I make short films and movies.
TO DOWNGRADE FROM 7D TO A T2i OR 60D BECAUSE OF AGC YES OR NO ? PRO'S AND CON'S ?
- Thread starter produce12
- Start date
I make short films and movies.
Stick with the 7d and a seperate sound recorder. I use a 7d and a 550d and a zoom h2 and synch with pluraleyes in post. Yeah it does take a little more time in post which is why I only use a seperate recorder at important events like wedding ceremonies and interviews. I fiddled with the 60d audio capabilities, and still sounded nowhere near as nice as a dedicated recorder.
mrchirster
Well-known member
i forgot to hit record on the h4n a few times which was a total disaster so I'm also looking for a method to have video and audio combined directly. I'm working as a video journalist so speed is important sometimes! Syncing in post is possible and doesnt take up so much time but if you forget to hit record once on the h4n while hitting record on the 60D it could lead to a desaster!
Right now I'm feeding the output from the H4N back to the 60d with AGC disabled. It sounds pretty bad but it gives me a sound to work with at least. Its just really inconvenient having sth like the H4n with me all the time, because it's one more device that needs an sd card and batterys like others pointed out. I wish the sound that I feed back into the 60D would be more usable and right now I'm looking for methods to improve the recorded sound on the 60D. But becasue the mic jack on the 60D has a preamp and the signal that comes from the H4n is preamplified it leads to hissing, thin and tinny sound in the 60D.
It's hard to admit but having an external sound recorder makes still the most sense! I guess I just have to remember to always push two record buttons even if i'm in a hurry. i should stick a little reminder on the camera maybe...
Anyway back to the thread: I don't think it's worth downgrading to a 60D or T2I. Full HDMI out is much more important then no AGC + you can't monitor audio with the 60D which is really important. No monitoring options could mean you get no good sound which takes you back to needing something like the H4N...
Right now I'm feeding the output from the H4N back to the 60d with AGC disabled. It sounds pretty bad but it gives me a sound to work with at least. Its just really inconvenient having sth like the H4n with me all the time, because it's one more device that needs an sd card and batterys like others pointed out. I wish the sound that I feed back into the 60D would be more usable and right now I'm looking for methods to improve the recorded sound on the 60D. But becasue the mic jack on the 60D has a preamp and the signal that comes from the H4n is preamplified it leads to hissing, thin and tinny sound in the 60D.
It's hard to admit but having an external sound recorder makes still the most sense! I guess I just have to remember to always push two record buttons even if i'm in a hurry. i should stick a little reminder on the camera maybe...
Anyway back to the thread: I don't think it's worth downgrading to a 60D or T2I. Full HDMI out is much more important then no AGC + you can't monitor audio with the 60D which is really important. No monitoring options could mean you get no good sound which takes you back to needing something like the H4N...
recordingwhiz
Well-known member
produce12.
If you're Using your camera for movie projects that you hope to try to get as close to Hollywood as possible, PLEASE dont waste your time on any of the Canon's built in audio, they suck a$$!!!!
a $99 H1 will outperform them by far.
and other recorders will outperform the H1 easy as well.
there is a reason why you hear all through out these forums about using an external recorder with DSLR's, after so many people attempting and failing at getting "movie quality" (or anything anywhere near it) sound please learn from others and stop wasting your time and use an external recorder and proper micing techniques, you will thank yourself many times over when you go to edit your movies.
You are better off with the 7D due to the fact that the HDMI out will not downscale when you go to record mode and a nice 7" monitor attached will be tons better than a little flip LCD on the 60D, plus having a weatherized body so its more rugged. AGC defeat is irrelevant as built in audio is pretty much useless for anything other than syncing your external recorder's audio.
If you're Using your camera for movie projects that you hope to try to get as close to Hollywood as possible, PLEASE dont waste your time on any of the Canon's built in audio, they suck a$$!!!!
a $99 H1 will outperform them by far.
and other recorders will outperform the H1 easy as well.
there is a reason why you hear all through out these forums about using an external recorder with DSLR's, after so many people attempting and failing at getting "movie quality" (or anything anywhere near it) sound please learn from others and stop wasting your time and use an external recorder and proper micing techniques, you will thank yourself many times over when you go to edit your movies.
You are better off with the 7D due to the fact that the HDMI out will not downscale when you go to record mode and a nice 7" monitor attached will be tons better than a little flip LCD on the 60D, plus having a weatherized body so its more rugged. AGC defeat is irrelevant as built in audio is pretty much useless for anything other than syncing your external recorder's audio.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
blaaaah blah blah blah... what a pile of hyperbole.
