Using cardioid like a shotgun- distance question

W

Winston2012

New member
hello all,


I'm new to HDSLR and totally new to mics...so....

I need a mic for indoor interviews . I've been watching videos that say a shotgun is the wrong way to go and it's better to use a small diaphram cardioid (see BH videos and others). My intention is to keep the mic out of the frame but still have rich sound (or as much as possible). One pro video guy said they even boom-mount cardioids just like a shotgun - thereby getting the isolating effect of a shotgun and none of the rear reflection issues that plague a shotgun.

All this information comes from videos I've watched ..............


How far can you place a cordial mic from the talent?


PS - I don't want to use lavs.

Thanks in advance,
 
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For indoor interviews a hypercardioid is used. It has a very similar polar pattern to a supercardio (your typical shotgun) but because the technology behind it is different you won't experience the problems a supercardio has when shooting indoors. We use the lovely Oktava MK012. It's a very popular hypercardio in the indie film business.
 
For indoor interviews a hypercardioid is used ........... by some. It's become one of those 'rules' that mean newcomers buy one automatically as it's 'best'. I would consider using one as a plan B, but only after I'd had no luck with the short shotgun, or the cardioid - then I'd try the hyper, and if I liked what it captured, I'd be happy to use it - but I never go to it first. People seem to follow video 'rules' by looking in the viewfinder, but audio 'rules' by reading, NOT listening!
 
Kinoks:

Thanks for the for the correction to hypercardio, that's just the sort of information I was looking for... And as for the Oktava MK012 - I heard one in a video and they sound fantastic!

Paulears:

I agree that it's a pitfall to buy a cure-all microphone that is aimed at the novice, like playing golf with 1 club.

However, for my application - which microphone would be the most useful for a variety of indoor situations? The shotgun?
 
Winston2012 - always position the mic as close to the sound source as possible, then do as paulears would do and listen to what it sounds like, and adjust if need be. Usually, the closer the mic is, the better it sounds. I own hypers, cardioids and shotguns, and for indoor dialog, the hyper usually sounds best.
 
As I have stated here and elsewhere, anyone considering the 012 should educate themselves to the pitfalls. ie; sensitivity to air turbulence and handling noise, 'counterfeits', quality control issue, 'compatible' preamp and modification options. Despite it's attractive price tag, it may not be a good choice for the inexperienced. Does it sound good?.. Yes, it can sound almost as good as a Schoeps costing 4x more.
 
paulears said:
For indoor interviews a hypercardioid is used ........... by some. It's become one of those 'rules' that mean newcomers buy one automatically as it's 'best'...
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Yeah I know, I just didn't have the time to write a proper answer. So I just went with the standard: "get a hypercardio":)


Winston2012 said:
Kinoks:

Thanks for the for the correction to hypercardio, that's just the sort of information I was looking for... And as for the Oktava MK012 - I heard one in a video and they sound fantastic!

Paulears:

I agree that it's a pitfall to buy a cure-all microphone that is aimed at the novice, like playing golf with 1 club.

However, for my application - which microphone would be the most useful for a variety of indoor situations? The shotgun?
Click to expand...

Winston the Oktava Mk012 is a great mic. We bought this pack: http://www.oktava-online.com/mk012.htm
You get 3 capsules. One hypercardio, one cardio and one omni. It's a great deal. Yes the Oktava is susceptible to handling noise and wind
more so than other mics, but if you're planing to use it for indoor interviews chances are you won't be running up and down chasing the talent, and there probably wont be much wind:) (wind can come from the talents mouth but if the mic is going to be used on a boom pole than this is not a problem...). we've used it for indor interviews and had absolutely no problems with it.

@Rick R: I haven't heard anything about faulty mics. Please share you're experiences or that of others that you've heard of.
 
