The Skinny on EX1 Audio

basspig

Veteran
I’ve done some recording out in the field with the PMW-EX1 and have made some observations about the gain staging setup used internal to the camera and how to set the attenuators to achieve the best dynamic range out of the camera.
My stereo mic of choice is the Rode NT4. Last Saturday, I recorded the Kent Singers, a choir group of 20 singers, accompanied by piano and guitar, in a small New England church.
The Rode NT4 has a sensitivity of -38dBv. Given this, I set the EX1’s attenuators for -38dB, as a starting point.
I found that on a lively number, the choir’s SPL at 12’ was sufficient to not only hit the limiters, but to achieve some clipping, where the limiters were not fast enough.
I backed off the attenuator settings by 6dB for each channel and that seemed to free the system from dynamic compression and clipping. However, during applause segments, heavy limiting was audible.
I discovered with studio testing with a very loud sound system, that a setting of -11dB on the mic attenuators would allow recording of the loudest live music/bands in existence without any clipping or compression.

GAIN STAGING:
There evidently are TWO limiters in the EX1: One appears just downstream of the attenuators; the other downstream of the record level controls.
This can be observed by feeding signal to the camera’s input jacks at gradually-increasing levels, while the record levels are set to 5. At some point, the sound will start to take on a “broadcast on the radio” quality, as the dynamics will be flattened out. Turning down the record level won’t change this compression effect, though it will reduce the record level going on to the SxS card.
The only way to remove the effects of the input limiter is to increase the amount of input attenuation. The smaller the number, the greater the attenuation. The numbers refer to the signal level that is needed to be present to achieve a reference recording level. Since they are negative numbers, smaller is bigger. By increasing the attenuator setting (so it is less sensitive) the signal peaks will be reduced below the limiter threshold and the sound will pass pretty much un-altered.
Even if you set the attenuation correctly, you can still hit a secondary limiter if your record level is too high. I find that a setting of 5 is optimal. Any higher than 6 and there will be an increase in the noise floor. If you need more gain to record quiet content, like nature sounds, it is more effective to reduce input attenuation than to turn up the record gain.
An observation about the Auto gain control setting: it completely ignores your input attenuator settings. The camera will not be able to handle high SPL situations in Auto. Use Manual gain and set levels conservatively. You can always normalize in post, but you can’t fix badly-compressed and clipped audio in post.
In conclusion, if you want to get the most out of the audio system on the EX1, you must set both the attenuators AND the record gain appropriately for the situation.
Here are my suggestions, vis-à-vis the Rode NT4 (dB SPL levels are peak, not average):
Quiet nature scenes, SPLs under 70dB. Set attenuator for -38dB (good to 106dB)
Small acoustic or singing ensembles. Set attenuator for -32 or -29dB (good to 115dB)
Jazz ensembles with moderate amplification. Set for -23 or -20dB (good to 124dB)
Loud disco or rock band concerts. Set for -14 or -11dB (good to 133dB SPL)
Fireworks should use the -14dB range, if you’re close enough to need earplugs.
​
Record level of 5 will pretty much provide full-scale (full scale without limiting is 3 dots short of the red dot on the EX1’s audio level meter scale). A level of 6 will push things toward more limiting on the secondary limiter stage and a little more hiss from the preamp. 5 is really pretty optimal, with adjustments to attenuators for expected maximum SPL.
With careful adjustment for the given situation, the EX1 can provide near-audiophile-quality recordings of musical, pyrotechnic and natural sound events without the need for separate audio recording methods.

 
Finally

Finally

Hey man I'm glad you posted some real audio info about the EX1.

I am planning on buying an EX1 in a month or 2 when I get another couple grand together. I am an audio guy mainly, but I make my money doing video. I wasn't even aware this camera had built in attenuators, much less 2 limiting stages! That is awesome news.

