Ben_B
Veteran
That's fair enough that you don't see that it looks bad but most that watch your video shot like that probably will, just fair warning.
theory 30 to 24p
- Thread starter Park Edwards
- Start date
That's fair enough that you don't see that it looks bad but most that watch your video shot like that probably will, just fair warning.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
Whilst on the subject of 30p... is it 100% smooth? I don't think so. It's not like 60p.
24p with a 1/30 shutter actually looks very similar to 30p with a 1/30 shutter IMO
24p with a 1/30 shutter actually looks very similar to 30p with a 1/30 shutter IMO
Ben_B
Veteran
Well, you can look at the footage I posted...it looks pretty smooth in the pan and the car movement to me (aside from the dropped frames) the people walking are a little choppier, but still, pretty smooth... dropping out every 7th frame doesn't change the fact that the change in each of the 6 frames before and after each dropped frame is still smaller than 24p...so it still looks like 30p.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
Could 30p be turned to 60i, and then pulldown used to extract 24p footage? What I don't get, is that the GH1 records 24p in a 60i wrapper, yet you'd think by deinterlacing it you'd get 30p, not 24p. It must skip frames in 60i mode to achieve the 24p look.
Rory_B
Well-known member
It doesn't skip frames, it simply uses a similar scheme as the dvx100 uses to record progressive frames onto tape. Except the dvx footage doesn't record in a long GOP format, so that might account for why you'd almost think the gh1 skips frames.
If you use the dvx in 24p mode instead of 24pA, you need to remove the 3:2 pulldown through cinema tools or compressor to get 24p footage. Gh1 is basically the same thing, but in a GOP scheme like I mentioned.
If you use the dvx in 24p mode instead of 24pA, you need to remove the 3:2 pulldown through cinema tools or compressor to get 24p footage. Gh1 is basically the same thing, but in a GOP scheme like I mentioned.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
I see. So because of the rate at which the camera captures footage and the footage itself, the two become inseparable and post-tricks can only give the faint illusion of 24p, not the real deal. That's why it's impossible to get the 24p 'look' from 30p?
Rory_B
Well-known member
I guess that is a way to look at it. True 24p cannot be replaced by a conversion no matter how much you play with the original footage.
That's why those old sony movie modes sucked ass.
The best method I've seen so far in regards of creating 24p from 30p footage is this workflow.
1. Cut video in 30 fps timeline
2. Create copy of finished edit so you'll have two clips, one to convert to 24p and one to preserve audio.
2. Open Cinema Tool (part of Final Cut Studio), File, "Open Clip", choose "Conform", specify "23.98" to conform to.
Explanation: This keeps the same number of frames in the clip, it only changes the timebase from 30fps to 24fps, essentially creates overcranked footage by 6 frames, (desirable on some shots). As a result this makes the clip longer and slows the audio down which is undesirable where audio is important. At this point you've already created a copy of the original clip therefore preserving the original audio which we'll relink later in Final Cut.
3. Open compressor 3 and specify deliverable format and destination. Now open the inspector window so we can do some tweaking. Under "Frame Controls" tab, click the button to the right of "Frame Controls:" to enable this feature. Once enabled, select "On" for "Frame Controls:" Underneath the "Retiming Control" section is where we'll make changes. For "Set Duration to:" click the radio button where it will allow us to put in a duration. NOW THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART, OPEN THE COPY OF THE CLIP WE CREATED THAT STILL HAS THE 30 FPS TIMEBASE AND PUT IT INTO THE FINAL CUT PRO TIMELINE, DELETE THE VIDEO TRACK AND ENSURE THE TIMEBASE OF THE SEQUENCE IS SET TO 23.98, GO TO THE END OF THE AUDIO AND READ THE TIMECODE, THIS WAY WE'RE ENSURING THAT WE'RE RETIMING (SPEEDING BACK UP) THE CLIP SO IT WILL MATCH THE ORIGINAL AUDIO. This number is the timecode you'll put into the duration field, (example01:08:01:06) then depending on how well you want the footage to look also taking into consideration the time it will require to compress it choose the desired quality under "Rate Conversion:". I choose, "Best (High quality motion compesnation)" to get superb results, however this increases the compression time.
Important: Make sure that no matter which codec you use that it remains as a 23.98 fps timebase.
