Update on 16 GB and 32 GB Cards

No, you're all mistaken. I heard from reliable sources its coming out at 2020, at the same time as the cineporter... (Spec-comm, please take this with a grain of salt- just a bit of humour! I know yhou guys are working on this night and day- but it just felt...funny... :) )
 
3097? its $3097 - that is what a 32 GB card is going to cost.....through 2008, if you can get your hands on one (let alone two).

P2 cards are a great technology but not at the price point and the limited capacity for 1080 HD. 16 or 32 GB cards will not address the price point issue.
 
You don't know that. They haven't announced pricing yet. The 32GB cards should probably hit the streets at less than $2000; Panasonic's previously stated that they're aiming at/around that price point for whenever new capacity cards come out. Which means 16GB cards might be under $1000 by the end of this year. Which puts 8GB cards under $500 by the end of the year.
 
Yeah, I don't know, I was just joking based on the year 3097. Thanks for clarifying Barry.

At $2000, that is $62.50 US per GB for a 32 GB card that only gives you 32 minutes (if you are lucky) at 1080. To cover a 90 minute concert, that requres 3 cards and is $6000 per camera (ie. what the firestore can hold now for $1700). For a multi camera 90 minute shoot, that is $18,000 for 3 cameras. Yes, solid state technology is re-usable and may save you money relative to tape but my point is that it is very expensive relative to its usefulness at 1080 (especially when the cameras will be $4000 or less per camera by end of year given that you can buy them now for $4200 without a P2 card...).

The new codec may make it more affordable but even if it triples capacity at 1080 24PA, it is still $2000 for a 32GB card for 96 minutes. That is $20.83 US per Gig when the Firestore is running at $17 per GB.

When you look at total cost of ownership, I really don't see how the larger P2 cards and new codec provide greater value than FireStore or recording directly to laptop at 1080.

At 720 the 32 G cards become more affordable but I doubt it is less than $30 per GB.

When the P2 cards are selling for around $20 per GB, I think the cost justifies the investment. If he Cineporter ships or FireStores drop in price, then this target price will also have to drop for me.

I'm most interested in whether the FireStore price drops when the 16 and 32 are released. If they go under $1100, I will be buying 3.... (that is $11 GB).

Right now, $1400 including DV Rack ($450) will get you a Windows laptop that has 160 GB HD with 140 GB available for recording from the HVX200 (that is $10 GB). And you have a monitor (and yes you can easily flip the screen on a laptop so that your redrock based image will be right side up....). And you can use that laptop for editing, you save time on transfers and you can use if for other computing purposes.

So to summarize costs of P2 for filmmakers shooting at 1080:
  • 32 GB P2 Cards = $62.50 per GB if $2000
  • 16 GB P2 Cards = $62.50 per GB if $1000
  • 8 GB P2 Cards = $62.50 per GB if $500
  • 100 GB FireStore = $17 per GB if $1700
  • Laptop + SW with 160 GB HD = $10 per GB (assume $1400 for laptop & SW - I actually got it cheaper than this recently).
P2 is an amazing technology for SD, an expensive labor intensive technology for 720 HD but an overpriced, non-viable technology for 1080.
 
treefilm, don't you think that math is a tad out of whack? it's 62.50 per GB only if you don't reuse it. The more you use it, the more financially viable it becomes. It's a hefty price to pay out of the gate, sure. But if you work hard enough, you can make it well worth the $$.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I see what you're getting at with your comparisons. But for a lot of people, that kind of workflow just simply wouldn't work.
 
Barry_Green said:
You don't know that. They haven't announced pricing yet. The 32GB cards should probably hit the streets at less than $2000; Panasonic's previously stated that they're aiming at/around that price point for whenever new capacity cards come out. Which means 16GB cards might be under $1000 by the end of this year. Which puts 8GB cards under $500 by the end of the year.
Click to expand...

I still think this is redundant, Might be $1000 at the end of the year just seems unlikely and unacceptable after we were promised LAST year for higher capacity cards and didn't get them. And paying more for these cards is almost a slap in the face for obsolete technology that will eventually only somehow be supported by Panasonic since newer laptops are all but extinguishing the idea of PCMCIA. By the time 8GB cards are $500 there won't be a hardware platform to support them anymore. I wouldn't doubt in fact if this was all some ploy by Panasonic to get even more money out of the consumers by utilizing a technology that is great for workflow, but soon won't be supported anywhere else but by Panasonic. It's aggravating to say the least and hardly what I would call "Good news" on the part of Panasonic.
 
