theory 30 to 24p

I think the technofiles are the most open minded and least arrogant to be honest.

Only a technofile will change is mind entirely when new facts are presented to him. In a technofile's world, all that matters are facts. Sometimes it's like living in an autistic day dream.

Of course 30p versus 24p is subjective. Like taste in music as well.

But on a technical level, we found that 30p to 24p doesn't go therefore the theory didn't work and it isn't just 'technofiles being biased and closed minded' as you so eloquently put it.
 
commanderspike said:
I think the technofiles are the most open minded and least arrogant to be honest.

Only a technofile will change is mind entirely when new facts are presented to him. In a technofile's world, all that matters are facts. Sometimes it's like living in an autistic day dream.

Of course 30p versus 24p is subjective. Like taste in music as well.

But on a technical level, we found that 30p to 24p doesn't go therefore the theory didn't work and it isn't just 'technofiles being biased and closed minded' as you so eloquently put it.
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"we"....hehe. i'll let the ball stay in your court.
 
Car3o said:
dropping frames, yes, but dropping the right frames every second could lead to better results. can you notice 1 frame being dropped? That's 41 miliseconds a frame. The human eye can't possibly see a single frame dropped every 291.2 miliseconds.
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Then can the human eye tell if the frames are not dropped?
There's a certain lunacy amongst the 24fps crowd, me thinks.
 
The issue is not just the frame drop, which yes, is noticeable! especially on handheld footage or footage with a lot of lateral movement...you notice the missing frame because of how smooth the surrounding footage is...which brings me to my second point. Converting 30p to 24p with this method does nothing to change the look of the footage to be more like 24p. This is why: video is just a bunch of frames stuck together, we see the video as smooth or choppy depending on how many frames per second there are (shutter speeds being equal.) This is because we see the difference between the frames...the more frames there are, the less perceptible the difference, and the smoother the image looks. When frames are dropped in this manner it does nothing to address the fact that for the 6 frames between each drop there is less of a difference between each frame because it was recorded at 30p, rather than 24p. Therefore, it still looks smooth to us, like 30p, not like 24p. We do not need to perceive the single frame being dropped (which we can do in many situations) but rather still perceive the subtelty of the changes in the frames, a level of which indicates a 30p look to us, even though the footage is, as far as the computer knows, 24p.
 
I can tell you from viewing footage that 30p converted to 24p by simply dropping frames does indeed look extra "stuttery." This was footage that I did not know was converted that way. In fact, I was wondering two things when I first viewed the footage: (1) Why does it look more like 24p than 30p? And (2) why does it look so "stuttery"? When I learned what had been done, it all made sense...
 
As an older video production guy, I'm used to the smoothness of 30 fps. And as a movie buff, I appreciate 24p. Have to say that if I were editing a piece and was given that car in the snow clip, the only way I'd use it would be if it was an essential shot and there was no alternative. In other words, as a last resort. In my view, the way it is, it's unusable due to the obvious stuttering. In fact, the stuttering is so obvious and distracting, it makes it difficult to even evaluate whether it looks more like 30 fps or 24p.
 
Imagine a train moving through a shot. Yeah you train spotter :)

It's travelling fast, and moves from one end of the shot to the other at a constant speed in 1 second.

If it's shot at 30p, each frame is equally spaced as the train moves through the shot. Same in 24p.

The problem is, to drop 30p to 24p you have to drop 6 frames. If you drop them all in a row, say the last 6 frames of the 1 second long footage, you get a big jerky gap every second of footage that passes, where the train jerks forwards. Missing frames is what causes stuttering.

If you took the frames out at equal intervals, the jump of the train's motion would be smaller but still noticeable to the human eye against the otherwise smooth movement until the regular small jumps.

To prevent this you'd have to redistribute the frames but this would mean inventing frames showing movement which wasn't recorded. It's an impossible task unfortunately.
 
Kerplunk said:
As an older video production guy, I'm used to the smoothness of 30 fps. And as a movie buff, I appreciate 24p. Have to say that if I were editing a piece and was given that car in the snow clip, the only way I'd use it would be if it was an essential shot and there was no alternative. In other words, as a last resort. In my view, the way it is, it's unusable due to the obvious stuttering. In fact, the stuttering is so obvious and distracting, it makes it difficult to even evaluate whether it looks more like 30 fps or 24p.
Click to expand...

Is 30fps smooth like 60fps? Or is it closer to 24p?

In my view, it's not 100% smooth like 60i video or 60p film.
 
Not having done much with 60 fps, can't really say. However, maybe my eye for dropped frames is more critical than most due to having started in video with a Mac IIci with 128MB of RAM. Yes, you read that right. Had to digitize frame-by-frame using a 3/4 deck. Ten seconds of video took 2 hours to digitize. And synchronization between the 3/4 deck, a TrueVision card, a DiaQuest controller, and the Mac was very tricky so had to be constantly on the lookout for dropped frames. We are truly spoiled today (yeah, I know -- "Why, I used to walk 10 miles to school thru waist deep snow drifts...":smile: . And I didn't even touch upon what needed to be done to create proxies (160x120), edit (VideoScripter prior to Premiere 1.0) and then go back out to tape.
 
24p

http://www.adrive.com/public/9389b0cc9757dbd5164c8720a8d6dbeb7da4dea47931aa5c576c2acbbb1180e7.html

30p

http://www.adrive.com/public/ef0485f365c331433468260e514d6c10f205a4305d0933f3a07a47edc93854f0.html

this is just my take. i think it's acceptable for trying get 24p out of 30p, if you have to. no long render times involved. i haven't synced audio yet, but i'm sure i could. to my eyes, i don't see 30p whatsoever, after viewing the original 30p file. if it pans or there is a lot of movement, then the dropped frames come into play, however, if it's action oriented in quick edits are involved, i don't know if you'll notice the jerky frames. if shot on a low shutter speed, it might be acceptable. once again, this is MY opinion.

also, i deleted every 5th frame.
footage found on vimeo. 5d mk2
 
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