Right now I use a VX2100 with the Greg Winter audio mod, with a Sound Devices MixPre semi permanently attached to my camera. I get pretty great audio with that setup. I have 2 in-line attenuators to protect the input from clipping with loud music, and the mixPre's limiters protect the rest.


Would you say that the EX1 is clean enough to forget about using a mixer like the MicPre? I'd love to ditch the extra weight. I also record plays using a Rode NT4 in the center going into the camera, and a pair of NT3s ( one on either side of the stage) recorded with an Edirol R4 Pro. Is the self noise of the camera pretty low in your opinion? Or would you suggest boosting the signal with a mixer for situations with silence like a play. Many times I need to boost quiet speaking actors in post, and a clean signal is most important there.

Take care man. I know this is an old post, but maybe you'll still get my response.

Chadfish

www.humboldtmusic.com/chadjohnson
 
If I were you and you can handle the extra bulk, I'd go with the Sound Devices mic pre and feed a line-level signal into the EX1. The SD gear has SUCH good mic pre's compared to the Sony. However, if mobility is paramount, then go with Mark's advice and pay careful attention the the levels. If I have any long-form recordings to shoot, I'll feed the signals first through my SD722 and then take line-level out of the '722 into the EX1.
 
Chadfish,
I should update this thread with the addition of the 1.11 firmware performance data because the new fw significantly improves the audio dynamic range of the camera. Apparently, the old fw had set the limiter threshold at about -6dB below clipping, which necessitated setting very low record levels. The new fw aligns the limiter nicely at the clip level and 'ducking' artifacts are greatly reduced with percussive sounds, such as applause, snare drums and other fast attack sounds.
It is my opinion that the quality is about equivalent to a good DAT recorder now. s/n tests at over 90dB, and in practice, I find no problems with using low record levels and then normalizing in post.
The preamps seem to be quiet enough, especially with a hot condensor like the NT4 that I use. Hiss is never a problem. And if you hook up large diaphragm studio condensers, you'll get audiophile-sounding pickup, great for concerts and pyrotechnic events.
IMHO, the audio is too good for the vast majority of videographers to really appreciated. 90% of the video people I have debated this issue with felt that the narrowband response of Sony's other prosumer cam, the V1U, was good enough. Only about 2 people in fifty actually notice the lack of bass on the V1U, and thus appreciate the EX1 for its audio, in addition to its picture.
It can't be stressed enough, that the 1.11 firmware corrects the one major flaw that the EX1 suffered in earlier fw. The audio is now top-flight. Use the internal preamps with confidence.
 
Excellent point, Mark. I'm still on the older firmware so my preferences are based on the older, crankier audio system.
 
It can't be stressed enough, that the 1.11 firmware corrects the one major flaw that the EX1 suffered in earlier fw. The audio is now top-flight. Use the internal preamps with confidence.

And would I be right in thinking that the 1.11 update has banished that 'tinkling' from sub-bass? I do quite a few corporate events with the inevitable big band and DJ and used to thank the lucky stars that my audio was for editing guide only. Sub Bass had the tinkles all over it:

http://www.mdma.tv/ex1/sub_bass.mov

As, come to think of it, I haven't had this problem since the update. :) But of course such low frequencies can pop out of nowhere, especially passing cars modded by males of less than 30 years. And they travel long distances (from band rehearsals in the same venue).

So that problem's gone? Seems so. Or should we still worry?

OTOH when getting a line feed from a PA system, I've found the Z1's audio to be unburstable and embarassingly good (in DV mode!). Perhaps I should trust the EX1's sound channels more with 1.11?
 