Point is if your an indie - writing / shooting / editing then yep you can REALLY do without the head ache of post sync audio if you can turn off auto gain control. Ive always recorded on sync in cameras, from the hvx200 to the hpx500. Wow... they were even real productions too...
Of course there is always a less convenient method to do something... eveeeen better. But for relative convenience then YES i'd definately consider - if no hack is forthcoming for the 7d, to conisder the t2i or 60. Honestly it sometimes feels like reading techies responding from a prayer book
Seriously, I'm with this guy. I truly doubt even half of the people hating on the internal mic jack have even tried it properly!
You want real opinions? Stop listening to everyone repeating what they heard from someone else and look at people who actually have TRIED and TESTED this:
http://vimeo.com/5388476
I believe it is entirely possible to do without an external recorder.
Yeah but having No-AGC is a plus. Tell me why I should not downgrade. I have 2 options right now sell my 7d and downgrade to the 60d or hacked T2i which Im still delirious about. If ML releases some firmware to hack a 7d that would be great but rumors have it that the 7d is unhackable or crackable. I dont know how true this is. Also the 7d has 2 processors vs 60d and T2i has only 1 processor. I only do video mainly so with that being said does processors matter when it comes to video too ? I just need some options.
Some people are lazy. Just record properly on a separate recorder and get great audio with a great preamp. It's like people saying "I don't want to take time to set up lights, it's a real pain." Well it's something that is needed. Just train yourself to get into the habit of hitting the record button on the H4n. I missed a take the first time I started shooting with it. After I got into a routine all was fine.
If you are shooting film don't sell yourself short. Just realize that overall these DSLR's had audio as low priority in their design.
I was in the same boat as you months ago and almost sold my 7d for a 60d but after much research and working on client projects I realized that there's no way I'd trust the audio on the 60d. The main reason is because there is ----- no head phone jack on the camera. No this is a no no.
You always.....always want to monitor your audio on the end of the sound chain on the source where it is being recorder. The JuicedLink is no help to this because even though you have a headphone jack on it, you are still not hearing the end of the chain. There could be a buzz or anything between the JuickedLink and the input of the 60d and you won't even notice it until you got home and checked footage.
Now once you are standing in a room full of clients and you hit record somehow trusting audio you cannot hear on the 60d, your mind will change real quick. (at least for me) You won't feel 100% confident that you know what your getting for audio. I can trust someone sitting next to me professionally hired to gather separate audio. In addition to that the H4n has XLR and 1/4 TRS inputs, phantom power and Zoom has even released a firmware update that lets you control each channel individually. The 60d has a lame minijack input.
If you are shooting film don't sell yourself short. Just realize that overall these DSLR's had audio as low priority in their design.
I was in the same boat as you months ago and almost sold my 7d for a 60d but after much research and working on client projects I realized that there's no way I'd trust the audio on the 60d. The main reason is because there is ----- no head phone jack on the camera. No this is a no no.
You always.....always want to monitor your audio on the end of the sound chain on the source where it is being recorder. The JuicedLink is no help to this because even though you have a headphone jack on it, you are still not hearing the end of the chain. There could be a buzz or anything between the JuickedLink and the input of the 60d and you won't even notice it until you got home and checked footage.
Now once you are standing in a room full of clients and you hit record somehow trusting audio you cannot hear on the 60d, your mind will change real quick. (at least for me) You won't feel 100% confident that you know what your getting for audio. I can trust someone sitting next to me professionally hired to gather separate audio. In addition to that the H4n has XLR and 1/4 TRS inputs, phantom power and Zoom has even released a firmware update that lets you control each channel individually. The 60d has a lame minijack input.
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M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Ok, here's how I understand it:
The 7D is marketed as a higher end professional device, which means they are giving you better durability and build quality and more access to manual controls (as opposed to options you have to dig into menus for on the 60D and t2i).
The dual sensors of the 7D do offer some things that the cheaper cameras do not, however. Namely, you can output live HDMI to an external monitor at full resolution while filming. This is a key feature for many professionals who work with a crew. Also, supposedly the dual sensor can help in low-light with higher ISO, however I haven't seen any proof of this one way or another... according to the guys at the Zacuto shootout, the t2i was about the same quality-wise to the 7D.
The decision is yours.
Jason Adams
Section Moderator
I say 60D.
