Thoughts on FS700 in 2016

I have had an A7s for a year now and tried many times to use other cameras in the poor/low light I shoot Video in.
No extra lights are allowed.
Typically I shoot between 6400 and 10,000 ISO with my 28-135 Cine at F8 and DownRes 4k to 1080P30 with the 7Q+.
I already have the recorder and shoot from a sturdy Video TriPod so all I need is the FS700 and maybe a Sony 18-105 lens.
I may wait for that as the newly announced G version will be a Cine lens.

Before I press the buy button, I have to ask will this CamCorder cut it in low light?
 
Jim Arthurs said:
The FS700 is very much a "indy film makers universal camera" in the way I haven't seen since I purchased my first Bolex in the '80's (even better... it can do sync sound and you don't have to wind it up!). Of course without the Odyssey the internal codec is lacking compared to even the EX1-EX3 from years earlier. Sure, it could be better in any number of ways, but it's good enough in general to make it a winner. In a recent production I shot it held up very nicely to the Canon C300 Mark2 (both recording to the Odyssey UHD ProRes) and in truth I enjoyed the "experience" with the FS700 more and used it for 2/3rds of the shoot days when I had the opportunity to use either camera. The over-cranking flexibility is wonderful, the rolling shutter very under control, the built in ND's... the ecosystem of accessories inexpensive (those cheap batteries last and last!). The metabones adapters makes the Canon lenses a pleasant enough experience. And as far as the Odyssey goes, support for the FS700 was a target from conception and has had the greatest development time of all the cameras out there, IMO.

What doesn't get enough press, even from Convergent Design, is how, by recording from the RAW stream to the Odyssey, the dreaded Sony "look" is completely avoided... no yellow highlights, no Sony profile processing, just the the least messed-with image with nice white clean over-exposure, even when using the 1 or 2 stop compensation LUTS. Is it a noisy camera? Sure, but that fact (unlike the other Sony cameras that use the same sensor) is not immediately hidden behind all the in-camera Sony processing and the Odyssey assures that the actual noise texture is cleanly recorded and not thrown away by the lesser in-camera codec. Throw the 1 or 2 stop LUT on the Odyssey, effectively over-exposing to 1000ASA or 500ASA and it cleans up remarkably while still leaving lots of dynamic range.

Did I just talk myself into buying someone's nice used FS700? Maybe I did.... :)

Regards,
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The color rendition isn't really different in my experiences when shooting RAW to ProRes. I record straight to the Odyssey and compressed to an SD card simultaneously. If you pixel peep the colors are the same but the detail, DR, noise, etc is MUCH better on the Odyssey. The only real problem I have color-wise with SLog2 is the reds looking orange, but I simply slide the red hue away from orange in Colorista.
 
+1 to Jim.

Recording 4K RAW to the O7Q and debayering with a *decent* pipeline and the image out of the FS700 is as good as anything out there IMHO. Certainly a lot better than Slog2 ProRes or any baked in format. I still feel the image out of this compares very well with Ursa Mini and the usual suspects.

But it's a pain to work with, it's not the most ergonomic of cameras but if you have end to end control over your workflow i don't think you can beat it value-for-money these days

cheers
Paul
 
RRRoger said:
Before I press the buy button, I have to ask will this CamCorder cut it in low light?
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I have both the FS700 and A7s and 2 7Q's. I film pretty much exclusively in ProRes over RAW because it is so much more manageable both in onset data capturing and in post processing.

The FS700 will give you better coloromitry than the A7s and it is also 10bit vs the A7s 8bit for pushing harder grades. Ultmately, while the A7s is leaps and bounds better with the 7Q+, The FS700 7Q combo still consistently gives me my favorite images over the A7s. Also, with the use of the 7Q on the FS700 , even with only filming in ProRES, there is no issue of color clipping/posterization with LED lights like there is with the A7s. BUT!!! Don't forget you will have to get the RAW Codec Bundle for your 7Q to have access to the FS700's RAW signal whether filming in RAW or ProRES. Normally $1,000 but on sale this month for $795 I believe (April 2016).

