Upgrade Time! But To What?

M

MagicMountainMan

Member
I have a Tascam DR 100 (Original version, not the Mark II) that has served me well for these last few years. I also have a Rode NTG-2 paired with it. Yes, I know... The pairing of said instruments pretty much blows. I've been fine with it for the past few years because I haven't done anything too serious with them and it's a barely "passable" solution for audio. That being said, it's time for me to upgrade. I'm getting more serious about audio and the first thing I need to upgrade is my pre's. Mic upgrade will most likely come a bit later.

So in your opinion, what preamp and/or mixer should I get? Or more accurately, what should I pair the preamp/mixer with?

Option 1) YOLO it and get a MixPre-D and just run it into the DR 100's line in.
Option 2) Save money and get just the MixPre, not the D.
Option 3) Buy something like this on Ebay.
Option 4) Get a recorder that can take line level XLR input (something that the DR 100 can't do) and then add a MixPre. Does the DR-40 allow line level XLR input?
Option 5) Tell me what to do!

The one common theme is that I think I'll be getting a MixPre (D). My main conundrum is what to pair it with for optimal sound without spending $4000 on the 552 or something similar. I'd just rent it if that were the case.

So if any of you enlightened ones can help me out and give me advice on what configurations you've used to what degree of success, it would mean a lot! I've been reading through too many archives and have decided to finally just make a forum post myself!
 
The MixPre-D will work well with just about anything. The DR-40 can take balanced, line-level input. The Fostex FR2-LE is also a great match, and is much more bag-friendly when paired with the MixPre-D. The TASCAM HD-P2 is also a great match, bag-friendly, and adds SMPTE time code.

At this point, I wouldn't bother with the MixPre as it is discontinued and you'll only find it used. Don't get me wrong; it's a fine device, but the meters on the D are much, much better and there are some other useful improvements between the two.
 
What sort of work are you / wanting to do with it?
Do you need Time code?
What sort of camera are you using?
Will you ever need more than 2 channels?
 
To answer questions, I plan on using it for mostly semi professional narrative work. Time code really depends on the project, at this point it's 50/50. Camera varies as well from project to project, anywhere from an Alexa to a 5d to a 35mm. I personally have a GH2. I would also say that 95% of the time I wouldn't need more than 2 channels.

Also, the eBay link I posted, is that in any way a good deal? It's a mixpre and HD p2 with bags.

And with the DR100 inputting a line level signal into the line input is fine? No better or worse than sending line level over xlr into a different recorder?
 
Line level into the original dr100 works fine as a bit bucket with the right cable. You won't regret any SD purchase. I use a 302 which lets me mix an extra channel into two outputs, but is strictly analogue, and has a few things the MixpreD doesn't have. But the Digital options on the D are tempting.

The real question about the dr100 is how you plan to record. The form factor of using the dr100 in a field bag pretty much sucks. I would give a good word to the dr680 for a very decent bag recorder. In fact, if you are only needing two of the six channels, you might get by just fine with the dr680 and no mixer at all. It isn't as good as having that nice SD interface, but the preamps are much better than the dr100, and with only two channels in use, the controls are good nuff. This might be true of the HDP2 also, but I haven't used that recorder.

Grant
 
You can get a Tascam DR-680 for $500 and have a Busman mod done on it. The mic pre's will absolutely sound as good as an SD recorder and the noise floor is as good or better than a 702. It has 6 seperate tracks and mixes down to an additional stero 2 tracks. When you buy a mixerlater you will then have an excellent multi track bit bucket that goes far beyond a two track portable recorder. this is my intermediary solution. If I need to pipe in a DSLR mixer solution in the meantime to have a few wxtra mixing pots, I can use my Juicedlink or my Fostex DC-R302. Thus I can stay small and on camera and/or hand off a mixing bag solution to someone else. The Tascam is not as solid as an SD device, you dont have the faders and limiters of a full scale mixer and it is more subject to RF intereference, but no other inexpensive solution comes even close to it once it has been modded.

In terms of mic's, the industry standards are the senny 416 's for outside work, but a Rode NTG3 is very similar. For inside stuff the top is the Schoeps cmc641 or the sennheiser mkh50. What is important though is that you have several mics based on the circumstances. Something for exteriors and something for the interiors, even if it is only an Octava m-012 ( which I love by the way). I chose a used senn mkh60 for exteriors because it is extremely forgiving for beginning boom pole work, with very low self noise and is like an updated 416. I use a Michael Joly modded Octava for adding warmth and bass to a voice if I need it, and am about to purchase a sennheiser mkh50 for interiors when I need a little extra reach.
 
