Underwhelmed

dregenthal

dregenthal

Veteran
Oh for cluck sakes (Panasonic)!
Is that all you got?

I just read all the per-NAB announcements that Barry took the time and trouble to post which basically mean "nothing for me."
Don't take my disappointment as negativity because it's not.
I'm in a different class than many of you . . . What I mean is that I'm the kind of person that looks forward to new entries in the sub-10k price point. Because even when jobs are a little off I can generally rationalize the purchase and at least have it pay for itself in reasonably short order. Gawd I miss Jan!

I was so sure Panasonic was going to surprise everyone with a new entry that I sold my AF100 last month.
(I guess if all else fails I can step up to the 100A because it's a cinch that if there isn't something new coming there'll be deals to be had post-NAB to stimulate what has evidently been lackluster sales of the "A" model).

Just maybe Panasonic is practicing what Barry suggested in that other thread (keeping their mouths shut, then announcing when hey have something to deliver)? Man, I hope so. I simply can't fathom, given the progress that GoPro has made, and BlackMagic (despite the unfortunate delays) over the past year that Panasonic would sit back and watch the competition spring from the starting gate, and take no action . . .

I'm just thinking out loud and, like everyone else, speculating . . .
I guess we'll know "the rest of the story" in another few weeks.

I got my fingers crossed for you Panasonic.
 
dregenthal said:
Just maybe Panasonic is practicing what Barry suggested in that other thread (keeping their mouths shut, then announcing when hey have something to deliver)? Man, I hope so. I simply can't fathom, given the progress that GoPro has made, and BlackMagic (despite the unfortunate delays) over the past year that Panasonic would sit back and watch the competition spring from the starting gate, and take no action . . .
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Panasonic's in bad shape financially. They're probably leaving market segments that have proven unprofitable. Rumor has it that they will even exit the plasma TV market in 2014!
 
I like Panasonic. I love the AF100 more and more. I just wonder if this niche is good for Panasonic. Did they sell enough AF100s to make it worthwhile to continue in the big sensor/below 10K space? What makes money for them?

The thing is there really is no immediate competition for the AF100. Not with those features at that price point but we want more. I think that the microP2 announcements point to a path for Panasonic BUT I wonder if they will go the full distance to 2K/4K raw which is important. I think any new camera has to do provide easy workflow internal 10bit 4:2:2. I think that's next year for Panasonic whether they provide a raw is a stretch. This would not be a sub $10K camera. I wish Panasonic made the Sony F5. I'd pay $16K for that.

The ground keeps shifting. Will we all need 2K/4K Raw? I guess so.
 
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It will be interesting to see if they have anything to show. I agree with the financial point and think they put a brave face on when it comes to the AF-100. It should have taken the segment by storm but they have been the most for sale camera in the marketplace for the past year or so. It just did not capture the hearts and minds like it was thought to do. So I would not be surprised if that market is viewed as "challenging".

With the loss of the high end 2/3" money train it is probably a different landscape. I think their best bet is to be working on a RAW video camera that would be under $10,000 and have all of the bells & whistles. But the processing power might not be there yet for it to be a success (in camera or post).
 
Don't forget the AF100 was a surprise showing at NAB in 2010. No one expected it. I remember seeing it in its glass case and being totally shocked. Everything that year was 3-D this, 3-D that, and then this little gem appears. The future of HD cameras was born at that moment.
Don't give up on Panasonic just yet.
And the new HPX5000 is a very impressive camera.
 
Tzedekh said:
Didn't they announce the HVX200 before NAB?
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Yes, the HVX200 was leaked before NAB (not fully announced, they left out key details such as that it was the first affordable 1080/24p camera; they only announced it as 720 initially). But to be fair, that was 8 years ago.

They also introduced the HPX300 prior to NAB, that was in a February IIRC.

