Underwhelmed

Heh, I just use my HVX200 as the B cam and audio recorder now for interviews….I set up my GH2 and just roll both cameras at once…..
Why can't Panasonic put the Gh2 sensor in a cam form similar to the HVX??? And no the AF100 is not the answer.
 
\

At a significant cost increase over the af-100.
Correct. My point is that Panasonic doesn't have a range, so it doesn't offer feature upgrades at any price point.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the $3K BMC has a 10-bit 3G-SDI port, so obviously price need not be the deciding factor.
 
Last edited:
My gut feeling is that Panasonic will indeed show something at NAB. They're not about to underwhelm two years in a row me thinks.
 
You know, sometimes I wish Panny would get their act together and rethink their strategies to better suit the market.
Competitors like Canon, for example, have embraced their DSLRs being used alongside pro cameras, and integrated the technology across their pro and consumer departments. Yet Panny's rep at NAB previously shot down anyone asking about the GH2 or its rumored successor. It was as if the pro camera department didn't want to acknowledge that the GH2 existed or could even compete with their other offerings. Meanwhille, I've heard many an AF100 shooter lament that they wish they had the GH2's sensor in an AF100 body.

But then, I look at Canon's lineup and how they integrated technology across their offerings at a price point per crippled feature. The variation in price from an entry level Rebel to the 1DC, and how everything in between is so close but just doesn't quite get it, etc... and suddenly, I think we're better off with Panasonic as we know them currently. :)
 
Sony has it in the F3, F5, and F55.
Yes, they do. At $15,000 to $30,000. The AF100 is a third to an eighth of that cost. You have to consider class to class, or you'll never be able to make reasonable comparisons. And class to class, the closest thing they have to the AF100 is the FS100, and it's 8-bit. And at twice the price, the FS700, is still 8-bit. Under $10k, it's an 8-bit world with very, very, very few exceptions.

Plus, for what it's worth, the 4K FS700 upgrade will purportedly do 12-bit raw.
Yes, at a combined price point of $15,000. Or 4x the price of an AF100A. Which means, again, you're comparing totally different classes of products.

At this point, Panasonic has the AF101, which doesn't do real 10-bit, despite a fair amount of clamoring for it over the past two-plus years.
True. But Canon has the C100, which doesn't do real 10-bit, in fact it does only 8-bit. And the C300, which does only 8-bit. And JVC has their entire lineup which does only 8-bit. And Sony has their entire NEX lineup, from the FS700 on down, that only do 8-bit.

Like it or not, it's an 8-bit world in this price bracket -- at least among the major manufacturers.

But they could just as well have added AVC-LongG and accomplished 4:2:2 10-bit recording without going to external recorders, except that because the codec is technically part of the AVC-Ultra family, it's restricted to P2, despite LongG's low data rate (currently comparable to AVC's).
Well, maybe they could have, and maybe they couldn't have. Maybe the internal processing engine is based around 8 bit, and so maybe it would never have been an option to go 10-bit. You don't know. I don't know. I think that as far as the market is concerned, we would have dearly loved to see the AF100A have AVC Long-G and 4:2:2 10-bit on-board! That would have been a big step forward and would have given them a big competitive edge. Why didn't they? I don't know. Either it's because they're painfully blind (which I doubt), or there were reasons they just couldn't do it.
 
I think that as far as the market is concerned, we would have dearly loved to see the AF100A have AVC Long-G and 4:2:2 10-bit on-board! That would have been a big step forward and would have given them a big competitive edge. Why didn't they? I don't know. Either it's because they're painfully blind (which I doubt), or there were reasons they just couldn't do it.

I bow to your knowledge of Panasonic corporate, but maybe the professional video camera division is just painfully conservative rather than painfully blind, the net effect will be the same for them in terms of market share. Everything I see from Panasonic over the past 2 years says they have very limited interest in the "digital cinema" market, the whole RED/Sony/ARRI/Canon thing scares them. I really have no confidence that Panasonic intends to follow-up on the AF100 with a meaningful and competitive revision, but I've been wrong before, if there is nothing in this NAB I think it is a signal.
 
You know, sometimes I wish Panny would get their act together and rethink their strategies to better suit the market.
Competitors like Canon, for example, have embraced their DSLRs being used alongside pro cameras, and integrated the technology across their pro and consumer departments. Yet Panny's rep at NAB previously shot down anyone asking about the GH2 or its rumored successor. It was as if the pro camera department didn't want to acknowledge that the GH2 existed or could even compete with their other offerings. Meanwhille, I've heard many an AF100 shooter lament that they wish they had the GH2's sensor in an AF100 body.

But then, I look at Canon's lineup and how they integrated technology across their offerings at a price point per crippled feature. The variation in price from an entry level Rebel to the 1DC, and how everything in between is so close but just doesn't quite get it, etc... and suddenly, I think we're better off with Panasonic as we know them currently. :)

I am looking at the Blackmagic cameras. It is perfect for my kind of work. I have made the GH2 work so the Blackmagic should work.
I don't do ENG run and gun stuff anymore. I do scripted agency pieces or produce my own work. I will wait to see what rolls out here at NAB
before making any decisions however.
 