4. Now take the treated clip into Final Cut, we've already set up the sequence from step 3. Add the clip to video track 1, relink and presto!
I've extensively tested this and find it to be the best way to convert 30p to 24p for the time being, or atleast until and hopefully Canon comes up with a firmware to address the issue.
Additional Tips: If you have multiple clips to treat, in Cinema Tools, choose "Batch Conform" locate one file where all the files are located. Then setup batch conversions in compressor, if you have a quad core or 8 core configure Q master to take advantage of all cores otherwise it will take longer..
Even then every time I've tried it, it takes FOREVER and it doesn't look as good as real 24p, you can still see there's issues with it no matter what.
But lots of people on the 5D forum stand by this workflow method. I still see plenty of issues.
That's why those old sony movie modes sucked ass.
The best method I've seen so far in regards of creating 24p from 30p footage is this workflow.
1. Cut video in 30 fps timeline
2. Create copy of finished edit so you'll have two clips, one to convert to 24p and one to preserve audio.
2. Open Cinema Tool (part of Final Cut Studio), File, "Open Clip", choose "Conform", specify "23.98" to conform to.
Explanation: This keeps the same number of frames in the clip, it only changes the timebase from 30fps to 24fps, essentially creates overcranked footage by 6 frames, (desirable on some shots). As a result this makes the clip longer and slows the audio down which is undesirable where audio is important. At this point you've already created a copy of the original clip therefore preserving the original audio which we'll relink later in Final Cut.
3. Open compressor 3 and specify deliverable format and destination. Now open the inspector window so we can do some tweaking. Under "Frame Controls" tab, click the button to the right of "Frame Controls:" to enable this feature. Once enabled, select "On" for "Frame Controls:" Underneath the "Retiming Control" section is where we'll make changes. For "Set Duration to:" click the radio button where it will allow us to put in a duration. NOW THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART, OPEN THE COPY OF THE CLIP WE CREATED THAT STILL HAS THE 30 FPS TIMEBASE AND PUT IT INTO THE FINAL CUT PRO TIMELINE, DELETE THE VIDEO TRACK AND ENSURE THE TIMEBASE OF THE SEQUENCE IS SET TO 23.98, GO TO THE END OF THE AUDIO AND READ THE TIMECODE, THIS WAY WE'RE ENSURING THAT WE'RE RETIMING (SPEEDING BACK UP) THE CLIP SO IT WILL MATCH THE ORIGINAL AUDIO. This number is the timecode you'll put into the duration field, (example01:08:01:06) then depending on how well you want the footage to look also taking into consideration the time it will require to compress it choose the desired quality under "Rate Conversion:". I choose, "Best (High quality motion compesnation)" to get superb results, however this increases the compression time.
Important: Make sure that no matter which codec you use that it remains as a 23.98 fps timebase.
4. Now take the treated clip into Final Cut, we've already set up the sequence from step 3. Add the clip to video track 1, relink and presto!
I've extensively tested this and find it to be the best way to convert 30p to 24p for the time being, or atleast until and hopefully Canon comes up with a firmware to address the issue.
Additional Tips: If you have multiple clips to treat, in Cinema Tools, choose "Batch Conform" locate one file where all the files are located. Then setup batch conversions in compressor, if you have a quad core or 8 core configure Q master to take advantage of all cores otherwise it will take longer..
Even then every time I've tried it, it takes FOREVER and it doesn't look as good as real 24p, you can still see there's issues with it no matter what.
But lots of people on the 5D forum stand by this workflow method. I still see plenty of issues.
Park Edwards
Veteran
i dress bad and that doesn't seem to stop me. thanks though.
Park Edwards
Veteran
i saw this a while ago on bloom's blog, but problem is, i don't have mac. i'm not too worried anyway. the whole idea was to use mjpeg for anything action oriented that would be heavy on the codec. 60p will probably be fine. just wanted more options.
Nitsuj
Well-known member
That sounds like a lot of tedious work to manually remove frames. I wouldn't go that route. Try researching what others have done to overcome that obstacle because I know this is a common subject. I just found this thread here http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=147773
Also check out the Canon Mark II's forum because I'm sure there is a lot of info there.
Also check out the Canon Mark II's forum because I'm sure there is a lot of info there.
