Thoughts on where future Magic Lantern updates for the T3i are going?

MarkyMarkV

MarkyMarkV

Member
I'm faced with a dilemma, but I don't think it's as big as a dilemma as before.

I'm split between the Canon Rebel T2i and the T3i and quite frankly, the Magic Lantern firmware has blown me away with all of the features it unlocks. When I looked at the comparison form between the T2i and the T3i, I was slightly disappointed to see the T3i lacking features that the T2i had, especially in terms of audio. People who own the T2i almost always mention the lack of rotating-LCD, which seems like a nice addition, but not entirely necessary feature.

My question basically is this: Do you think future Magic Lantern updates will extend some of the T3i's features to match those already unlocked for the T2i? I think I'd be absolutely fine with the T2i, but are there other features that I am not aware of? I'm already leaning towards the T2i, but I wanted some experienced input from the DVX community.

Thanks.
 
MarkyMarkV said:
I'm faced with a dilemma, but I don't think it's as big as a dilemma as before.

I'm split between the Canon Rebel T2i and the T3i and quite frankly, the Magic Lantern firmware has blown me away with all of the features it unlocks. When I looked at the comparison form between the T2i and the T3i, I was slightly disappointed to see the T3i lacking features that the T2i had, especially in terms of audio. People who own the T2i almost always mention the lack of rotating-LCD, which seems like a nice addition, but not entirely necessary feature.

My question basically is this: Do you think future Magic Lantern updates will extend some of the T3i's features to match those already unlocked for the T2i? I think I'd be absolutely fine with the T2i, but are there other features that I am not aware of? I'm already leaning towards the T2i, but I wanted some experienced input from the DVX community.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I have the t2i, but I am going to be getting a t3i too soon. The main audio feature you gain on the t2i via Magic Lantern for me is monitoring. This is very important if you're using the audio from the camera, which can be acceptable for many applications.

The main attraction of the t3i for me is the sensor zoom for video. It's not perfect, but up to 3x the reach with only a small trade off in IQ is compelling to say the least. I don't care about the articulating screen, apart from the fact that it is probably the main reason why the t3i doesn't overheat like the t2i by all accounts.

PS, there is no guarantee that the t3i will ever see progress on the audio features, as it has a different chip. Until someone can peak inside and find out more, support will be lacking.
 
Okay, well I guess that basically finalizes the decision then. T2i it is.
I do have 1 more concern that you bring up; overheating. I've heard about it, but how much weight should I put on it? I'm not going to be shooting videos to the 12-minute limit or over. I'd be doing short videos or short films with short shot lengths...is this something to be concerned about?
 
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MarkyMarkV said:
Okay, well I guess that basically finalizes the decision then. T2i it is.
I do have 1 more concern that you bring up; overheating. I've heard about it, but how much weight should I put on it? I'm not going to be shooting videos to the 12-minute limit or over. I'd be doing short videos or short films with short shot lengths...is this something to be concerned about?
Click to expand...

The t2i will probably overheat just when you don't want it to. If you use video occasionally for fun, it won't be a problem, but if you use it as a main camera during a shoot that lasts a few hours, it will become a royal pain, trust me. It doesn't matter if you don't have long shots, because heat builds up even with lots of short shots. The heat takes time to dissipate, so you have to wait once it gets hot so you don't risk it happening mid-shot. I hope the rest of your crew don't mind waiting.

Solution: 2 t2i's or one t3i. In my opinion, you are better off with a camera you can rely on and recording audio to an external device. The zoom H1 is supposed to be pretty good and it's very cheap.
 
I have both a T2i and T3i. The T3i has on screen audio monitoring without ML. The tilt screen is a huge advantage. The 3x crop/zoom is incredible. T3i never overheats. There is also a slight ergonomic control layout difference that I much prefer in the T3i.

If audio is at all important, you'll need an external recorder in either case. The only compelling reason to buy a T2i is if you can find it at a very good price.

Cheers,
Pete
 
c3hammer said:
I have both a T2i and T3i. The T3i has on screen audio monitoring without ML. The tilt screen is a huge advantage. The 3x crop/zoom is incredible. T3i never overheats. There is also a slight ergonomic control layout difference that I much prefer in the T3i.

