Uncompressed or ProRes 422 HQ?

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Ok so doing some math and number crunching as well as real world situations...

There are a lot of recorders on the market... I was going to pre-order the BlackMagic ShuttleDeck when I realized its ONLY uncompressed, and I forgot that uncompressed is well... HUGE when it comes to files.

A Solid State 250gig drive would only hold about 20mins of footage! With 0 compression you are left with the task of then paying a lot for storage. The cheap price in the unit was wonderful until I realized I'd be spending 20x more just for harddrives.

The image quality is astounding though, but how much better is it than ProRes HQ 422 ?

I might end up going the Samuri way if thats the case, and the file sizes would be much more manageable. Is there that much of a difference when working in post with the uncompressed vs prores or would that not be enough to justify the huge amounts of data, not to mention horsepower needed to edit it.... Thoughts?
 
I do like the Sound Devices PIX240. It looks a very solid unit, and does ProRes422 HQ and the Avid codec as an option. The BM Shuttle is very attractive for the price and considering it is so cheap I would recommend buying one. There will be times when you want an uncompressed shot in a controlled sutuation; a green screen product shot, an amazing stock shot, whatever. But I agree, even for commercials and music videos the data storage issues for the ShuttleDeck are considerable.
 
I just ordered the Pix240 from B&H.

It is a solid company who builds tank-like products.

The fact that it can record files in the 2 major formats used today is a winner too.

Giuseppe, have you tried doing a side by side test in the grading room with 422/vs HQ?

In my tests anyway, I found that the higher data rates of HQ are only worth it for files coming from the RED.

I'd be interested to see your results with your F3.
 
mcgeedigital said:
I just ordered the Pix240 from B&H.

It is a solid company who builds tank-like products.

The fact that it can record files in the 2 major formats used today is a winner too.

Giuseppe, have you tried doing a side by side test in the grading room with 422/vs HQ?

In my tests anyway, I found that the higher data rates of HQ are only worth it for files coming from the RED.

I'd be interested to see your results with your F3.
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Hi,
I am interested in the Pix 240 as well, and wonder if you have any information regarding its dimensions and weight? Cannot find same on SD's site or elsewhere.
 
I'm probably buy the pix 240 for myself when I DIT, I can make instant editorial, or dailies with burned in LUT. But with uncompressed, following the gemini way of though where you can transcode to any codec you want on set from the SSD to your offload drive, I did a quick and dirty test.

did it on my slowest office mac tower, quad 2.8 ghz nehalem, 3 gb of ram, using adobe media encoder cs5.5, a uncompressed 10 bit YUV 422 clip at 1 min 48 seconds (little over 14 gb!!) encoded to pro res HQ in, 3 minutes and 1 second.

so a tad slower than real time. The mentality is if you already have a quad core macbook pro, with 8 gb of ram, you should be able to achieve close to the same results. So you get the shuttle, you can encode onto a drive whatever codec you want with the laptop. Now could you fall behind on backups to shooting ratio? If you are shooting non stop sure. But if it's narrative, or a commercial there's usually plenty of pauses and breaks. Music video work could be a bit of a hassel, but than again you can always just have more SSD's on hand.

I personally find it pretty reasonable considering how much money you'd be saving, you just need to know what u are doing with it. I priced a pix 240 out with everything I want with it, and it was almost 4500 dollars. so there is a huge price difference with a shuttle, and a few SSD's, and a laptop you probably already own.

pix 240 pricing incase you are wondering

unit - $2600
dnxhd upgrade - $100
2 caddies for ssd - $200
intel 320 series SSD's x2 160 gb - $600
sandisk extreme 32 gb cf card (for backup roll over recording) - $240
4 sony L batteries, with charger - $600-700

ends up being around 4340-4440.

so in the end, samurai ends up being the cheapest option for sdi, compressed recording. but limited on options
shuttle is the cheapest option period, but you need a bit of for thought on the production workflow on a project by project basis. also limited on options, but again it's dirt cheap.
my favorite is the pix that's why i'm getting one, looks like it's built like a tank, most options.


cheap, fast, good right?
 
Tom,

Good for you on spelling out the real costs of a recorder. Haivng bought a nanoFlash over a year ago, I know your figures are in the ballpark. One more thing (at least) to add to your list is mounting hardware. I still haven't seen how you mount the Pix240 but I assume you have 1/4" 20 threaded holes or places to attach a BEC plate or some such thing. Attaching it to a rails setup could cost anywhere between $250 and $500 depening on which route you go take. Best case scenario for me, I would be using Anton Bauer or V-lock batteries with this unit and powering the camera and other stuff off them as well. In the end it will simplify your rig and setup time but will, obviously, cost more.

Putting the unit on top of the camera would be cheaper but it would elevate the center of gravity of the rig to a large extent. Generally not a good thing.
 