Chadfish,
I should update this thread with the addition of the 1.11 firmware performance data because the new fw significantly improves the audio dynamic range of the camera. Apparently, the old fw had set the limiter threshold at about -6dB below clipping, which necessitated setting very low record levels. The new fw aligns the limiter nicely at the clip level and 'ducking' artifacts are greatly reduced with percussive sounds, such as applause, snare drums and other fast attack sounds.
It is my opinion that the quality is about equivalent to a good DAT recorder now. s/n tests at over 90dB, and in practice, I find no problems with using low record levels and then normalizing in post.
The preamps seem to be quiet enough, especially with a hot condensor like the NT4 that I use. Hiss is never a problem. And if you hook up large diaphragm studio condensers, you'll get audiophile-sounding pickup, great for concerts and pyrotechnic events.
IMHO, the audio is too good for the vast majority of videographers to really appreciated. 90% of the video people I have debated this issue with felt that the narrowband response of Sony's other prosumer cam, the V1U, was good enough. Only about 2 people in fifty actually notice the lack of bass on the V1U, and thus appreciate the EX1 for its audio, in addition to its picture.
It can't be stressed enough, that the 1.11 firmware corrects the one major flaw that the EX1 suffered in earlier fw. The audio is now top-flight. Use the internal preamps with confidence.


Does that mean with FW 1.11 you can now go higher than 5 on the external audio levels knobs? I was always advised to keep it at max 5 and raise it in the internal menus when needed.
 
IMHO, the audio is too good for the vast majority of videographers to really appreciated.

It can't be stressed enough, that the 1.11 firmware corrects the one major flaw that the EX1 suffered in earlier fw. The audio is now top-flight. Use the internal preamps with confidence.

Hi Mark.

Yes it's true. Many videographers know/care nothing about audio even though it's actually MORE important than the video. People will forgive grainy video if they can clearly hear everything that's going on. But put a crummy audio track on stellar video and people will be very annoyed. HDV audio (basically a 320kbps mp3) is one of the main reasons I am going for the EX1 with it's uncompressed audio. Of course it's got the best picture in it's class! But I could have lived with HDV if the audio was nice. Bottom line I just want to know there will be no shenanigans with the audio. For 6 grand they should have it right.

I too would very much like you to post suggested sound settings for the EX1 on this very thread. If you start a new thread, at least post a link to it here so we get a notification. I am all over many forums (audio, video, motion graphics, singer songwriter) and can easily miss your new post. I found this by searching "EX1 Audio".

I was also surprised to hear (in subsequent google searches) of a digital clicking sound on EX1 files, I think where 2 clips butt up together at the point the camera automatically makes a new file at a certain length. Is that an issue you (any of you) have found? Was it operator error? I just listened to MattDavis' sub bass file, and it sounds like he's clipping the input to me. I get that even on my Sound Devices MixPre with a rock band and a sensitive mic like the NT4. I fixed that with a pair of Audio-Technica AT8202 In-Line Attenuators set to -10db. For those who don't know, in-line attenuators plug into the xlr connection between the mic and cable, or the cable and mixer/camera. 43.00 at B&H. Every sound guy should have a couple. I wonder if those might attenuate better than the built in EX1 Attenuators?

Anyway Mark I could go on all day with questions about the EX1. If you have some extensive studies of all aspects of the cam I would love a link. I remember your bad experience with the AU1, and it's utter lack of bass response, and Sony's lack of communication about the actual specs. Did they ever give you a refund?

Take care fellas.

Chadfish

www.youtube.com/chadfish
 
Last edited:
IMHO, the audio is too good for the vast majority of videographers to really appreciated.

It can't be stressed enough, that the 1.11 firmware corrects the one major flaw that the EX1 suffered in earlier fw. The audio is now top-flight. Use the internal preamps with confidence.

Hi Mark.

Yes it's true. Many videographers know/care nothing about audio even though it's actually MORE important than the video. People will forgive grainy video if they can clearly hear everything that's going on. But put a crummy audio track on stellar video and people will be very annoyed. HDV audio (basically a 320kbps mp3) is one of the main reasons I am going for the EX1 with it's uncompressed audio. Of course it's got the best picture in it's class! But I could have lived with HDV if the audio was nice. Bottom line I just want to know there will be no shenanigans with the audio. For 6 grand they should have it right.