I bow to your knowledge of Panasonic corporate, but maybe the professional video camera division is just painfully conservative rather than painfully blind, the net effect will be the same for them in terms of market share. Everything I see from Panasonic over the past 2 years says they have very limited interest in the "digital cinema" market, the whole RED/Sony/ARRI/Canon thing scares them. I really have no confidence that Panasonic intends to follow-up on the AF100 with a meaningful and competitive revision, but I've been wrong before, if there is nothing in this NAB I think it is a signal.
Y'know, that's entirely possible too. Maybe they consider the market oversaturated with offerings, such that there isn't much point in them chasing after it? I don't know. I know their little cameras are quite excellent, so they've really done well there. And they must believe there's still a market to pursue with the 2/3" products. Maybe they're not that interested in chasing after a congested market like digital cinema? At least, in the higher price brackets. I still say the AF100A is untouched in its price point, there's nothing out there like it, they really do have the low-cost pro camera segment to themselves. Maybe they're happy with that and don't want to go after the bigger sensor market, seeing as there's already a C100, C300, C500, 1D-C, FS100, FS700, F3, F5, F55, Epic, Scarlet, and ... who knows what all else ... that's pretty crowded as is...

Even so, I think there's a lot of room for an updated AF100A with 10-bit 4:2:2 and magnified focus assist and a higher dynamic range chip to at least match the BMC etc. Heck, how about they just buy and use the BMC sensor (but put a proper OLPF on it!) That'd be an interesting product, a true 10-bit long-GoP AF100 with the BMC's 12 stops, presumably sharper images, an electronic and proper lens mount, autofocus, XLRs... it'd have a tighter field of view, but other than that, maybe that'd be something folks would find appealing...
 
I get the whole ~3 year product line upgrade cycle, and somewhat welcome it... nobody likes having their $5000-$15000 camera obsolesced in a mere year or two, even if it's happening anyway.

The frustrating bit is that Panasonic already has all these great elements in different, affordable cameras that I, if I had a lick of electrical engineering knowledge, would bash together for them!

Take a GH3 sensor and its codecs... toss it in an AF100 body... vers. #1, done! (that SHOULD have been your -100A, dammit!)

Take the same sensor and toss it in a mashup between the AF and HPX250, with internal 422-10 on P2... vers. #2, done!

...would either of these versions substantially detract from R&D on whatever the next nifty thing in 3 years would be? I suppose I'm starting to look at something in the AF100 category like a consumer-level product that usually gets upgraded every 12-18 months, because frankly, it's only performing about that well. For 75% of the jobs I'm doing now, the GH3 could effectively replace it, sound recording and all. If my budgets were higher, I'd probably go to an entirely different system.
 
It would be an awful shame if Panasonic ceded the digital cinema market, the myriad competitors notwithstanding. I think that Panasonic has something in the way they deal with color that is hugely valuable. To me the Sony's look pink and desaturated and the Reds look greenish and the Canons orange. There is a beauty in the color on the AF100. Maybe in a raw world this isn't right thinking but I'd be really interested in the next one from Panasonic
 
Y'know, that's entirely possible too. Maybe they consider the market oversaturated with offerings, such that there isn't much point in them chasing after it? I don't know. I know their little cameras are quite excellent, so they've really done well there. And they must believe there's still a market to pursue with the 2/3" products.


Hmm, but is there a market? Is Panasonic clinging to a vanishing platform? Has the 2/3" camera, specifically in P2, ran its course?
I'm curious about that and I just posted a thread, in case anyone cares to give their opinion:


http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...2-format-obsolete&p=1986295180#post1986295180


I'm not trying to bash Panasonic. Like I say in my thread, I'm looking into getting back into P2 cameras, if it's a wise move.
 
Even so, I think there's a lot of room for an updated AF100A with 10-bit 4:2:2 and magnified focus assist and a higher dynamic range chip to at least match the BMC etc. Heck, how about they just buy and use the BMC sensor (but put a proper OLPF on it!) That'd be an interesting product, a true 10-bit long-GoP AF100 with the BMC's 12 stops, presumably sharper images, an electronic and proper lens mount, autofocus, XLRs... it'd have a tighter field of view, but other than that, maybe that'd be something folks would find appealing...


Don't find the tighter field of view appealing, but otherwise, exactly what I'm looking for in my next purchase. I still have an HVX, sold my AF after shooting a feature to escape depreciation, would have kept it otherwise. For those ordinary jobs between features, I have to look at what is in demand- and the HVX is at the end of it's demand curve (pretty wild that after 7 or 8 years anyone still asks for it!). No one has ever asked for the AF, despite what I know it can do.
I haven't owned a Sony since the VX1000, I'm a big fan of the Panasonic "mojo", but for the next feature I will be looking over the whole landscape of cameras.
 