I really think that's stretching things - pcmcia as a technology may be increasingly rare to find built in on a laptop, but that doesn't indicate you won't be able to transfer your footage. There are always alternatives such as the duel system adapter or the panasonic drives, or the one from spec-comm, or even using the camera as a drive. I too am dissapointed that we still have to wait till may for only the 16gb cards, but for me, shooting feature films [not weddings or docs] an 80 minute load time is unheard of [two 16gb cards 720pn]. I remember shooting 16mm with daylight spools, that was like 2.5 mins.

Mark.
 
But that's precisely my point, myself like many panasonic users are in love with the workflow behind slapping these cards into a laptop and working that way. I dont like the idea of having to switch to some other workflow, It's not to say that I wouldn't, I love tha camera, but I just can't help but feel that what was once a really romantic idea is coming to an end for the way I prefer to use the cards. And the price point seems fair but in the aspect that all this should have taken place already and it hasn't. I can't but feel that Panasonic waited on the release of these higher capacity cards for the use in these newer cameras as a selling point for them. Why would I blow $14,000 on something like that using obsolete P2 technology, when I could just eventually buy RED. Even the idea of the succsessor to Sony's HVR Z is sounding good as im sure they will have thier crap together by then. Im sorry to sound so negative, I really do love the HVX, Im just really frustrated by thier train of thought on this :(
 
Kamikaze,
I know that laptops are moving away from the PCMCIA standard, but even though the new express card standard had been approved for a couple of years, its not till right a few months ago that they started appearing on laptops. So was panasonic supposed to just hold off until then?

Isn't panasonic working on some P2 to Express Card adapter? I thought I heard rumors about that but I might be wrong.

There is also this one
Heck, if what they are saying is correct : Data rate limited to express card standard limited by PCMCIA Card application, this little adapter might actually make dumping P2 cards to hard drive faster than on a PCMCIA laptop. Express Card slots are PCI express right? so that's a Theoretical 3gb/s transfer rate.
Provided the P2 card can handle it...which I dont see how it wouldnt, its not like it has moving parts, anyone care to share their knowledge on this?

And I really don't see the big problem with using an older laptop to capture the footage, its not like a laptop capable of dumping P2 cards to a HD will be hard to find for the next 3 years.

I also find your $14,000 vs RED comparison a bit like apples and oranges. I keep seeing threads about the Red and how its going to compete with the HVX and all this. The're not in the same market! the kind of workflow that is required for 4:4:4 uncompressed HD is much different than the HVX. A bare bones HVX set up can be hand for ~7k, a very good set up for ~12-14k. I dont think you'll be able to pull off a barebones set up with the RED for bellow 25k. Hell a decent lens alone will run you that much.

Anyways I think what I am trying to say is Don't loose heart. Panasonic is comitted to the P2 format and there will be support for it for years to come. Will it last forever? Probably not, but then again, does anything? With the coming PCMCIA to ExpressCard Adapters, I dont see why you would have to move away from dropping your cards to your laptop.
 
HVX200 is a great camera well worth $5995.00. the MXF wrap of the format is future froof for complex shoots and edits with all the information a filmmaker needs.
The p2 cards are great technology but seriously are worth about $80 for each 4GB card and about $200 for an 8GB card max.
the firetore is worth about $400.00 max.
the is nothing extra-ordinary about the technology other than the fact that its european made. even iphones and complex cellphones cost less than that overpriced spinning drive device. I dare Focus to make availabe the source code, you will be able to pick up a similar more complex device on the market for about $200.00.

the M2, brevis etc are way overpriced. I am sure a lot of effort in R&D went into creating these tools which are pretty much copies of the p+s -mini35.

In the film industry there are many products that are rightly priced cameras, film stock etc. but lenses, sticks, mounts, matteboxes etc are way, way overpriced. But there is a good demand for all these products, considering the industries profit margins. manufacturers will keep the markups pretty high till my good friends in Asia come along.

the costs of indy/ guerilla filmmaking is going up from the used car priced margins it was in the early 90's.

my 2 cents.