It will not compete with the A7s in low light territory. I would say 6400 ISO starts getting too noisy. A speedbooster helps a lot though and also gives you close to full frame look for matching to full frame shooting with the A7s. In addition to having internal built ND's with the FS700, the base ISO is 2,000 instead of A7s 3200 so controlling daylight images is that much easier.


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Ash von Chamier
www.RoughCutProductions.com
 
I have had my FS700 since day 1. I had it on pre-order when it was first announced, almost 4 years on and I'm still using it now with an Odyssey 7Q. Looking back it has been an amazing investment. One thing I would say is that it is not a camera people ask for. Something like the FS7 is. I do a lot of self shooting projects directly for clients but I also work as a DOP for a lot of agencies/production houses in London. I know I have missed out on work purely because some agencies and production houses don't know what an FS700/Odyssey 7q can do and some have never even heard of it. That being said, what I get from my FS700 and Odyssey is almost just as good as the FS7. If I was buying a camera today though, I would spend the extra and get the FS7 as it's a camera people ask for so you may get more work and it's more future proof than a 4 year old FS700. If I didn't have the budget for that, I would spec out a Sony A7S2. Much better internal codec than the FS700, built in image stabliser and it has 4k internally. I will be keeping my FS700 for the foreseeable future and will only look to upgrade when something better comes out in a smaller and lighter body.
 
I agree exactly with boosh. I'm in a similar situation myself, except I mostly work for myself directly with the end client, so the kit I use is never specified (most clients don't care what kit you have!), and for that reason I am keeping the FS700/7Q+ combo as for me it provides just as good an output as the FS7 and is more versatile (the bigger screen of the 7Q+ makes a world of difference).

But agencies/production companies tend to specify either the C300 or FS7, so it all depends on your circumstances.

As boosh says if I was buying fresh today then I would probably get the FS7.

boosh said:
I have had my FS700 since day 1. I had it on pre-order when it was first announced, almost 4 years on and I'm still using it now with an Odyssey 7Q. Looking back it has been an amazing investment. One thing I would say is that it is not a camera people ask for. Something like the FS7 is. I do a lot of self shooting projects directly for clients but I also work as a DOP for a lot of agencies/production houses in London. I know I have missed out on work purely because some agencies and production houses don't know what an FS700/Odyssey 7q can do and some have never even heard of it. That being said, what I get from my FS700 and Odyssey is almost just as good as the FS7. If I was buying a camera today though, I would spend the extra and get the FS7 as it's a camera people ask for so you may get more work and it's more future proof than a 4 year old FS700. If I didn't have the budget for that, I would spec out a Sony A7S2. Much better internal codec than the FS700, built in image stabliser and it has 4k internally. I will be keeping my FS700 for the foreseeable future and will only look to upgrade when something better comes out in a smaller and lighter body.
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I'm a recent FS700 owner...I had been using the FS100 up until last fall, I picked up an FS700R used for a great price ($2,500)...given that the FS5 & FS7 were available I had to take a hard look at what I really needed...ultimately the FS700R and then Odyssey 7Q (which I picked up after) was the way to go for me. I don't shoot much 4K but have it available should the client request it. I have been very happy with the performance I get from the FS700...that and the image on the 7Q shooting in 4KtoHD mode is just oh so lovely, I've compared it with some FS7 material I've seen and while not exactly the same they are close enough.
 
Now that it's well into 2016, what are you guys feelings on the old FS700 now? Seems the FS7 is the "in demand" camera currently. How competitive do you feel the FS700 still is?
 