If audio is at all important, you'll need an external recorder in either case. The only compelling reason to buy a T2i is if you can find it at a very good price.

Cheers,
Pete
Click to expand...

I was referring to actual audio monitoring, as in monitoring the signal being recorded via headphones, just like the real pros :)

Once you use this feature for a shoot, you will be reluctant to be without it. A VU meter won't let you hear wind noise, or a poor tone quality or excessive hiss, etc, etc. I know of some poeple who will not upgrade to the t3i until if/when monitoring becomes available, so it seems there are more compelling reasons than just price to some people. I am not one of them BTW. It has been said many times, not least by dishe in his excellent video, despite the popular wisdom that audio on the t2i is completely un-usable for any application, it turns out this is not based on fact. There are no absolutes, it depends on what you're doing with the camera.

But other than that, I agree with what you say, and was also trying to subtly persuade the OP to get the t3i.
 
Thanks for all of the feedback! I'm going to just hit the points both of you made in order.

1.) I know that the T3i has audio metering, but not playback, so that's a huge disadvantage and something I wouldn't want to go without. The ML firmware for the T2i unlocks audio monitoring, as well as AGC disabling and manual audio control, all things that help my workflow and corner-cutting.

2.) As far as external recorders go, I absolutely understand the need to have one, regardless of the camera you use; but unfortunately, I need to cut corners and if I am able to use the camera audio-in with my shotgun, I will absolutely try to do so. I don't always have the time or the manpower to use a 2-system sound setup. (I'm usually the only tech-person on set. Everyone else is either an actor, writer, or some other non-tech job.) So unfortunately, the one-system sound setup is what I'm forced to use. Seeing as how the work that I'm doing now is more for my personal enjoyment/hobby, using an external recorder isn't that big of a priority at the moment. I'm also extremely limited in money. I'm 17 and my parents are willing to pay $500 for the camera, I have to buy the rest, which is absolutely fine with me. (Eff yeah high SAT scores).

3.) I'm not really too concerned with the 3x crop/zoom as I don't really know what it is, but I do know that I'd be fine without it.
4.) Same for the swivel screen; I've always done with outdated equipment (My laptop is 5 years old and I'm trying to do 3D animation and CGI on it...I have a gift for squeezing blood out of stones.) So I can definitely do without the swivel screen for the price difference.

5.) I haven't seen Dishe's video about T2i audio, but would be interested in watching it, but again, it seems like 99% of this forum is on an entirely different level than I am in terms of equipment and standards.

I did some research this morning and read a few things about the overheating issues:
1.) Some people said that having 2 or 3 batteries and rotating them helps delay the overheating from occurring. While it is not ideal, it is something I could do.
2.) One reviewer on amazon said that he tried using an "A Data" SD card to record video. The camera would overheat within seconds and shutdown. He tried a Transcend 16Gb Class 6 Card and hasn't had the problem since.

It really seems like hit or miss with this overheating. Some people say that their cameras overheat, but that it happens during a heatwave...in Florida...in the middle of summer...

I want you guys to know that while it seems like I am DEAD SET for buying the T2i, I'm not. The T3i lacks key audio features for my corner-cutting and I need to buy a Canon DSLR because I have 2 Canon EF-S lenses already, so I can save money.

I appreciate all of the feedback you guys have given me so far. Thanks a lot! I look forward to your replies.

~Mark
 
The only time my T2i overheated was when I set up my living room "studio." Small space, lots of lighting, and recording fairly continuously for about 2 hours before I started getting the heat warnings.
 
The overheating isn't much of an issue on the T2i. We used it as our only camera on Leap ROTB and we shot in the middle of summer and shooting. Just turn it off between takes and swap out batteries every 30 minutes or so.
 
jamesd256 said:
My t2i overheats during heavy use. Outside temperatures don't seem that influential.

It's worse when I'm using a loupe, but I consider a loupe essential. Some people say it's better with a battery grip, which makes sense because the battery gets warm and is closer to the sensor than the batteries in a grip.

