If I could have it my way, I would take many of the features from all of these cameras (8K, any color science would be okay with me, HFRs, HDR, definitely Canon's DPAF, I'd choose REDCODE RAW as my RAW choice, etc.), and put them into a 1DX Mark II...the exact 1DX Mark II body.

 

[jcs]

For straight out of the camera quality, the 1DX II with Filmic Skin does very well against optimized settings with the C300 II (12-bit RGB 444 looks to be working better than the 1DX II 8-bit 422 on green screen). For stills and hand-held video, the 1DX II works well, however for gimbal work it's a bit too big and heavy (without a complex rig). Thus the upcoming Sony A7S III could be a nice sweet-spot camera for a while if it gets the 6K => 4K sensor, VENICE color filters and color science. The A7 III is already close (decent IBIS and AF, color needs a bit of work).

 

[Guest]

I just really like small systems. I'm a DSLR baby at heart and cannot stand big and heavy rigs with lots of items hanging from them. I also use auto-focus for everything, which is why I'm a heavy Canon user (and some Sony mirrorless' too).

I don't have much of an interest in making feature films or any films for that matter, but I'd like to see other DVXusers use these cameras and create some art.

If I could have it my way, I would take many of the features from all of these cameras (8K, any color science would be okay with me, HFRs, HDR, definitely Canon's DPAF, I'd choose REDCODE RAW as my RAW choice, etc.), and put them into a 1DX Mark II...the exact 1DX Mark II body.

Haha, wonder why you are even posting in this thread about a big 3D cinema camera and one of the biggest movies in the world. @Norbro, never really took you for the devil's advocate before. =)

Did you ever get to work with the Canon 60D much? I really liked the ergo's on that camera. All the core exposure settings could be changed with the right hand, allowing the left hand to stay with the focus. And the swivel flip out screen proved to be more durable than I thought with care. Became a great elf with a diopter eye cup. Always wished the 1DC had that flip out, could have saved the need for a big EVF sitting awkwardly in the hot-shoe. but 1DC was similar in the ergo factor. really nice, haven't found a camera as nice to operate for video as those two. Shoulder mount ENG cameras come very close, or surpass, just because they can do anything in one form that never changes, and you can get crazy fast with muscle memory. Cinema cameras with constant modification to the situation are slower.

 

[Guest]

For straight out of the camera quality, the 1DX II with Filmic Skin does very well against optimized settings with the C300 II (12-bit RGB 444 looks to be working better than the 1DX II 8-bit 422 on green screen). For stills and hand-held video, the 1DX II works well, however for gimbal work it's a bit too big and heavy (without a complex rig). Thus the upcoming Sony A7S III could be a nice sweet-spot camera for a while if it gets the 6K => 4K sensor, VENICE color filters and color science. The A7 III is already close (decent IBIS and AF, color needs a bit of work).

To this day, when I look back at my "old" 1DC footage, I wish more cameras had that out of the box good look! Never liked the C100/300, but the newer ones are pretty. The 1DC was just a well done camera that suffered from 8bit crippling. They should have implemented a 2K DCI 10bit on that camera. It only had about 11.5stops latitude, so it isn't like they would have crippled their cinema line long term. IDK. Now I am running around with an F35 tank. Sharkfin two Anton Bauer Cine Batteries gets me a couple hours of run time, and I get a work out and some smoothed out handheld work. BUT I get my 10bit 1080 that the 1DC never had.... and it makes a difference! But I could bring a 1DC anywhere, and the F35 is something I really have to prepare for when I go out.


EDIT, also, I don't think the RED videos do anything to sell RED skin tones. Nothing great going on skin tone wise in these videos:


^^^the way the colors break up at the top of the highlights, going yellowish, looks very 2012. The rest of the video has very little in skin tones.


Whereas in the Venice highlights, they seem to hold good color way up into the highlights:


The next RED video is worse:

 

[NorBro]

So now it's a big 3D cinema camera? I thought you said it was small :2vrolijk_08:

ha...the convo took a turn. That last post was a response to jcs asking me which I would choose for a feature (or maybe it was just a rhetorical question).

I didn't work with the 60D...a little too dated for me. I ran around with the 5D Mark II/III for a while "at that time" and then mainly shot on Blackmagic for years when everything else sucked or was too expensive in my opinion. I couldn't afford a 1DC when it was over $10K.