Articulating screen
Manual Audio - i still recommend a split system but nice to know its there
NO overheating issues
SD cards are cheaper per gig.
You can keep your batteries - same as 7D/5D
For video only the 60D is superior. If you do a lot of stills/video keep the 7D. And if you get the signal right the in cam audio is nearly indistinguishable from the zoom. I have a colleague who is recording in camera using the Zoom as a preamp and the audio sounds great. The mess of adapters and work araounds would only make it worth it if you had lots of footage to sync in post but recording great audio in camera can be done.
Articulating screen
Manual Audio - i still recommend a split system but nice to know its there
NO overheating issues
SD cards are cheaper per gig.
You can keep your batteries - same as 7D/5D
For video only the 60D is superior. If you do a lot of stills/video keep the 7D. And if you get the signal right the in cam audio is nearly indistinguishable from the zoom. I have a colleague who is recording in camera using the Zoom as a preamp and the audio sounds great. The mess of adapters and work araounds would only make it worth it if you had lots of footage to sync in post but recording great audio in camera can be done.
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Since getting ML for my t2i, this is what has been working for me audio wise: I load up a tone track to my H4, then I hook up a Y splitter to the HEADPHONE output. My specfiic y splitter is important because it doesn't split the signal at all, it gives a full-stereo signal to each plug. I plug in my headphones to one and a 3.5mm cord to the camera into the other. I then use the tone to establish a good max level on the camera's meters by fiddling with the headphone volume and analog gain in ML. Once that is all set up I get the mic levels right on H4 so I'm getting a strong signal. I then recheck the levels on the camera. Then I'm good to go. This takes all of about 4 minutes total at the beginning of the day. I don't care how run and gun you think you are, you can spare 4 minutes at the start of a day.
I like doing it this way because you not only get an audio track that is usable for web and stuff straight out of the camera, but you also have the great 24bit copy from the H4 if the project ever gets picked up for broadcast or if there's clipping on the cameras track (which there really shouldn't be if you did levels!)
And to the person that doesn't like using an external recorder because it's hard to remember to push "record", REALLY?
I will shoot some test examples for you this afternoon.
I like doing it this way because you not only get an audio track that is usable for web and stuff straight out of the camera, but you also have the great 24bit copy from the H4 if the project ever gets picked up for broadcast or if there's clipping on the cameras track (which there really shouldn't be if you did levels!)
And to the person that doesn't like using an external recorder because it's hard to remember to push "record", REALLY?
I will shoot some test examples for you this afternoon.
...One other thought to consider is: How Good is the Cameras' Audio Noise-Floor?
I own both the Canon 60 D and the Panasonic GH-2, and was a little surprised at the difference in the recorded noise-floor for these cameras.
Canon 60D Noise-Floor: -53 dB ( when calibrated to correctly record a -12 dB 1 kHz test-tone from a Sound Devices mixer )
Panasonic GH-2 Noise-Floor: -63 dB ( when calibrated to correctly record a -12 dB 1 kHz test-tone from a Sound Devices mixer )
...So the Canon 60D audio is 10 dB noisier than the Panasonic GH-2 audio, which is still usable but not great. ( there is absolutely no room for error with the Canon 60D audio )
For comparison here is how my other cameras stack up:
Panasonic HMC-150 Noise-Floor: -63 dB
Panasonic HS700 Noise-Floor: -82 dB ( amazing for a consumer camera )
Canon HG-21 Noise-Floor: -73 dB
Olympus LS-10 digital audio recorder: -62 dB
...Based upon my audio tests I might risk recording directly to the GH-2, but I will always use an external digital recorder with the Canon 60D because I need to have some room for error that I can correct in post.
My guess is that the other Canon DSLRs ( 5D MKII / 7D / T2i ) probably have a similar noise-floor as the 60D, so an external recorder is also a pretty good idea. ( I'll try and test the T2i and 7D cameras within the next couple of weeks so that I can confirm my suspicions )
I own both the Canon 60 D and the Panasonic GH-2, and was a little surprised at the difference in the recorded noise-floor for these cameras.