The video I was referring to is in the sticky thread about audio:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?240822-The-Canon-DSLR-Audio-thread
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right - using a grip, I don't think I've EVER had the camera overheat even after using it for hours on end. Unfortunately my follow focus is el cheapo and doesn't accomodate the height of the lens after the grip is installed.
 
El Director said:
The overheating isn't much of an issue on the T2i..
Click to expand...

I have seen two t2i's recording the same shot from a different angles with the same brand of memory card, one persistently overheated (my one), and one did not. Let's not forget that the sensors Canon put in their cameras have a working tolerance for heat efficiency, so some cameras are bound to be worse than others.

We need to be careful about making generalisations based on one camera, which is what you seem to be doing. Please correct me if you have a wider base of t2i experience to draw on.

Stating that it's not much of an issue flies in the face of countless stories and accounts I have heard of. You just have to google to get a flavour:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=t2i+OR+550d+over+heating&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&source=hp&q=t2i+OR+550d+"over+heating"+OR+overheating&pbx=1&oq=t2i+OR+550d+"over+heating"+OR+overheating&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=219133l222418l0l223054l17l13l0l0l0l0l213l1893l2.9.2l13l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=a8125957dc1c74be&biw=1760&bih=853
 
jamesd256 said:
My t2i overheats during heavy use. Outside temperatures don't seem that influential.

It's worse when I'm using a loupe, but I consider a loupe essential. Some people say it's better with a battery grip, which makes sense because the battery gets warm and is closer to the sensor than the batteries in a grip.

The video I was referring to is in the sticky thread about audio:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?240822-The-Canon-DSLR-Audio-thread
Click to expand...

Now that I see what video you were talking about, I do remember watching it. Thanks.

I won't be using a battery grip, nor a loupe, at least not for now; although loupes are pretty friggin' cool.

I think my best bet is to go for the T2i, use it for a month or 2 without installing Magic Lantern and then turn it in for service or something. That way Canon can't deny the warranty and claim that it's void in any way.

Thanks for all of the help Jamesd256, Hendosan, C3Hammer, and El Director! I'm a little bit more calm regarding this whole overheating thing. :D
 
MarkyMarkV said:
5.) I haven't seen Dishe's video about T2i audio, but would be interested in watching it, but again, it seems like 99% of this forum is on an entirely different level than I am in terms of equipment and standards.
Click to expand...

So interesting that you refer to that video as "Dishe's"- I haven't gone by that name in a while around here!

Anyway, I would stick with the t2i until the next wave of cameras are out with the Digic V chip. These bodies are expendable as far as I'm concerned, so if you are on a budget get the cheapest camera that does the job for now. The t2i will do that just fine, cost you less, and have the added advantages in audio that ML grants you. I personally bought a second t2i recently so I could stop renting for multicam shoots. I considered a t3i and even a 60D, but at the end of the day I didn't want to invest more than I needed to with new cameras around the corner.

As far as overheating- If overheating were an issue for me, I would have picked a different model. Neither of my personal T2i's have ever overheated, and the ones that I borrow/rent have not either, including being used on a set for 3 hours straight (using ML to resume recording automatically). I'm under the impression that this was an early firmware issue, however I hear about this happening from time to time so who knows. It appears to effect some but clearly not everyone.
 
Oh, my mistake Gilden. x) I only referred to you as Dishe because that's what the previous poster referred to you as. Haha.

And what you say makes logical sense; why upgrade to the currently most up-to-date when these new Digic 5 cameras will soon be announced?

And it's interesting that you say firmware issue rather than hardware issue. I know the 7D (I think it was that model) that had a firmware upgrade that fixed some overheating problems, but wouldn't it be more of a hardware-based problem, and Canon slowly phased in different parts without making it public knowledge?
 
Hey Mark, I think we may be on the same boat (or near enough) in terms of equipment. My entire filmmaking life has been about squeezing blood out of stones. Here's my proverbial 2 cents...

I'd take a ML t2i over a t3i any day. White balance, crop marks, decent ISO increments - I'll never be able to use a stock t2i for video again...

