FX6: The Sony ILME-FX6V Owners Club

Ben Scott said:
Finally did my first proper job with the FX6 as work picks up.

Alongside 2 x FS7s it is very clearly a better quality image. Deals with saturated colours far better too.

With a Ninja V on the back for monitoring it was a great asset to the production and its quirks were minimised.
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S-LOG3? If so, are you monitoring with the same MLUT, yet one look better than the other?

If not using S-LOG3, what paint settings on the FS7 were you using? What paint settings on the FX6? When you say one looked far better than the other it would be good to know the settings they were using at the time.
 
All cine EI. Slog3 cine.

Monitoring via s709 LUT.

In an environment with loads of uncontrollable highly saturated LED fixtures. Was a gaming space but I guess not unlike a bar environment.

It felt like the FS7s couldn't cope with the colour (as if red or blue channels were blowing out earlier) as well as the FX6 which took it all in its stride and didn't have any of the casts of the FS7.

Just an observation.
 
Ben Scott said:
All cine EI. Slog3 cine.
Monitoring via s709 LUT.
In an environment with loads of uncontrollable highly saturated LED fixtures. Was a gaming space but I guess not unlike a bar environment.
It felt like the FS7s couldn't cope with the colour (as if red or blue channels were blowing out earlier) as well as the FX6 which took it all in its stride and didn't have any of the casts of the FS7.
Just an observation.
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If I understand right, the FX6 looked better but that was only judging all three cameras while running the exact same MLUT. Is that correct? Also you were judging them on the same monitor or model of monitor? How big? 10-bit?
Monitoring doesn't matter very much because MLUTs are just smoke and mirrors while shooting.
The important thing is how they all graded out in post. Are you doing that yourself or will you be able to get a report back from someone else who does the grading? THAT is the only step in the whole workflow that really matters.
I would like to hear how they matched in the final edit and which camera looked better if there was any difference at all.
 
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I was just making observations on my findings on the day. Using the exact same monitor receiving a log image out of the camera. Not the same model of monitor. The exact same one.

Regard or disregard/ignore those observations as you see fit.

I have literally managed post-production facilities in London's Soho and in the past worked post on some of the most popular TV shows in the country and I really don't need a lecture on workflow or its importance.

Not everything has to be an argument, Doug. It's either useful information to someone or it isn't. I have literally zero interest in someone who wasn't there telling me I am wrong.
 
Ben Scott said:
I was just making observations on my findings on the day. Using the exact same monitor receiving a log image out of the camera. Not the same model of monitor. The exact same one.

Regard or disregard/ignore those observations as you see fit. I have literally managed post-production facilities in London's Soho and in the past worked post on some of the most popular TV shows in the country and I really don't need a lecture on workflow or its importance. Not everything has to be an argument, Doug. It's either useful information to someone or it isn't. I have literally zero interest in someone who wasn't there telling me I am wrong.
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Who the fu%$k is arguing with you? Who said you were wrong??? Have I been disrespectful in some way? I'm just asking questions to dig deeper in your obersvations, and explaining why I think that information would be important to know. Is that a problem? Go back and read your earlier post and see if it doesn't deserve to have a little more detail given. What the hell is wrong with you that you can't answer a few questions to clarify your first post? Why even bother posting if you don't want to be questioned about it. Holy crap people are so thin skinned around here. Wow.
 
You literally just questioned my findings and said it doesn't matter what my observations were because all that matters is what can and can't be graded out in post.

Happy to asked about the methodology but you went straight to 'let me tell you this...' etc etc.

As for being thin-skinned, I'd suggest if I went somewhere and had arguments with just about everyone I interacted with in that place, I'd ask more questions of the way I comport myself rather than just guess it must be everyone else.
 
As someone who has "iterally managed post-production facilities in London's Soho" I am surprised you'd post such superficial observations without any details about the cameras whatsoever.

Ben Scott said:
Alongside 2 x FS7s it is very clearly a better quality image. Deals with saturated colours far better too.
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You honestly don't think that kind of blanket statement deserves a more detailed explanation???? And then you get pissed when someone has to ask for those details?

Okay, let me get this right:
1) I can ask questions as long as they stay within your guidelines -- whatever those may be.
2) Assume that all questions will be treated as arguing and insulting.
3) I should not add any opinions or commentary to explain why I think additional information is necessary to put put the observations into context.
4) I should Keep any commentary to myself even though this is a forum for open discussion.
5) I should take your observations at face value and not ask for additional details, no matter how useless those observations are without additional information about the circumstances or settings.
Got it.
 
You know what you said.

I would have been absolutely happy to discuss what my methodology was. Not happy to be lectured. You went straight to dismissal with your blanket 'it doesn't matter about abc, all that matters is xyz' comment. And then subsequently a level of patronisation above that life is way too short for.

Not only do I not wish to have an argument with you about my findings, I CERTAINLY have no interest in having an argument with you about having an argument.
 