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Using any handheld recorder for actual field work with mic attached to it sucks, I completely agree. I've heard about the mod to the 680 but the main thing that concerns me with the 680 is the not so easy fader controls, along with the not SD quality limiters or preamps. However, the Busman mod definitely sounds really good to my ears, so if I did go the 680 route I'd definitely get that done.

As far as mics go, that's definitely something I'll be looking at after I get a better mixer or preamp combo. In the mean time though I usually don't have much of a problem bumming one off someone else.
 
Fwiw, the dr680 sounds pretty good box stock with no mods. Whether you do something like this should depend on the quality level that you want to play.

Grant
 
One more question, if any of you had a choice between a Mixpre-D or a 680 with the mod, which would you chose? That's pretty much what I've narrowed it down to.
 
The orignal DR-100 could not handle a +4dB (nominal) input level. The upgraded DR-100/mkII can
If production has the budget for an Alexa, they should be able to afford pro sound gear... BTW, the Alexa is about the only digital cine camera that can record decent audio if needed.
 
MagicMountainMan said:
To answer questions, I plan on using it for mostly semi professional narrative work. Time code really depends on the project, at this point it's 50/50. Camera varies as well from project to project, anywhere from an Alexa to a 5d to a 35mm. I personally have a GH2. I would also say that 95% of the time I wouldn't need more than 2 channels.
Click to expand...

Just wondering what semi-professional narrative work is?

Alexa, 35mm film?

You must have very nice parents!
 
MagicMountainMan said:
One more question, if any of you had a choice between a Mixpre-D or a 680 with the mod, which would you chose? That's pretty much what I've narrowed it down to.
Click to expand...

I've got the DR-680 and run it with a SD 552. I haven't run a MixPre-D into it but I have run a MixPre and a 302 into it. I've also compared my 552/680 combo to a friends Busman moded 680. The stock 680 with the 552 front sounds quite a bit better when compared side by side. I'm pretty sure the MixPre with the stock 680 would be very similar. If you are planning on doing work on a professional level you need to have a mixer. The DR-680 is a very good sounding recorder out of the box and could be used as is on many productions except for one thing. The controls are not conducive to work on a set. Primarily setting levels for individual channels requires you to push two buttons.

Having a true mixer with good limiters in case you need them will be much more than worth the price of admission. You can find a used MixPre for $500. you won't be a full 6 channels but if almost all of your recording will be on 1 or 2 channels you'll be fine. The downside is that you now have two devices to bring with you. A couple of things. bring lots of batteries because the DR-680 eats them fast. Get a good bag. I use a body harness with mine but the 552 /680 combo weighs quite a bit more than even a 302/680 would. And, I agree that a decent mic selection is very important. I prefer the Sanken CS-3e for a shotgun mic and indoor for me the Schoeps is my mic of choice for most dialogue. The AT 4053b is a cheaper alternative to the Schoeps that does a good job indoors. I would test several mics before buying and see which ones you like.
 
David W. Jones said:
Just wondering what semi-professional narrative work is?

Alexa, 35mm film?

You must have very nice parents!
Click to expand...

Sure, my parents are nice and all, but I'm not sure what that has to do with it as I buy all of my equipment. ;)

And to answer it all, I'm in film school at CSUN. Commence groaning and how it isn't worth it blah blah blah. This year I'm working on some projects that are 16mm and next year the senior thesis projects are 35mm, one is an Alexa grant where Arri gives us everything for free, and the leftover projects fight for the rest of the equipment, whether or not that be a RED or another 35mm.

Our equipment rooms do have a ton of audio gear it's just hard to access and rent for any amount of time and I'd love to have some nice audio gear of my own as I consider it a worthwhile investment.

And GLow, thank you! You answered exactly what I've been asking! I'll definitely be looking into getting a MixPre or MixPre-D. Possibly a DR 40 or a DR 100MII as a bit bucket since my OG DR 100 can't take line over XLR.
 
I would agree with most everything glow said.

As I said earlier, some of you decision may depend on what level you're playing at. Fwiw, a tekkeon can power a 680 and mixer for a day. Doing line in on an original dr100 works fine, you might want to gaff tape the 1/8 plug if it is a critical shot.

Grant
 
I ended up getting a MixPre-D and it's shipping now! I'm not going to replace my Tascam Dr-100 yet (don't have any money now) so I was curious to know if it would be better to run an XLR from the MixPre-D (mic level) or tape out to line in on the DR-100?
 