I too would very much like you to post suggested sound settings for the EX1 on this very thread. If you start a new thread, at least post a link to it here so we get a notification. I am all over many forums (audio, video, motion graphics, singer songwriter) and can easily miss your new post. I found this by searching "EX1 Audio".

I was also surprised to hear (in subsequent google searches) of a digital clicking sound on EX1 files, I think where 2 clips butt up together at the point the camera automatically makes a new file at a certain length. Is that an issue you (any of you) have found? Was it operator error? I just listened to MattDavis' sub bass file, and it sounds like he's clipping the input to me. I get that even on my Sound Devices MixPre with a rock band and a sensitive mic like the NT4. I fixed that with a pair of Audio-Technica AT8202 In-Line Attenuators set to -10db. For those who don't know in-line attenuators plug into the xlr connection between the mic and cable, or the cable and mixer/camera. 43.00 at B&H. Every sound guy should have a couple. I wonder if those might attenuate better than the built in EX1 Attenuators?

Anyway Mark I could go on all day with questions about the EX1. IIf you have some extensive studies of all aspects of the cam I would love a link. I remember your bad experience with the V1U, and it's utter lack of bass response, and Sony's lack of communication about the actual specs. Did they ever give you a refund?

Take care fellas.

Chadfish

www.youtube.com/chadfish
 
Great information.

Too bad the Ex-1 audio is not 24bit.

24bit cures a lot of problems by letting you track at a lower, safer level, is more forgiving and has much more depth.

Kind of surprised they did not make the audio 24bit as it is part of the HD spec.
 
Not much time.. I'll try to go in order of appearance of posts:

I still recommend a rec level of '5', as it's the point at which max input at the preamp will result in max digital level onto the file. Lower settings mean you can clip the preamp, but will never reach digital 0VU. Higher levels mean you bring up the noise floor. Best strategy is still to use the attenuator settings and try to anticipate sound levels. Lower negative numbers for louder situations, higher negative numbers for quieter situations.

It was the Sony V1U that irked me so, and a number of prominent video pros who disregarded my observations, tried to discredit me (they even kicked me off CC for asking twice in 5 months about the audio on the EX1), tried to claim my cameras were 'grey market' and so on. But RightMark doesn't give false data and my ears are keen to notice less than flat response in realworld sound pickup. Sure, the V1U audio is great, if you use it for skydiving only. :-) BTW, I sold one of the V1Us and the buyer was happy with it. Sony never admitted there was a problem and that became a dead issue. I was never happy with the HDV picture anyway.

I should point out that HDV audio is not that bad. My beef with it was the high pass filter on the camera that was non-defeatable. 320kbps MPEG audio can sound pretty clean, and is certainly preferable to linear track audio on S-VHS from the mid-80s Panny AG series with its limited AM radio-quality bandwidth and hiss.

I think, along with some very scientific audiophile experts like Peter Aczel and Ethan Winer, that 24-bit audio is overrated for many situations. If you set recording levels pretty well, there's not much of a problem working in 16-bits. Personally, for the best audiophile recordings, I use a separate multitrack phantom powered mic preamp/A/D converter to firewire and recording in 24-bit at 96KHz. Where I'm not 100% certain I agree with them on sample rate (I don't feel confident that 44.1KHz is really enough to convey all the spacial depth cues and intra-aural time delays accurately) the 48KHz of the camera audio IS a bit better than CD. The EX1 is ruler-flat to 20KHz, which is a good thing for this aspect of sound. I've gotten excellent audio from the EX1 without too much fuss. I believe Sony went with 16-bit as a bandwidth consideration, lest it would have required larger media or shorter recording time on SxS.