Then eventually started getting into Sony's mirrorless' as they started heating up and Canon's 5D Mark IV, 1DX Mark II, and most recently 6D Mark II.

I owned a RED Raven for a bit. I shot on tons of other cameras...

90D is due any day now (announcement) and is rumored to be filled with more competitive video features...we'll see.

Cameras can make you go insane.

 

[Guest]

So now it's a big 3D cinema camera? I thought you said it was small

Smaller. Smaller than the other options. It is a tethered 3D cinema rig. It is going to get heavy-ish at some point. Hence why saving a few pounds can make a difference on long days. (though I doubt that would be the only deciding factor) It is not a GH4.

But yeah, Black magic is/was a great option. I just never went down that path. Same with Alexa. I've only AC'd those cameras. Been mostly Canon, RED, Sony, Panasonic my whole life. Starting with Sony Betacam, Sony miniDV, then Panny Mini DV (Hence how I came across this forum in 2006, or so), then this weird Canon/Nikon few years, then Red, and now back to Sony mostly. F55, F35, A7sII.

Yeah, cameras can make us crazy.

They say the perfect camera will never exist, but there have been a few that got so close it is maddening. The 1DC in particular would have been the ultimate classic camera if the 1080 had a 10bit option. The f35 is a classic (turns on and off with almost zero boot time! unlike arr or red). The F55 is such an easy camera to use. The 60D had perfect ergonomics, and for it's time, the image wasn't all that bad. The DVX was pretty fantastic for it's time. What other cameras were practically perfect? I enjoy the old Varicam form too. I still own an SDX900 that is nearly perfect. The image has some cool mojo even today.

Cameras have so much farther to go. I am surprised they get crippled by marketing. There is so much room for improvment there is always going to be a need for a new camera. Crazy that An old F35 beats most of the newer cameras out today!

 

[NorBro]

What other cameras were practically perfect?

Ha, that's a conversation for another thread...

As nice as the 1DC was, it had no AF in C-Log and the C-Log was atrocious in the highlights. Extremely harsh clipping (Canon still struggles with this today, in 2018). Muddy colors too that required good grading (which is why I'm surprised with your thoughts on those RED skintones which look pretty normal...and no regular viewer would ever know what you're talking about, lol).

Perfect cameras for me personally are DSLRs/mirrorless' because of the way I work...the muscle memory as you briefly mentioned. I love being able to change the aperture with my thumb on the dial, and the shutter with my index finger, and having quick programmable buttons near by, and of course the small package, and usually the superb AF (in my case Canon/Sony).

Even though I don't like the size of either of these (and I once owned an URSA), I think the URSA 4K (you can include the URSA Mini 4K too) and the FS7 were the perfect cameras for their time. The Blackmagic community has their opinions. The RED community has theirs. All of the Japanese camera users will be fond of a system from one time or another...but I think nothing could touch those two cameras with the features they finally offered to people in late 2014 for the prices they asked for.

It was a turning point in the industry IMO.

I think we can thank them both for cameras like the RED Raven, C200, EVA1, etc.

IMO, everything before then was either very expensive and/or a bit behind as far as where the world was going (HR, HDR, HFR, 10-bit, RAW, etc).

Everything is far from perfect...but it's nice to see Blackmagic's 4K Pocket and everything the Panasonic GHx division is doing and cameras like the Z CAM E2 with 4K/120p supposedly shipping next month continue to keep pushing the specs for those prices.

 

[jcs]

What's interesting, with all our technical discussions, what ultimately makes everyone go WOW!, is how the images move us emotionally. For me it started with the Canon 5D Mark II, and currently the VENICE is even more impressive to me than the Alexa LF (probably also because VENICE is the underdog challenger). I get the same feeling looking at the images James0b57 posted for Red ("acceptable quality...", no emotion) vs. the VENICE (Wow! Look at those colors! From Sony no less!).

Regarding the 1DC- it was basically a 5D Mark III with "4K" and CLog. Stock, the 1DX II doesn't look as good as the 5D Mark III (still have one for testing) or 1DC. With a highly tuned Picture Style, the 1DX II looks great straight out of camera, along with DPAF: currently IMO the best image quality for a smallish camera. Sony A7R III, A7 III have better detail, IBIS, but not as good AF (getting better) or skin tones (+ better DR on the Sonys).

1DX II with a custom picture style (Filmic Skin):

I think the VENICE color filters + color science can match or exceed this. Will be amazing if A7S III rumors are true.