I will be buying a firestore for $1800 this weekend, dang!!!. despite the price its still the best option out there to make our hvx films to day.
 
Kamikaze1213, I completely understand that you're a bit 'salty' about the "Good News" here but I think that your aggravation is experiencing a bit of tunnel vision here. First; Last year's promise of higher capacity cards not being delivered should not be as big a dissapointment to us because this was the first (Beta) run with this new capture technology. Now that they're 'out of the gate', and have a learning curve to work with, this (or any other) company should evolve so that we CAN hold them 'accountable' for future statements. Second; Competiton is a GREAT THING for us consumers! As the technology from the FS-100 gets 'better', the CinePorter promising to be an outstanding option to the HVX-200, and the addition of HD Rack evolving, P2 prices will, by default, have to be competitive. I think that a recent example of this happening is the new $14,000 HPX-500. Don't you think that the coming of RED had 'SOMETHING' to do with the 'competitive pricing here? Just a thought. Anyway lets relax, take a broader view, and wait a few months and lets see what happens. I think that great times are to be had by us all. :thumbsup:
 
the hpx500 is worth $5995 same as the hvx. red is worth $50,000 easily. but the maker of red is like us he built the camera for what he thinks its worth. At thaT PRICE YOU CAN PICK RED ONE AT YOU RENTAL HOUSE AT I6MM PRICES.

now the red cine lenses are way over priced. Iwill still rent them cause they will be fabulous.
 
R&D is why its expensive. Go make a P2 card.... See how difficult it is. Go make a fully functional Firestore.... See how difficult it is. Stop complaining please. Enjoy the miracle of technology you do have. a camera that costs 6000. That shoots 1080P. 720P. and had viariable framerates. gotta problem with that , go shoot S16 for a few shoots and see how quick you run back, praising P2 and how cheap it is.
 
Danny D. I think that TimurCivan is dead on point with this one. He's got the big picture. Besides, I think that you're missing my point here; I'm saying that new stuff being released won't be as picture perfect in the beginning as it will be 'down the road', and competition will drive prices down which makes things better for us consumers in the long run. What we think is overpriced, underpriced, or appropriately priced is irrelevant if someone as yourself is still willing to pay for a product or services.....period. Again, thank goodness for competition; we have the choice to participate, pass, or play w/ someone else's goodies. Agreed?
 
I think a major problem is the pricing of SONYs XDCam. Those cartridges are much much more affordable at a longer running time. I don´t see why Panasonic would increase the price. In todays tech-world you keep the price and double the capacity. You can buy 1GB SD cards for 9,90 now (a brand product 19,90). If they would charge 2.000 now for 16GB they will not sell IMO. The 1000 - 1200 pricetag of 8GB was ok to start and pay back R&D. But now it is time to flood the market. I understand Panasonic uses its monopol here. But they have to ask themselves if they could help P2 to get a stronger marketshare with cheaper P2.
 
There is always a balance with any product. I am no fan of P2, and I make no bones about that. But I understand that some people like to work with it. But what you have to remember is that the balance is that XDCAM cameras are more expensive to buy, but have less expensive recording media, while P2 cameras are cheaper to buy with more expensive recording. This comparison is good for comparing the full sized cameras. But the HVX200 and the XDCAM HD are in different markets. Someone who is thinking of buying an HVX200 isn't going to look at an XDCAM HD as an alternative choice because of the additional costs of a decent lens, heavier (and hence much more expensive) tripod, battery system etc. Buying a shoulder mount camera is much more than just purchasing the camera body, unless you already own another full sized camera.

As far as P2 shoulder mount cameras go, almost all of them are owned by big media and news companies with a full workflow implementation. So the cost of P2 cards isn't as much of an issue for them.

For other companies to make P2 cards would require that there was guaranteed large amounts of sales. But the issue there is that people and companies aren't buying loads of P2 cards. They buy what they need in general when they pirchase the camera, and then stick with that for a while. This alone makes it difficult to make cheaper. Especially when new capacities are brought out. Combine that with the fact that P2 cameras are not around in anywhere near the same abundence as digital stills cameras means that it is doubly hard to make cheap.
 
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