MarkyMarkV said:
1.) I know that the T3i has audio metering, but not playback, so that's a huge disadvantage and something I wouldn't want to go without. The ML firmware for the T2i unlocks audio monitoring, as well as AGC disabling and manual audio control, all things that help my workflow and corner-cutting.

2.) As far as external recorders go, I absolutely understand the need to have one, regardless of the camera you use; but unfortunately, I need to cut corners and if I am able to use the camera audio-in with my shotgun, I will absolutely try to do so. I don't always have the time or the manpower to use a 2-system sound setup. (I'm usually the only tech-person on set. Everyone else is either an actor, writer, or some other non-tech job.) So unfortunately, the one-system sound setup is what I'm forced to use. Seeing as how the work that I'm doing now is more for my personal enjoyment/hobby, using an external recorder isn't that big of a priority at the moment. I'm also extremely limited in money. I'm 17 and my parents are willing to pay $500 for the camera, I have to buy the rest, which is absolutely fine with me. (Eff yeah high SAT scores).
Click to expand...

The audio features that ML adds to the t2i are fantastic. Level controls, AGC disable, metering... add that with my Juicedlink and I was really impressed with the sound I got in my last short film (all in-camera).

MarkyMarkV said:
It really seems like hit or miss with this overheating. Some people say that their cameras overheat, but that it happens during a heatwave...in Florida...in the middle of summer...
Click to expand...

M. Gilden said:
As far as overheating- If overheating were an issue for me, I would have picked a different model. Neither of my personal T2i's have ever overheated, and the ones that I borrow/rent have not either, including being used on a set for 3 hours straight (using ML to resume recording automatically). I'm under the impression that this was an early firmware issue, however I hear about this happening from time to time so who knows. It appears to effect some but clearly not everyone.
Click to expand...

Seriously, I have no clue what is up with this overheating issue!! I have never had my 550D overheat on me, ever - and this is Africa! Maybe it's my SD cards (class 10), maybe it's because I use an external monitor, or maybe it's because I turn the camera off when we're not going to be shooting for a couple of minutes (I usually do this to save battery power - I only have 2 batteries)... but I've never experienced it.
 
kylevant said:
I'd take a ML t2i over a t3i any day. White balance, crop marks, decent ISO increments - I'll never be able to use a stock t2i for video again...
Click to expand...

The t3i has all these features as magic lantern has been ported to it, and has been stable for some time now. It just doesn't have the audio features and a couple of minor things. Please see the Wikia if you are unsure about the situation:

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/600D

kylevant said:
Seriously, I have no clue what is up with this overheating issue!! I have never had my 550D overheat on me, ever - and this is Africa! Maybe it's my SD cards (class 10), maybe it's because I use an external monitor, or maybe it's because I turn the camera off when we're not going to be shooting for a couple of minutes (I usually do this to save battery power - I only have 2 batteries)... but I've never experienced it.
Click to expand...

An external monitor means your LCD is not generating any heat, and as it's right behind the sensor, this makes sense.
 
MarkyMarkV said:
And it's interesting that you say firmware issue rather than hardware issue. I know the 7D (I think it was that model) that had a firmware upgrade that fixed some overheating problems, but wouldn't it be more of a hardware-based problem, and Canon slowly phased in different parts without making it public knowledge?
Click to expand...

I think the original firmware used to report overheating too early, causing false alarms. Its possible that a firmware update raised the heat threshold or something. Or maybe they just started using better parts, I don't know. My first t2i was a refurb (perhaps they had already fixed it?), and the one I used to rent and/or borrow was a late model, and my second personal one is another refurb purchased recently. So, perhaps I just got lucky enough to have missed all the lemons if it was, in fact, some sort of hardware problem.

kylevant said:
I'd take a ML t2i over a t3i any day. White balance, crop marks, decent ISO increments - I'll never be able to use a stock t2i for video again...

...