Canon 60D Noise-Floor: -53 dB ( when calibrated to correctly record a -12 dB 1 kHz test-tone from a Sound Devices mixer )
Panasonic GH-2 Noise-Floor: -63 dB ( when calibrated to correctly record a -12 dB 1 kHz test-tone from a Sound Devices mixer )
...So the Canon 60D audio is 10 dB noisier than the Panasonic GH-2 audio, which is still usable but not great. ( there is absolutely no room for error with the Canon 60D audio )
For comparison here is how my other cameras stack up:
Panasonic HMC-150 Noise-Floor: -63 dB
Panasonic HS700 Noise-Floor: -82 dB ( amazing for a consumer camera )
Canon HG-21 Noise-Floor: -73 dB
Olympus LS-10 digital audio recorder: -62 dB
...Based upon my audio tests I might risk recording directly to the GH-2, but I will always use an external digital recorder with the Canon 60D because I need to have some room for error that I can correct in post.
My guess is that the other Canon DSLRs ( 5D MKII / 7D / T2i ) probably have a similar noise-floor as the 60D, so an external recorder is also a pretty good idea. ( I'll try and test the T2i and 7D cameras within the next couple of weeks so that I can confirm my suspicions )
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Yes, the problem with the 60D is that with agc disabled, the analog gain is always set to 0. You can adjust the gain manually, however it is only the digital one- the analog gain remains at 0 for some reason. This is where Canon seems to have still missed their mark, however Magic Lantern has saved the day somewhat.
In that VIMEO breakdown I linked to a few posts back, John explained (either in the video or in his notes below, I forget which) that in his initial test, he found the audio a bit noisier than he would have liked when linked into the camera with AGC off. But, on his second test, he used ML to raise the analog gain to 10, leaving digital off, and the results were much cleaner.
If you are going to test, keep that in mind.
I test all audio devices the same way, which is to feed a 1 kHz test-tone from my Sound Devices mixer and adjust the camera's audio gain until the test-tone registers at -12 dB. With the Panasonic GH-2 I found their internal audio level control to be very crude and even when set to it's lowest setting was still too sensitive, so I ended up using the audio pot on my BeachTek DXA-2 passive XLR adapter to bring the signal down to the point where the test-tone would record properly at -12 dB. With the Canon 60D, I was able to set the -12 dB calibration without having to use the BeachTek controls.
Perry Wilson
Well-known member
stick with you 7D get an H4n and use plural eyes... problem solved... get a hot shoe mount for the zoom
markblasco
Well-known member
OK, I did some extensive testing with the H4N and the 60D (using an NTG-2), which is detailed on another post. The conclusion I came to is this: If you have an external preamp, the 60D audio is useable, but not good. I would use it for a web video, or something low key, but not something I was getting paid for. If you are plugging the mic directly in, it is bad bad bad. Very noisy and not very good sounding. I am going to be doing some more testing in the near future, but so far, I am not impressed.
It is nice, however, to have the AGC turned off when using the internal mic for home movies. The sound isn't "broadcast quality", but to hear my little baby squeak without the gain pumping away is a nice thing!
It is nice, however, to have the AGC turned off when using the internal mic for home movies. The sound isn't "broadcast quality", but to hear my little baby squeak without the gain pumping away is a nice thing!
Ethan Lane
Active member
If you're working with a small crew/ just yourself - I say get the 60D and a Rode. Record with it and then have your actors rerecord their lines in studio. Dialogue is the most important part of the sound. The rest you can get away with the 60D's audio. just my .02
ps the t2i/60D screens are MINT. added bonus.
ps the t2i/60D screens are MINT. added bonus.
.......given a good studio, with proper mics, pop guards, good pre-amps, professional sound engineer etc etc, this is going to cost a lot more than a Zoom H4n on the first time alone. Re-takes add up even more. For the average guy looking at whether to use a 7D or 60D this is simply not an option. The Zoom H4n is awesome for the price.
recordingwhiz
Well-known member
Some people are just dead set on being the first to find the magic combination that turns dog poo into ravioli.
let them try. to some of the uneducated, "ok" sound is good enough.
remember we sadly and unfortunately live in a world where most people consider mp3 a "good sounding" medium.
just a thought.
I like people that dont listen to good audio advice, they keep my pockets lined with extra cash as I fix their "OK" sound when they finish editing their movie or short and realize it sound slike dog poo.
most things I fix cost them WAY more than a H4n or something similar.
let them try. to some of the uneducated, "ok" sound is good enough.
remember we sadly and unfortunately live in a world where most people consider mp3 a "good sounding" medium.
just a thought.
I like people that dont listen to good audio advice, they keep my pockets lined with extra cash as I fix their "OK" sound when they finish editing their movie or short and realize it sound slike dog poo.
most things I fix cost them WAY more than a H4n or something similar.