Park Edwards
Veteran
it really wasn't. took like 5mins to remove the frames and render time was a joke. maybe 1min to output and 2mins to render image sequence.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
The rendering does go quick. I've tried it myself. But the tedious bit for me is having 1 hour of footage and having to go through a time line 1 hour long in SECONDS, removing frames from every SECOND of video!! THAT is a joke.
Park Edwards
Veteran
well, the general consensus is that people are having long render times converting 30p to 24p. obviously the joke is on you if you're really going to sit through a time line to delete frames. nobody mentioned a timeline BUT you.
delete the frames in finder or explorer. you know, like deleting a file? it took very little time to selecting the files that needed to be deleted. but whatever. hop off the thread man if this isn't for you.
Ben_B
Veteran
Someone could easily write a script to do this for you...
the problem is that it really doesn't make the footage look like 24p. I notice the frame drops also.
However, this is a quick way to get your 30p footage to conform to your 24p timeline, and might be useful if you accidentally flicked shutter speed slower, or if you really needed to shoot a few seconds MJPEG (which I wouldn't do anyway because I don't like the look.)
the problem is that it really doesn't make the footage look like 24p. I notice the frame drops also.
However, this is a quick way to get your 30p footage to conform to your 24p timeline, and might be useful if you accidentally flicked shutter speed slower, or if you really needed to shoot a few seconds MJPEG (which I wouldn't do anyway because I don't like the look.)
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
Car3o without wanting to get personal I really do think you should read threads properly before commenting. The timeline thing wasn't mentioned by me at all. It wasn't my idea.
Despite it being time consuming I think the person who suggested it deserves at least a bit of credit and respect for moving the conversation on and getting us thinking about the issue of 30p to 24p in more detail.
I am not sure what you mean by deleting frames in finder or explorer like deleting files.
You are also wrong on the general consensus. This is that 30p to 24p rendering time is actually very quick but you can never get good results. The only way to have proper 24p footage is to shoot it as 24p. That's the general consensus of the entire film making community not just this forum, and I'm glad to put the record straight on that one!!
Anyway, interesting thread. Got me thinking more about how frame rates work.
Despite it being time consuming I think the person who suggested it deserves at least a bit of credit and respect for moving the conversation on and getting us thinking about the issue of 30p to 24p in more detail.
I am not sure what you mean by deleting frames in finder or explorer like deleting files.
You are also wrong on the general consensus. This is that 30p to 24p rendering time is actually very quick but you can never get good results. The only way to have proper 24p footage is to shoot it as 24p. That's the general consensus of the entire film making community not just this forum, and I'm glad to put the record straight on that one!!
Anyway, interesting thread. Got me thinking more about how frame rates work.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
There is probably existing software that uses this trick in it's 30p to 24p conversion routine anyway. The problem is not so much that it's time consuming or cannot be done - it's that it doesn't work very well
If anyone else has any ideas, the entire video software industry would love to hear from you
I say that entirely seriously not to belittle. Keep the ideas coming...Park Edwards
Veteran
seems like you mentioned timeline to me. weird. either way. you're not really helpful in disproving or proving my theory. this wasn't, hey this way is better. it was hey, what do others think about it working. so, like i said man there are other threads for you. thanks though.
Park Edwards
Veteran
i'm not too worried...i'll reiterate from before about how it was an idea, and i'll probably just shoot 60p. but, in the mean time, it was an idea and wanted some theories whether or not it would work, not whether or not people would like it. but your demonstration was helpful.
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Rory_B
Well-known member
Usually when someone asks if something will work, they imply do people like it(especially for a 30p-24p conversion) . So I think that's why you're getting a lot of opinion on whether it looks good or not.
Just about anything someone tries can work; however, just because it works on a technical level doesn't mean it works on an aesthetic one.
But everyone can express their artistic wants and desires however they see fit obviousy.
Just about anything someone tries can work; however, just because it works on a technical level doesn't mean it works on an aesthetic one.
But everyone can express their artistic wants and desires however they see fit obviousy.
Park Edwards
Veteran
right, that's cool, but the majority of the people here are technofiles. they're biased and not necessarily open minded when it comes to what the general audience would find approving. that's all.
hell, there was a 2460 page debate whether or not 30p was the new 24p. split right down the middle. so it's kind of subjective.
hell, there was a 2460 page debate whether or not 30p was the new 24p. split right down the middle. so it's kind of subjective.