Andrew Stone said:
Tom,

Good for you on spelling out the real costs of a recorder. Haivng bought a nanoFlash over a year ago, I know your figures are in the ballpark. One more thing (at least) to add to your list is mounting hardware. I still haven't seen how you mount the Pix240 but I assume you have 1/4" 20 threaded holes or places to attach a BEC plate or some such thing. Attaching it to a rails setup could cost anywhere between $250 and $500 depening on which route you go take. Best case scenario for me, I would be using Anton Bauer or V-lock batteries with this unit and powering the camera and other stuff off them as well. In the end it will simplify your rig and setup time but will, obviously, cost more.

Putting the unit on top of the camera would be cheaper but it would elevate the center of gravity of the rig to a large extent. Generally not a good thing.
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i'm not a camera owner, but with this being potentially a rental item that's one thing I've probably gotta consider too, plus you throw in odds and ends like a pelican case, this might push over to be 5 grand. It's alright though, comes with the territory. just gotta save up those pennies!
 
I believe nanoflash.net still includes a pelican and a bunch of bits and pieces when you buy a nanoFlash. I would start there if you plan on getting one. I would also counsel you to put either a lexan shield or self adhesive plastic piece over the display area as it wouldn't stand up to the rigors of a rental. Once you get your hands on one you will understand.
 
Matt looking forward to your first take on the unit when you take delivery on the Pix240. Any idea when they expect the unit to ship?
 
Andrew Stone said:
Matt looking forward to your first take on the unit when you take delivery on the Pix240. Any idea when they expect the unit to ship?
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2-4 weeks is what I have been told.

As far as powering, I am just going to go with a D-tap to the power connector on the unit itself.

Hell if I want to hang a Dionic 90 off of it.

Mounting wise, I will probably use the zacuto arms I already have, and Zicro mounts I already have.
 
Weird that the KiPro mini wasnt mentioned. $1900 plus some CF cards.

My problem with the other ones that have monitors on them is how poor of an idea it was to make them low-res screens. Why power and waste space with a monitor you cant use? Id still have to have a TVlogic or smallhd, on top of the recorder's monitor, and maybe have to add an evf too? The uncompressed ones make little sense to me since prores will handle 99.9% of anything you will come across. The room it takes to hold uncompressed is too much to deal with for any shoot Ive been on.
 
the screens are very useful, the marshal 5'' i use now is the same resolution and size as the ones built into the SD recorder or the samuri. Pretty useful to me.
 
Cinesin said:
Weird that the KiPro mini wasnt mentioned. $1900 plus some CF cards.

My problem with the other ones that have monitors on them is how poor of an idea it was to make them low-res screens. Why power and waste space with a monitor you cant use? Id still have to have a TVlogic or smallhd, on top of the recorder's monitor, and maybe have to add an evf too? The uncompressed ones make little sense to me since prores will handle 99.9% of anything you will come across. The room it takes to hold uncompressed is too much to deal with for any shoot Ive been on.
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for me, ki mini was never in the equation. Too many limitations for the money you are paying. Plus there are varying issues with it right now, I'll be working with one next week, we'll see how that goes. But primary thing is that price to gb ratio on CF cards is MUCh higher than SSD any day. I love the idea of a CF card being a backup card for roll over recording on the pix 240. keeps the size down on the unit, and really great in a pinch. More often than not, you can just imagine somebody on set having a fast enough CF card that you could use in a bind.

backups will fly using SSD over CF too. 200+ mb/sec sustained vs 90 mb/sec variable is a big difference.
 
macgregor said:
What are the limitations on the ki mini?
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Compared to a pix 240? Pix 240 has

Built in ambient
Dnx encoding
Ssd recording
Monitor
Universal disc formatting over hfs.

And hopefully for all that money you are paying, rock solid performance. Ill be working with a ki mini next week so i can write love and hates properly. But i absolutely find only being able to record to cf cards limiting. The technology hits walls faster in speed/capacity and price per gb is super high. In fact i hear rumors that they might have to create a new type of cf all together to get to much higher speeds and capacities, with no backwards compatibility. At least when a faster ssd comes out i can still use my olds ones as regular drives for everyday use.
 
macgregor said:
BTW does the F3 output 1080p60 and can the pix 240 record that?
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Not if the HD-SDI is the same as the EX1 or EX3. I believe the HD-SDI standard for the F3 is also 1080/60i with pull down added.

I now the Nano removes the pull down automatically and records 24p or 30p. It was a major feature with the Nano when they released it.

I don't know if the other mini recorders remove pull down automatically. Has anyone checked?
Otherwise you need to do that in post, which doesn't always work well.

Has any one checked which recorders trigger via the time code?
 
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If you've already rigged your F3 with Zacuto mounts and a V-lock adaptor like I have, the price is much lower. I think it's very attractive.
 
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