After using an FS7 and an FS5, I really want an FS5. I think it has made the FS700 irrelevant and I've noticed less people renting my FS700.
 
kaidumo said:
After using an FS7 and an FS5, I really want an FS5. I think it has made the FS700 irrelevant and I've noticed less people renting my FS700.
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I'm digging the fs5 as well. The FS700 still makes beautiful images but I can't see a sustained demand for it as a rental.
 
firehawk said:
image quality wise, how competitive is the FS700 now?
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The Odyssey 7q+ /FS700 combo makes a beautiful image. I don't have anything to measure it against (meaning aside from pixel peeping on vimeo). I still love the image from that combo...but i'm sure there are some guys on here who own multiple 4k products that could give you a better comparison.
 
firehawk said:
image quality wise, how competitive is the FS700 now?
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Don't have any first hand experience comparing them, but all I've heard is that the raw output of the FS700/FS5/FS7 is very similar. Which means that it will hold up image wise as long as you can use the 7Q. But getting that rigged up can be rather time consuming. For jobs where raw or ProRes is overkill the FS5/7 could do them better and faster due to better internal codec and colour... (the same likely holds true with newer cams of other brands).
I'm happy with the image of the FS700/7Q but I have no clue how to make it a workable setup for quick jobs or for hand held. At least not within my budget.
 
When I first bought my A7R2...to compliment my FS700/7Q I was very happy with the results. The 4K XAVC-S files looked great and the camera performed better at higher ISO.

However

Once I finished shooting our pilot episode and had to fully grade both camera's footage, the XAVC stuff just coulnd't hold up nearly as well as the FS700 stuff from the Odyssey. I had to grade down to the A7R2 footage.

Now this really has more to do with the 10 bit Prores from the Odyssey 7Q...but the fact remains (to me) the FS700/7Q combo produces images that are quite competitive with today's cameras. It's by no means trailing behind, other than high ISO performance.
 
I've never had a job where they've requested a specific camera - except for the clueless clients who still ask for a 5DmkII, and you simply tell them you've got something much better.

As such I think I'll add an external recorder to my FS700 rather than upgrade to the FS7 or FS5. It'll give me 4K and Prores, (no need for RAW) as well as getting past the 8/16 seconds slow mo buffer. It'll be much cheaper than upgrading the camera while still ticking all the boxes I want from an upgrade for the foreseeable future.

I'm just waiting to see what the Atomos Shogun Inferno brings to the table before I choose between that and the O7Q+.
 
dmitrizigany said:
I'm happy with the image of the FS700/7Q but I have no clue how to make it a workable setup for quick jobs or for hand held. At least not within my budget.
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I've been wondering this too. I already have rails and a base-plate for use with bigger lenses, so I think I'll extend the rails at the rear and mount the External Recorder there. Then add a second monitor/evf mounted from the left of the camera near the front, and the whole thing should become a nicely balanced shoulder-rig, with the recorder acting as a counter balance. I'd lose the benefit of the recorders 7" screen for monitoring - except for on a tripod - but I think it's the best solution overall for those jobs where you can't afford to spend 15 minutes rebuilding the rig every time you change lenses or switch to handheld. I'll just have to get a larger transport case for it and then I can leave it assembled for everything except air transport.
 
Great thread, here. Many great points!

I think I may be biased because I still use the Fs700/O7Q a lot. But here is my take, echoing what has already been said.

FS700 is not worth it purchased new, if only recording internally. The only good thing about it is that it has internal NDs and decent enough audio inputs/preamps...and 240fps. But many cameras are recording internally at better data rates. The fS700 caps at 24mbps...or 27. Not to mentioned that it's form factor is like an overgrown camcorder, meant to be cradled or held in low mode by the top handle. It works just fine on a tripod, though. But rigging it for shoulder use will require an additional EVF and base plate (par for the course, nowadays). The whole monitor as EVF thing for me is not practical, and bad for your eyes. I have not been able to get any monitor far enough away from my face to use comfortably all day without getting in front of the lens...not to mention that it becomes unbalanced. Your mileage may vary.