They frequently do have something that they reserve to announce until the show itself. Typically all the big companies will hold a pre-NAB press conference; this is a holdover from the days when people actually cared about printed material (CES Daily, etc) so the magazines needed lead time to have the stories printed in the issues that they hand out at the show. Nowadays with instant dissemination of electronic information, it's far less vital. Even so, the tradition has been to hold something back for release on show day, so the pre-NAB press release package has rarely been "the whole story".
 
Bassman2003 said:
It will be interesting to see if they have anything to show. I agree with the financial point and think they put a brave face on when it comes to the AF-100. It should have taken the segment by storm but they have been the most for sale camera in the marketplace for the past year or so. It just did not capture the hearts and minds like it was thought to do. So I would not be surprised if that market is viewed as "challenging".
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It didn't help that they stuck with 8-bit HD-SDI and still haven't really fixed it.

With the loss of the high end 2/3" money train it is probably a different landscape. I think their best bet is to be working on a RAW video camera that would be under $10,000 and have all of the bells & whistles. But the processing power might not be there yet for it to be a success (in camera or post).
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I'm not sure there's all that much money in that segment. BMD and Digital Bolex have proved that it can be done for less than $5K, and I firmly believe that had Red stuck to its original designs, the 3K Scarlet would've been available at the same price point as the other two, but possibly in 2009. Problem is, Red, BMD, and Digital Bolex are smaller companies than Panasonic and can move more nimbly. To survive, Panny needs to refocus on more profitable markets, not one where the sale of a few thousand units can be considered a large volume.
 
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Okay, to address the original poster's frustration -- I'm not surprised at all that there's nothing new in that price segment. These companies are very predictable -- I was able to predict the model name and release date of the C100 almost three years in advance, because these companies hold to very obvious patterns. And Panasonic's pattern is to refresh their small-chip lineup on about three-year cycle, and their large-chip ENG lineup on about a three year cycle. We just got a whole raft of small-chip cameras -- the HPX250/AC160/AC130/AC90. So now it's the big-chip camera's turns. The HPX3100 was introduced back in 2010. The big chip lineup is overdue for an overhaul, and so this year it gets it.

Disappointment can only be attributed to mismatched expectations. People were looking for an AF200 mere months after the AF100 was introduced -- and that was never, ever going to happen. People said the AF100 was discontinued a year ago(!) and yet there's an AF100A out now, right on schedule. It'll be a year before there's any chance of an updated/revised model of that camera. That's just their pattern.

You can argue (and quite persuasively) that the market has changed and that the old typical patterns aren't working in today's marketplace, sure. But that doesn't change the fact that the company is still working on its traditional model. This year will see the PX5000 and the HPX600 line launched and developed. If there's going to be developments in the small-chip lineup, that's probably at least a year away. If there's going to be developments in the large sensor lineup, that's likely a year away.

Now, they could shock us all and introduce a Panasonic version of the BMC or Scarlet, I mean, who knows... but if they did, it would be very much outside their established pattern, and so therefore I don't expect it and will not be surprised if it doesn't happen.
 
Panisonic has a gem with the af100, they just have to modernize it a bit, a higher bit rate, evf placement, better dr, low light ability, and sharpness( newly developed sensor, processor combo).Thats the only issue I see with it, It would be so much easier to re-work the AF100, then to develop an entire new model, All the other features kickbutt, what else does the Af100 need? Im pretty sure that would boost sales to the M4/3RDS lovers.
 
Barry_Green said:
If there's going to be developments in the large sensor lineup, that's likely a year away.
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Are you talking about a new AF100? Then you´re probably right.
But the pattern doesn´t say a new and different model couldn´t be introduced, does it? ;)
I still can´t believe that there won´t be sth above the AF100.
Sony has the FS100, FS700, F3, F5, F55 (and even the F65).
Canon has the C100, 1D-C, C300, C500.
The AF100 was a great "early bird" for entering/starting/testing the "large sensor" market, why should they stay the only company with only ONE offering in this segment?
Still keeping my fingers crossed, come on Panny, sell me those microP2 cards along with an AF500 !!!
 