Small justification for not including it. Sony has it in the F3, F5, and F55 -- in other words, they have a range of large-sensor cameras. Plus, for what it's worth, the 4K FS700 upgrade will purportedly do 12-bit raw. At this point, Panasonic has the AF101, which doesn't do real 10-bit, despite a fair amount of clamoring for it over the past two-plus years. But they could just as well have added AVC-LongG and accomplished 4:2:2 10-bit recording without going to external recorders, except that because the codec is technically part of the AVC-Ultra family, it's restricted to P2, despite LongG's low data rate (currently comparable to AVC's).
AVC-LongG is interesting. It will be the only P2 format that does not have a fixed compressed frame size, which can be a challenge to a non-linear editing system. I wonder if it was intended to be mainly for delivery and broadcast. We are going to be providing native LongG editing in Raylight Cutter. ( http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?295267-Raylight-Cutter ) as well as support for exporting it from FCP and FCPX. I have just now started looking at the specifications for it. Maybe AVC-LongG and the mini P2 card will revive the P2 format for filmmmakers.
 
Underwhelmed - The title said it all. The market has moved on, cameras are released on a more regular basis. The AF100 is miles behind. In fact, I was pretty underwhelmed by it upon release...

Sack the Pro department and hand it over to the guys making the GH's. Those guys are pushing progression!

Panasonic, here's a list of features I would like to see on the next pro Panasonic camera;

1) Sony F5

End of list
 
All of the camcorder manufacturers seem to be trying to drag all of us kicking and screaming into the future.

First there was 3-D, which to me was a solution looking for a problem.

Now we have 4K and I think this is like big TVs in an electronics stores. You look at the biggest and say wow but when you figure out what you want to pay and end up with something a bit smaller, once you have it back home you settle in and live with it.

I don't expect to be back in the market for a new camcorder for another 5 years.

I very much like the 22x zoom that is in my AG-AC160A. Aside from wanting a raised auto-focus button which I tried to build up myself only to realize that it's not such a big deal to find and press the button the way it is, my only beef with this camera was the extreme sensivitty of the audio pots. After 150 hours on the camera it seems you can just leave the volume settings a bit on the low side so they never go beyond 2/3 of the distance to the marker (greatly minimizing the chances of red lining) and boost the sound in the NLE.

Anyone care to comment on the audio settings while I have your attention?

The huge workflow improvement for me was the addition of a $99 remote (on/off, iris, focus, zoom) from Studio 1 Productions. Frankly, I cannot see how anyone with the AC 130A or AC 160A would want to be without this remote.

I do want to get a slider (horizontal and vertical), plus an high res external monitor but these are big ticket items compared to $99. i suppose I should be thinking about a DOF extender on top of these.
 
Last edited:
my only beef with this camera was the extreme sensivitty of the audio pots. After 150 hours on the camera it seems you can just leave the volume settings a bit on the low side so they never go beyond 2/3 of the distance to the marker (greatly minimizing the chances of red lining) and boost the sound in the NLE.

Anyone care to comment on the audio settings while I have your attention?
You might try recording the same mike on 2 channels, one at a normal setting and the other at a low setting. Use the louder channel during edit, but if the louder channel peaks out, use the other one. Always boosting a low recording risks audible quantization noise, especially with 16-bit audio.
 
I very much like the 22x zoom that is in my AG-AC160A. Aside from wanting a raised auto-focus button which I tried to build up myself only to realize that it's not such a big deal to find and press the button the way it is, my only beef with this camera was the extreme sensivitty of the audio pots. After 150 hours on the camera it seems you can just leave the volume settings a bit on the low side so they never go beyond 2/3 of the distance to the marker (greatly minimizing the chances of red lining) and boost the sound in the NLE.

Anyone care to comment on the audio settings while I have your attention?

Yes, I cannot tell you how many times I get footage where the audio is horrible.
Most camera guys know that when recording digital sound - you err on the side of lower volume.
Once it gets clipped - it's distorted and not a whole lot I can do with it.
 
You might try recording the same mike on 2 channels, one at a normal setting and the other at a low setting. Use the louder channel during edit, but if the louder channel peaks out, use the other one. Always boosting a low recording risks audible quantization noise, especially with 16-bit audio.

That is a good practice as well. Unless you have two mics recording different people…..
Otherwise - yes record one channel "normal" and the other channel a little lower.
 
Yes, I cannot tell you how many times I get footage where the audio is horrible.
Most camera guys know that when recording digital sound - you err on the side of lower volume.
Once it gets clipped - it's distorted and not a whole lot I can do with it.
I recall my old cameras having great limiters that would never have lousy clipping or record distortion. (with reasonable audio source -- I am sure if I put a horn in front of the mic it would distort.)
 
I think we are seeing a repeat of the history or HDV. The DVX100 was the worlds first prosumer high definition ready camcorder but required the external Andromeda recorder to capture the HD footage. Then HDV followed which featured HD recording built into the camera.
 
Back
Top