"I haven't heard anything about faulty mics. Please share you're experiences or that of others that you've heard of"
-- For a while, Oktava had a problem with quality control, (too much vodka on premises, or whatever the reason) some of the mics were coming though in 'less than perfect' condition.. physically and operationally and many sounded quite different. In recent years, this is not as much of an issue, but like anything, a new mic should be bought from a reputable source, and one should be cautious when buying used, which could be an inferior 'second' or a Chinese made counterfeit. (which is another story in itself) Many purchase Oktava mics from "The Sound Room" who 'hand picks', tests and tweaks each one (or matched stereo sets) for optimum performance. Of course this adds to the initial cost.. and should NOT be confused with the 'Dorsey Modification' typically offered by Bill's Recording and Michael Joly Engineering. (parts and design vary to a degree)
 
Cordial is defined as:


[TD="align: left"] cor·dial (kôr
prime.gif
j
schwa.gif
l) adj. 1. Warm and sincere; friendly: a cordial greeting; cordial relations. See Synonyms at gracious . 2. Strongly felt; fervent: a cordial abhorrence of waste. 3. Serving to invigorate; stimulating.

[/TD]

Please explain your definition of "cordial" in this context.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
How far can you place a cordial mic from the talent?
Click to expand...

I assume you mean cardioid, and to answer you question, placing a hypercardioid between 12-18 inches would be optimal.

If you're on a tight budget, an Oktava would be good, but as with any mic, you're going to also need a preamp and/or a recorder too. The simplest setup would be an Oktava and a Zoom H4n; and then all you would need to do is sync in post. Another suggestion would be the Oktava with a Juicedlink preamp and then recording straight into your DSLR. I'd only recommend recording to your camera if you have a Canon and have Magic Lantern installed. Otherwise, you can a use something like the Zoom H1 or Tascam DR-50 to record the audio.

So to sum up:

1. Oktava and Zoom H4n
2. Oktava and Juicedlink and recording straight into the camera (assuming you have a Canon and Magic Lantern installed)
3. Oktava and Juicedlink with a Zoom H1 or Tascam DR-05 recorder

These suggestions were based on a tight budget. You can probably get away with less if you used a lav, but you said you didn't want to use one. If you're getting paid for this, I'd probably spend more though.
 
tyreeford said:
Cordial is defined as:


[TD="align: left"] cor·dial (kôr
prime.gif
j
schwa.gif
l) adj. 1. Warm and sincere; friendly: a cordial greeting; cordial relations. See Synonyms at gracious . 2. Strongly felt; fervent: a cordial abhorrence of waste. 3. Serving to invigorate; stimulating.
[/TD]
Click to expand...

Also....

In parts of the United States, liqueurs may also be called cordials or schnapps,[1][2][3][4] while in large parts of the British Commonwealth, cordial means a concentrated non-alcoholic fruit syrup that is diluted to taste and consumed as a non-carbonated soft drink, and in Germany and Scandinavia, schnapps means a form of brandy or aquavit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liqueur
Click to expand...

A cordial is a type of confection in which a fruit filling is placed within a chocolate shell. A well known confectionery of this type is the cherry cordial..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordial_(candy)
Click to expand...

I keep trying to picture trying to use a shot of liqueur or candy on the talent.

The second law of thermodynamics predicts that if we don't actively maintain the language, it will decay into gibberish and the internet will become useless. :undecided
 
maybe it was a spell checker/changer. They have made me look stupid more than once.

Regards,

TYPHOID
 
I meant no offense, but if we can't maintain some sort of agreed upon standards, the language becomes useless. I appreciate when native speakers correct my grammar syntax, pronunciation, etc. when I am attempting to speak other languages.

Furthermore: Consider that use of a completely wrong word in the subject line will render this entire conversation useless to people who come along later searching for discussions about cardioid microphones, etc.
 
I'd like to remind everyone here that public shaming and rude posts, no matter what mood you're in when you post, do nothing to encourage learning. In fact, this can dissuade newbies from returning to post. There are ways to correct terminology that educate yet do not alienate.

Please try to keep this forum helpful, encouraging, and productive.
 
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Using a microphone hypercardioid indoors is always better. This reduces the problems of reverberation. In an interview it would be better to place the microphone below the frame toward the mouth of the person speaking. Using this way it could also use a shotgun microphone that has a posterior lobe very pronounced that in this way it would be facing downwards and not capture too much noise environment.
 
Interesting Sergio,

The times I've tried to boom from below, I can never get as close as I can by booming from overhead. Maybe you compose your shot differently than over here. We normally see down to the waist with the main camera.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
tyreeford said:
Interesting Sergio,

The times I've tried to boom from below, I can never get as close as I can by booming from overhead. Maybe you compose your shot differently than over here. We normally see down to the waist with the main camera.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Click to expand...

Same here. Booming is almost always done from above.
 
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