However, if you are going to use it with the Odyssey 7Q and you budget a baseplate/rails and an EVF, the specs are super competitive! 12bit 4k RAW or 10bit ProRes. For shoulder work just mount the 7Q behind the camera, similar to a brick battery, and use an EVF. It's not too heavy if you are a used to an Amira or another camera that gives you similar specs.

So in my opinion, the specs with the O7Q are great, and as such, so are the images. It's just the ergonomics that are not very straight forward. But if you do mostly tripod or studio work where you might be building the camera up anyways, then it won't be as big a deal.

But it if most of your jobs are event, doc or run&gun shoots and you mostly just need 10bit HD, then the 12bit 4k RAW may be overkill and you may be better off with an FS7, FS5, etc. They are much more straight forward, and 10bit HD is great!
 
Rafael, do you normally set your camera up as described (7q+ at rear and EVF on left) for handheld/shoulder mount work? If so, how do you find it? Is it easy enough to use and transport without constant assembly?

I agree with you about 4K RAW being overkill, but Prores seems like a great option in those scenarios where you don't need RAW. In fact, I imagine I would shoot most of my stuff in the 4K> HD ProRes mode (depending on which recorder I end up with, and whether or not the Shogun Inferno ends up with this feature).
 
My shoulder is built out this way (7q rear mounted + viewfinder) It's not a perfect solution, but the best I've found. However in my opinion...and depending on your lens choice, in addition to the 7q acting as a counter weight i've also added a padded 3lb straight weight to the back. So when it's all said and done, it's neither a light rig or a small rig. However it is balanced and I can go for hours with it on my shoulder.

Once built, which takes me about 20 minutes, I can drop it on a tripod or throw it on my shoulder. I don't normally store/transport it "built out" so that in itself is a pain. However when I build it out I have a tendency to leave it that way through out the day regardless if I only needed to go handheld for a brief time...which of course can make it a pain in the ass lugging around a large rig for the rest of the day.

There always seems to be a compromise.
 

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deltoidjohn said:
Rafael, do you normally set your camera up as described (7q+ at rear and EVF on left) for handheld/shoulder mount work? If so, how do you find it? Is it easy enough to use and transport without constant assembly?

I agree with you about 4K RAW being overkill, but Prores seems like a great option in those scenarios where you don't need RAW. In fact, I imagine I would shoot most of my stuff in the 4K> HD ProRes mode (depending on which recorder I end up with, and whether or not the Shogun Inferno ends up with this feature).
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When setting the FS700 for shoulder work, yes, I set it up with baseplate and EVF. When recording to odyssey, it views on the back. but I find myself not shooting on the shoulder often because it is not as well set up for that. Instead, I strip it as light as possible. Top handle, with the odyssey mounted upside down where the fs700 would normally be (via a cold-shoe ball joint). And I shoot with lightweight primes a lot...or light/short zoom. I find the EVFs bulky, and baseplate, bric battery, mattebox, only bring out the worst in the Fs700. Once you put a heavy zoom lens and a follow focus, the odyssey will be the least of your worries. For gigs that will require a lot of shoulder work and won't need 4k raw, you'd be better off with an FS7.

It does get tiring after an 8 hour day of shooting on your wrists and forearms with just the 7Q and top handle. But even then, I find I get more controlled handheld cradling it, or holding it slightly in front of my chest area.

I actually find myself shooting mostly 4k RAW on the FS700. I have 4 x 256GB SSDs for a total of 1hr recording time at 24fps. Shooting scripted work is not too cumbersome if you can be wrangling data as you shoot. So for me, the FS700 is the best way to get 12bit 4k RAW at a sub US$5k. Don't get me wrong, though. For longer days without options for a lot of data wrangling, I can record over 600 minutes of 10bit ProRes at 2048...which is also really good! It's just that when I'm not recording 4k raw, I wish I had an fs5 every time ;)

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