With excessive levels, you're going to get clipping with ANY system, if the levels are set too aggressively. The problem here is the classic school of recording. Sound operators were trained for decades in an analog world. You were truly a great sound engineer if you could manage to have your levels high enough to keep out of the noise, yet low enough to avoid audible clipping. That carried over into the digital world. Sound people still like to record hot, but in the case of digital, it's a brick wall and it sounds nasty when you hit it. Analog just gradually gets grungier and intermod distortion increases with rec levels. With digital, it's that nasty click you get with clipping. But today's preamps are pretty quiet and digital itself produces no audible noise, so there's no reason not to set levels much lower and normalize them in post. But we face some challenges:

Many editors work with PC speakers or small speakers with low gain/power and report having difficulty hearing audio that's recorded that low.

High dynamic range recordings present problems for casual listeners on low-fi audio playback systems. Again, not enough gain to hear the softer sounds, and not enough power to reproduce the louder sounds without distortion.

We're in a world now where the 'loudness wars' that started in FM broadcast on the west coast in the late 1980s have migrated to CD mastering in the 2000s to the point where we have CD albums that actually contain clipped audio. The "art" of "mastering" is the finishing touch put on CDs to make them sound louder, through various forms of psychoacoustic trickery in the form of overpriced 2RU boxes with fancy names and vacuum tubes inside.

That aside, the reality is that we are taught to record with too hot a level. In life, there is one reference level: the loudest sound we can anticipate and still live to talk about it. That might be a gunshot at close range, a train horn, or a 50HP siren. About 150-160dB. More realistically, if we anticipate these sounds at a distance, or the loudest amplified rock, we might be talking 120-130dB at the extreme upper end. So if we set our recording levels so that clipping occurs when SPL reaches 120dB, all else will fall into place. Setting a low input sensitivity also pushes the noise floor from mics and preamps way down, so that's to your benefit. When normalizing in post, it's just the granularity of the bit depth used in the recording that presents any challenge at all. But most folks would feel uncomfortable recording with an average level of -45dB and they wouldn't hear anything in the cans with a low gain headphone amp like those in cameras while recording. So it's a matter of familiarity and operator comfort that causes many of us to choose high recording levels.

High input sensitivity is the culprit when you have clipping due to wind striking the microphone element. That is a HUGE signal, because the diaphragm of the mic is being violently pushed in and out by blasts of air. It is easy to discount that when one is used to working with cameras whose input circuits start to roll off below 1KHz. Those cameras appear to handle wind noise very well--naturally because there is almost zero gain left at 2-10Hz where much of the energy produced by the fiberlating mic diaphragm is located!

Even with fw 1.11, it appears that the optimal gain staging is to set REC at 5 and use the attenuators as before. Only now, you can let signals peak higher than mid-scale on the meters without having that nasty limiter artifact.

Many people make the assumption that if the mic is rated for -37dB then that's where the attenuator value in the EX1 should be set. But it doesn't work that way. -37 is just a reference level to produce a certain output with a certain SPL at 1KHz. The reality is that you have to consider the loudest sounds to be expected and set atten high enough to keep the maximum voltage levels just below clipping of the mic pre.

Some ballpark figures with the Rode NT4 as mic in use:

Soft nature sounds ......... -38
Acoustic music ................. -26
Rock band ....................... -14
Fireworks ........................ -8

If you're out on the ocean shore with stock wind foam, use no higher than -20 for the atten if you wish to avoid LF clipping. If you have a dead cat or zeppelin, you can go higher on the gain.

Remember, it is better to under-record and normalize it in post, than to clip and have no way to recover the lost information later.

Here's a rock concert I recorded with studio condensers into the pre 1.11 fw EX1 last fall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJzws4EQA-o
[Click HD button to get the higher quality sound playback]

Here is an acoustic recording I made while just passing through a downtown event:
http://exposureroom.com/members/Basspig.aspx/assets/a46cbddd7fc045bbb88943f96e2c29df/

The camera can make excellent recordings, even with a midrange mic like the NT4 that I used in this second recording, making it a real ideal run & gun package.

Bottom line is to understand the equipment and work within the limitations.
 
The camera can make excellent recordings, even with a midrange mic like the NT4 that I used in this second recording, making it a real ideal run & gun package.