I think people forget Panasonic was ahead of the curve on the "affordable" large sensor/actual video camera body when they made the AF100. Everyone else followed with Sony coming out with the FS100, Canon MUCH later with the C100, and now we have BMC and DBolex doing slightly different things- Smaller sensors and no where near the functionality of an AF100, but pushing the envelope of the price point by offering raw.

I hope Panasonic does something new soon, but people should remember they actually have a good record of paving new territory... (The DVX, HVX, AF100 are all proof of that) Even the GH1/2/3 and their bridge cameras from the consumer division are ahead of the curve.
 
Barry_Green said:
(snip . . .) Now, they could shock us all and introduce a Panasonic version of the BMC or Scarlet, I mean, who knows... but if they did, it would be very much outside their established pattern, and so therefore I don't expect it and will not be surprised if it doesn't happen.
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And that's pretty much what I'm talking about.

I fully agree that there are patterns . . . and then there are "patterns" i.e., The HPX370 came (much to the disappointment of some HPX300 folks) fairly close on the heels of the 300.
And sure, Panasonic came with an improved AF100 in the "A" model but it's proven to be more of a "splat" than a "splash."
(Seriously, why the cluck would they have wasted their time on that?).
In all honesty it looks like I may have jumped the gun by parting ways with my AF-100 . . . a mistake I will have to live with (temporarily . . . if all else fails I will buy an AF100A).
Barry your batting average has been astounding but you are the exception, for the rest of us I think there is some pretty thin real estate between "expectations" and "a wild ass guess."
Sure, I'll be a little bummed if there isn't something for us sub-10k people but I'm still a fan of Panasonic . . . if they don't get it done now I have little doubt that they will later . . .
It's just a bit hard (for me) to swallow, with the wake up call from last year (BMCC) that they might have done better to pursue something other than the AF100-A.

As an aside to this I gotta say, my opinion only, the throngs of people driven to part ways with their AF100's wasn't because the camera wasn't capable of meeting expectations, rather it was (in many cases) people unwilling to invest the time to learn how to operate the equipment. The mere fact that you have multiple lens choices (each with their own set of Idiosyncrasies) made it difficult for some to wrap their heads around the product. It still is, far and away, the best value at the price point (for what it does). A lot of folks did the same thing by jumping on DSLR's (and the bevy of work-a-rounds required) and, not knowing what they were doing produced some pretty fuzzy footage and/or dropped 'em and moved on to something else. Mastery . . . not something that comes in the box.

Anyhow, I live in hope . . . you go Panasonic!
 
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Barry_Green said:
8-bit SDI is the standard in the industry and no other major manufacturer has "fixed" it -- the FS700 is 2x the price and still has 8-bit SDI.
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Small justification for not including it. Sony has it in the F3, F5, and F55 -- in other words, they have a range of large-sensor cameras. Plus, for what it's worth, the 4K FS700 upgrade will purportedly do 12-bit raw. At this point, Panasonic has the AF101, which doesn't do real 10-bit, despite a fair amount of clamoring for it over the past two-plus years. But they could just as well have added AVC-LongG and accomplished 4:2:2 10-bit recording without going to external recorders, except that because the codec is technically part of the AVC-Ultra family, it's restricted to P2, despite LongG's low data rate (currently comparable to AVC's).
 
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I am sure Barry's right, that we won't see another digital cinema camera from Panasonic until next year at this time. I'm working with the AF100 and it's doing fine. The BMCC never got me, basically because after shooting with the AF100, I didn't want to work around the camera. Lots do, with DSLRs and with good results, which is great for them but I'm spoiled. I love the xlr balanced line/mic inputs, waveform monitor, zebras, focus in red, the lens mount, spot monitor... all of it, it's just a well thought out layout and feature set, reliable as any.

I'm waiting. I can go this year with the AF100 for what I have in the pipeline. If anything, I'd pounce on a used F3. That's a nice camera. I wonder if Panasonic will ever offer a raw option... with all the flat footage kicking around, it's going to be an issue.
 
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