If you go line in, you will avoid the dr100 preamps (mostly, probably), and make more benefit of the entirely wonderful preamps on the Mixpre. You might just find no reason to upgrade if you can live with the dr100 form factor.

Grant
 
I use the MixPre-D most of the time with the TAPE OUT going into the LINE IN on a Sony PCM-M10 that tucks into the front of my Porta Brace bag.

Comparing the TAPE OUT with the LINE OUT I really can't hear any difference, with the noise-floor being limited to the -75 dB RMS of the Sony recorder.

I would not want to run the TAPE OUT with anything longer than the 8 inch cable I am using because nothing locks with 3.5mm mini-jacks.

One of the reasons I run it this way is so I can still run the XLR outputs to the camera if I want to. ( for speed and convenience I sometimes use camera audio over the external recorder )
 
GLow said:
I've got the DR-680 and run it with a SD 552. I haven't run a MixPre-D into it but I have run a MixPre and a 302 into it. I've also compared my 552/680 combo to a friends Busman moded 680. The stock 680 with the 552 front sounds quite a bit better when compared side by side. I'm pretty sure the MixPre with the stock 680 would be very similar. If you are planning on doing work on a professional level you need to have a mixer. The DR-680 is a very good sounding recorder out of the box and could be used as is on many productions except for one thing. The controls are not conducive to work on a set. Primarily setting levels for individual channels requires you to push two buttons.

Having a true mixer with good limiters in case you need them will be much more than worth the price of admission. You can find a used MixPre for $500. you won't be a full 6 channels but if almost all of your recording will be on 1 or 2 channels you'll be fine. The downside is that you now have two devices to bring with you. A couple of things. bring lots of batteries because the DR-680 eats them fast. Get a good bag. I use a body harness with mine but the 552 /680 combo weighs quite a bit more than even a 302/680 would. And, I agree that a decent mic selection is very important. I prefer the Sanken CS-3e for a shotgun mic and indoor for me the Schoeps is my mic of choice for most dialogue. The AT 4053b is a cheaper alternative to the Schoeps that does a good job indoors. I would test several mics before buying and see which ones you like.
Click to expand...

Interesting, could you be more specific about how the stock sounded better than the modded version?
What I found is that previous to the mod, you could only use it in High gain mode, after the mod I found the low gain mode bright enough that it could easily be pulled up without having to deal with an excessive noise floor. However, I also believe that the newer mods have something changed when phantom power is used. Lastly, my understanding is that the mod is for the mic pre-amps, NOT for the line-in, which theoretically shouldn't change. So the mod is interesting for folks who will not use a mixer up front. Otherwise it's a moot point. It strikes me that the variation you found might have as much to do with the year of the machine and the actual QC of Tascam. Variations might be a real possibility on that front.
 
Unlike most budget recorders, the 680's line mode does not send an internally attenuated line level signal back through the mic preamp.
Not sure about the DR-40 and 100MkII.. Tascam hasn't responded to technical inquiry and I have not seen a schematic or block diagram
 
Got my MixPre-D and have been playing around with it for a few days. Definitely a nice, professional piece of equipment. Just the sheer flexibility of the unit is really really incredible. When I read that it was a 'tank' I don't really think I got what that meant until I actually received the unit. The thing is a solid beast.

Rick R said:
Unlike most budget recorders, the 680's line mode does not send an internally attenuated line level signal back through the mic preamp.
Not sure about the DR-40 and 100MkII.. Tascam hasn't responded to technical inquiry and I have not seen a schematic or block diagram
Click to expand...

With my DR-100MkI it seems to me that the line in does not get sent through any mic preamps. Not 100% sure, but there's no way to set the gain stage when using line in.

I have another question for all of you now. What, in your opinion, is the best indoor dialog mic on a budget. I'm looking to get one for personal use, not so much professional gigs so I'm not looking to spend another $1000.

Mics that I know do well in this 'budget' category: Oktava MK-012 and the Audio Technica 4053b. I listened to the Joly Modded MK-012 and it does sound very nice, but I've also read a lot of people complain about all of its internal handling noise.

Oh and the reason I keep posting (updating) this thread 1) so I don't make a new one every time I have a question and 2) to help those out who may be reading this down the line and are in a similar position as I am. I always hate reading threads where everyone gives their suggestions on what to get and the OP never comes back and says anything about what they got and how they like it.
 
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