Ben,
I often get annoyed with Doug , but in this case i would want to ask the same questions. Your methodology may be perfect but people post observations all the time that aren't based on careful comparisons . Especially when posting such a surprising conclusion about the difference between FS7 and FX9 I remain wary until I know a lot more about how you compared them .
In this case its a very consequential observation that could affect buying, renting even what camera a producer demands on his job, so its not just a casual thought.
I'm quite exacting myself and would expect my friends to ask me the same questions, in fact I welcome them just to be sure I didn't have a glitch in my workflow.
No disrespect intended at all.
 
ahalpert said:
"I can't figure out why you stupid idiots keep getting offended by the things I say. Sheesh."
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Ha, ha. Good one. There's a lot of smart people on this forum, but if someone can't handle a few questions or defend their opinion or practices without getting offended, let the chips fall where they may.
 
LennyLevy said:
Ben,
I often get annoyed with Doug , but in this case i would want to ask the same questions. Your methodology may be perfect but people post observations all the time that aren't based on careful comparisons . Especially when posting such a surprising conclusion about the difference between FS7 and FX9 I remain wary until I know a lot more about how you compared them .
In this case its a very consequential observation that could affect buying, renting even what camera a producer demands on his job, so its not just a casual thought.
I'm quite exacting myself and would expect my friends to ask me the same questions, in fact I welcome them just to be sure I didn't have a glitch in my workflow.
No disrespect intended at all.
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It's a new day and I really don't want to draw out an argument any further or even defend being irked but here we go.

Sure I get that one might want to know more before deciding if the observation is of any use to them. The particulars of the environment were quite unique anyway and so not always relevent.

I was not annoyed by someone asking me to expand on the shoot and the a/b test we did before doing certain shots on the FX6. That's natural and I am happy to expand on stuff.

It was the other dismissive 'ignore your findings it only matters what you can grade' bit that wound me up compounded with the patronising breakdown of bullet points that followed.

The bloke made some tutorial videos. He's not Yoda.

I have had individual colour channels blow out on the FS7 many times in the past when I was an owner. The observation was simply that the FX6 handled the same problem shot with ease. While some might like more info and some might not be interested I didn't really feel this was something that warranted the 'let me tell you about a little thing called post production' spiel.

I know Doug is always quite forthright and gruff. He has the right to be however he wants to be. And others have a right to to find it endearing or rude as they wish. He caught me on a bad day.
 
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And to expand on the day.

it was an A/B between two cameras swapping between the same zoom lens and feeding the same monitor with these overhead venue lighting RGBWs in frame based on what we had seen on earlier shots, which was the FS7 having a noticeable cast in some of the shots compared to the FX6, which I've come to know as when it gets a bit funny with oversaturated colour.

Cine-EI. Exposures and focal length matched.

After that test we went ahead with the FX6 for those particular shots. That's about it.

Not particularly scientific but also not redundant as a test as it is precisely the sort of on-set decision one makes multiple times per shoot, especially if using various types of camera.
 
Thanks Ben, Interesting observation. I don't doubt your observation but can't help being a little skeptical that there would be such a huge leap in the chip design - though it is certainly possible. There were settings in the Matrix of the FS7 that would affect saturation like the adaptive matrix and the multi-matrix and I wonder if those kinds of settings were tweaked differently in the FX6 and maybe in the other new cameras for matter as it was set up for Cine Ei. Of course that wouldn't matter as the FX6 would still handle the issue better than the FS7 regardless of why.

Even more likely I wonder also if you exposed the FX6 at the default exposure for Slog but as most do, overexposed on the FS7 . That might reduce your headroom for color as well as exposure. Again though who cares why as long as the difference is there. I'm guessing you were in a theatrical situation with over saturated LED lights? That would explain why most people haven't noticed the issue or the difference in the cameras as its not a daily occurance. I just sold my FS7 so i can't test and don't have any of those lights anyway. I've certainly been burned by oversaturated LED's though probably not in Log.

re: Doug. I can understand being annoyed and agree he's not Yoda and can be rude. I have a friend who just bought an FS7 and Doug's book and thinks its gospel. I'm forever trying to explain to her why I completely disagree with his advise about exposure and don't like many of his settings - "Trust me, I've been doing this for 35 years .... He's just a guy who wrote a book! ..." I enjoy his presence on the forums though and never get angry . Keeps it lively. But i'm from the East Coast.
 
It was a Red Bull Gaming environment so yes, lots of tacky 'event' LEDs for want of a better phrase. Exposures matched on waveform but the respective cameras' base EIs are 800/2000 respectively on paper - real world we know they are much closer.

All settings were as stock as stock can be. Red Dragon sensors used to have a very similar problem that was fixed in a firmware update so it may well be as much colour science and pipeline issue and not simply the characteristics of a sensor, but that said the FS7 is pretty old by now and it was never the greatest thing since sliced bread when it came out and sony's usual 'firmware update' is to release a new camera.

As for never getting angry, it's all very well until you break your toe 5mins before your shoot starts and THEN you go on DVXUSER!
 
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