The audio features that ML adds to the t2i are fantastic. Level controls, AGC disable, metering... add that with my Juicedlink and I was really impressed with the sound I got in my last short film (all in-camera).
Click to expand...

jamesd256 said:
The t3i has all these features as magic lantern has been ported to it, and has been stable for some time now. It just doesn't have the audio features and a couple of minor things. Please see the Wikia if you are unsure about the situation:

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/600D
Click to expand...

I also chose another T2i instead of a t3i, mostly because of Magic Lantern. Yes, the features are identical if you do not intend to use the camera's audio at all. But having the audio in camera for run-and-gun situations has made my Rebel infinitely more useful. I could not go back to not having it, personally.
I'm actually filming another episode of a short weekly lecture series tonight, and intend to do what I've been doing all along- have a Sennheiser wireless lav directly into camera and monitor it live via Sony MDR-V600 headphones. For a short quick-and-dirty weekly gig like this, it is only worth while if I can do it quickly and efficiently from start to finish (shoot, minor color correct, add titles, export to stream for their website). If I had to resort to dual system sound, it would bottleneck my productivity just enough that this project is no longer worth what they are paying me. Not that dual system audio is so hard, but its another piece of equipment to bring, set up, organize all clips in post and synch, etc. I've done it, and even own Plural Eyes, and would just rather not have to when trying to minimize the time spent on this. In that regard, the T2i is a more functional camera for me and how I use it.
 
M. Gilden said:
I also chose another T2i instead of a t3i, mostly because of Magic Lantern. Yes, the features are identical if you do not intend to use the camera's audio at all. But having the audio in camera for run-and-gun situations has made my Rebel infinitely more useful. I could not go back to not having it, personally.
Click to expand...

Made us more rebellious, in the audio aspect... :Drogar-Happy(DBG):
 
M. Gilden said:
I think the original firmware used to report overheating too early, causing false alarms. Its possible that a firmware update raised the heat threshold or something. Or maybe they just started using better parts, I don't know. My first t2i was a refurb (perhaps they had already fixed it?), and the one I used to rent and/or borrow was a late model, and my second personal one is another refurb purchased recently. So, perhaps I just got lucky enough to have missed all the lemons if it was, in fact, some sort of hardware problem.





I also chose another T2i instead of a t3i, mostly because of Magic Lantern. Yes, the features are identical if you do not intend to use the camera's audio at all. But having the audio in camera for run-and-gun situations has made my Rebel infinitely more useful. I could not go back to not having it, personally.
I'm actually filming another episode of a short weekly lecture series tonight, and intend to do what I've been doing all along- have a Sennheiser wireless lav directly into camera and monitor it live via Sony MDR-V600 headphones. For a short quick-and-dirty weekly gig like this, it is only worth while if I can do it quickly and efficiently from start to finish (shoot, minor color correct, add titles, export to stream for their website). If I had to resort to dual system sound, it would bottleneck my productivity just enough that this project is no longer worth what they are paying me. Not that dual system audio is so hard, but its another piece of equipment to bring, set up, organize all clips in post and synch, etc. I've done it, and even own Plural Eyes, and would just rather not have to when trying to minimize the time spent on this. In that regard, the T2i is a more functional camera for me and how I use it.
Click to expand...

Just playing devil's advocate here, and let me just say, all along, I have tried to stay balanced about the relative merits of the t2i and t3i. I am still torn about whether to add a t3i myself. I would love to have that 3x for a number of reasons.

Are these all the issues with audio?

Monitoring

Has always been possible indirectly on the t3i with a signal splitting setup, but you have to watch what levels go into the camera pretty closely, but this applies to the t2i too. Splitting the signal means you have to tweak things for the impedance of your headphones/amp, so it's more tricky on the t3i, but possible

AGC

Can be disabled on the t3i natively.

Manual gain

Yes, can be controlled natively on the t3i, but how about digital gain? ML lets you control this too. Is there any evidence that digital gain is being applied in the camera?

Performance of new audio chip

Has anyone done any thorough testing of the t3i using the best possible equipment (Juiced link, decent mics?). How does the noise floor compare?


I hear what you say about double system not being commercially viable, so yes, the audio potential of the t3i has to reach the level of the t2i, but has anyone proven it can't be done?
 
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