I thought the Sonny Carroll Orchestra recording sounded great. I have yet to take my NT4 outside. What type of wind protection to you use? Do you have the Rode fuzzy made for the NT4?

Also I want to mention that I find the Rode NT3 an awesome hypercardioid for the money. I use it almost exclusively for indoor dialogue.


Thanks for the info! I'll be referring back when I get my EX1.

Chadfish
 
If I were you and you can handle the extra bulk, I'd go with the Sound Devices mic pre and feed a line-level signal into the EX1. The SD gear has SUCH good mic pre's compared to the Sony. However, if mobility is paramount, then go with Mark's advice and pay careful attention the the levels. If I have any long-form recordings to shoot, I'll feed the signals first through my SD722 and then take line-level out of the '722 into the EX1.


Hey Dave

Some questions:

Have you run into this limiter pumping in the EX1 with this set up? Also, since you can't defeat the limiter in the EX1, do you use the Sound Devices limiters? What camera settings do you use when using your line level mixer?

I'm just curious what kind of difference I'll be getting with the signal flow in this setup. It seems the camera has a lot of touchy audio adjustments in order to avoid pumping etc, and I want things simple and safe (as far as clipping/distortion goes. When I am "one manning" it, I need to be fully into where I am aiming the camera without riding levels in audio etc. With a play or concert I only have one shot to get it right.

Thanks for your input.

Chadfish
 
Hey Dave

Some questions:

Have you run into this limiter pumping in the EX1 with this set up?

I hear it in my headphones and it makes me crazy. I wish I could figure out how to avoid it. I might have to take Basspig's advice and record at a much lower level. I guess I still have an "analog brain".


Also, since you can't defeat the limiter in the EX1, do you use the Sound Devices limiters? What camera settings do you use when using your line level mixer?

I haven't had a "locked down" shoot in a while where audio was critical so I have not tested it yet. However, 'pigs tests of the EX1 might make a believer out of me yet as to the quality of the EX1.[/QUOTE]

I'm just curious what kind of difference I'll be getting with the signal flow in this setup. It seems the camera has a lot of touchy audio adjustments in order to avoid pumping etc, and I want things simple and safe (as far as clipping/distortion goes. When I am "one manning" it, I need to be fully into where I am aiming the camera without riding levels in audio etc. With a play or concert I only have one shot to get it right.

Thanks for your input.

Chadfish

Once I've done some good tests, I'll post the results.

dave
 
I thought the Sonny Carroll Orchestra recording sounded great. I have yet to take my NT4 outside. What type of wind protection to you use? Do you have the Rode fuzzy made for the NT4?

Also I want to mention that I find the Rode NT3 an awesome hypercardioid for the money. I use it almost exclusively for indoor dialogue.


Thanks for the info! I'll be referring back when I get my EX1.

Chadfish


So far, just the stock foam windscreen. It's not terribly effective for anything more than just the most gentle air movement. I'm contemplating that fuzzy or a zeppelin, but bulk is a problem for a lot of my run and gun shooting. Wind is very much a problem on outdoor shoots. I was shooting by the lake Saturday evening and there was a strong wind blowing at the shoreline. Playback sounded like continuous thunder. Some type of 'human ear' design for handling wind might be interesting.
Incidentally, I was considering the NT3 for use up in my flown mic cluster as an alternate center channel with emphasis on the soloist on-stage. Cellists, in particular, want their instrument's sound to be big and out in front, unlike the way it really comes across to the audience. Since we're prohibited from using floor mics due to visual distractions, a hypercardioid in the flown cluster makes a useful alternative which also preserves the interaural time arrivals and is in alignment with the rest of the mics, which makes editing a much simpler task.
 
Good job basspig what settings to recommend RODE NTG-2? Thanks

I compared the sensitivity rating of the NTG-2 to the NT-4 and they are within 1dB of eachother, so given the 6dB step of the Sony 1.11 firmware audio attenuation, I'd say the same settings will likely work well for both mics.
 
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