F55: The red guys are really losing the market.

starcentral said:
Personally I think RED demolishes itself looking to constantly be the latest and greatest at something, they should look at expanding their line of cameras into other markets outside of "cinema" over developing a 20 stop sensor which to me is a complete waste of time.
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20 stops is hardly a waste of time. Yes, there are other things that I would upgrade before this but 20 stops is not a waste of time! 20 stops hellooo!:)
 
I appreciate the new Dragon sensor, it's an amazing breakthrough, I just hope it can produce this much latitude without the noise issues their other cameras have.
 
KINOKS said:
20 stops is hardly a waste of time. Yes, there are other things that I would upgrade before this but 20 stops is not a waste of time! 20 stops hellooo!:)
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What do you plan to use 20 stops for? Please explain.

And let's hope RED upgrades their 12-bit codec while they're at it, surely it will not hold 20 stops of dynamic range. Dragon "sensor upgrade" will be new chassis, new memory module, new media, new media station, require more watt-hours,, . . ...

It is like I said, a waste of time. (IMO of course)
 
starcentral said:
Dragon "sensor upgrade" will be new chassis, new memory module, new media, new media station, require more watt-hours,, . . ...
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Umm, pretty sure DRAGON isn't going to require new media or the station to read it in, a new chassis, and I have no idea what you mean by a new memory module (the side SSD?) Why would red upend their whole media infrastructure?

And RED has stated the new sensor will run cooler and draw less power. If you're going to be inflammatory at least be correct.
 
starcentral said:
Dragon "sensor upgrade" will be new chassis, new memory module, new media, new media station, require more watt-hours,, . . ...
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Easy there Dennis. Unless you know something I don't, Dragon will not require anything that is on your list. In fact it will run cooler with less power because the compression is much easier due to less noise. And finally, it's not 20 stops of latitude. Closer to 16.
 
starcentral said:
What do you plan to use 20 stops for? Please explain.
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I am by no means a RED cheerleader but 20 stops would be useful shooting in a tropical jungle, which some of us do from time to time.

But at this point if I was in shopping for something in the Epic price/feature range and (important qualifier) I didn't need to rent it out, I would probably go F55.

I think it would only take a couple good feature performances for the new Sonys to seriously undermine a lot of the Alexa and RED market share, on paper at least the F55 offers a lot for the money, whether the right people respond to its look remains to be seen (sorry).
 
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Is Dragon no longer delivering 20 stops? I'm only going by what RED themselves had announced, has this since changed?

My thought is that if RED is indeed thinking of 20 stops since REDCode is linear gamma they will need way more than a 12-bit codec to deliver it. If RED used non-linear gamma (which is doesn't) then it would be a different story.

Agree / disagree?


LyleGorch said:
I am by no means a RED cheerleader but 20 stops would be useful shooting in a tropical jungle, which some of us do from time to time.
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That's a good point, I was honestly asking..
 
starcentral said:
What do you plan to use 20 stops for? Please explain.

And let's hope RED upgrades their 12-bit codec while they're at it, surely it will not hold 20 stops of dynamic range. Dragon "sensor upgrade" will be new chassis, new memory module, new media, new media station, require more watt-hours,, . . ...

It is like I said, a waste of time. (IMO of course)
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Redcode for all intents and purposes is 16bit from what we have been told.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...eems-to-know&p=1067326&viewfull=1#post1067326

They are increasing the resolution, not many people want.. fair, they increase their DR, everyone wanted... now it's too much?(who knows the actuall number of stops best to wait until it's out) they are improving the colour science, reducing power consumption, noise, codec efficiency probably more.

Now this is all what we are being told not a reality until tested and shown but based on that how could you complain? they are working on just about every shortcoming people complained about.

On the post side, fast computer for lower end, multiple rockets/turbo rockets(not out yet) for the higher end is a fine solution for now. We will also see the meizler module with many features, followed by a mini proxy module within the next few months or so.

honestly if you can't see the progress they have made and are making, I very much worry about your capacity for rational non biased thought.

Seems some people are still stuck on islands believing the war is still on, you can come out we are all friends(or should be), it's not about what camera you have it's about what content you can and do produce and how you can help others to achieve their goals and what tool would suit them best, and tips on how to avoid each tools limitations.

Stay passionate, polite and rational... Have a good one!
 
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It is 100% not 16-bit. The ADC off the sensor is, but REDCODE raw is 12-bit and you can easily do the math yourself to prove it. I have links to RED where they don't want to answer it outright, but say "its like 16-bit" but deep down it is not 16-bit despite what anyone has told you. The data rates would be larger than they are today.
 
did you read the thread I linked.... oops sorry bad link fixed now.

Like I said in another post you may not want to trust Red but I trust Greame, I'll admit at times his post confuse me but I'm fairly certain he is stating that Redcode is 16 bit when it's needed. Honestly I'll leave it to his explanations but them correcting people on the assumption of 12bit not being correct makes me think your blanket statement that redcode is 12bit is incorrect. I could be wrong but I'm not so sure I am.
 
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Also next time you quote me, maybe quote me in entirety so anyone can see how I plainly defend RED in that they have not lost any market share, but only think their efforts would be better suited on expanding their line. Not a lot of people need 20 stops.
 
oops sorry it was RED One that was apparently 12-bit... my mistake my mistake...

Ok so is 16-bit enough for linear gamma on 20 stops?
 
I'm sorry not trying to miss quote I was replying to one post I hit the full quote button on the bottom and did nothing else....
 
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I have no idea if 20 stops will fit but I recall people discussing it believing it was enough, though it still remains to be seen if it can achieve a full 20 useable stops... most are thinking around 16-18 but once again these are all just assumptions.

to be honest I don't care what people "tell me" I shoot and see the results for myself and I'm very pleased. But when I see people say a company is blatantly lying on a fact sheet about a camera and has little proof to back it up I'm going to call you out on it. I'm sorry but I'm going to believe the people who built the camera over you, move on with my day and keep shooting. As I would expect you or anyone else to do to me if I were talking about a camera you knew more about than me, as Barry has done to me in the past on occasion.

now lets get back on topic of red losing market share... wait what?

Take er easy man they are just tools congrats on your new camera looks like a lot of fun, heck maybe we could meet up one day for a beer and some tests and you will see I'm rather laid back about all this and you shouldn't read to much into my posts.

Have a good day!
 
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no worries - still friends.


This is what I was referring to earlier:

RED 4k raw data rate with 3:1 compression = 793Mbps 3:1 (@24fps)
Theoretical rate for 4k 16-bit no compression = 3072Mbps (@24fps)
Theoretical rate for 4k 12-bit no compression = 2304Mbps (@24fps)

Is this correct or not?
 
My issue is going by numbers like that doesn't always correlate if you don't know what is going on behind the scenes, so you could vastly misinterpret the conclusions.

So if we had much more information on how they compressed data, and where they saved space with graeme's tricks then we could accurately compare numbers and get an idea for it. But considering I only dip my toe in these technical waters that is when I deffer to the manufacturers and my own eye and if the middle ground of those two is something I can live with then I'm happy.
 
starcentral said:
no worries - still friends.


This is what I was referring to earlier:

RED 4k raw data rate with 3:1 compression = 793Mbps 3:1 (@24fps)
Theoretical rate for 4k 16-bit no compression = 3072Mbps (@24fps)
Theoretical rate for 4k 12-bit no compression = 2304Mbps (@24fps)

Is this correct or not?
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I get slightly different numbers, but they also suggest 12 bit:

4096 x 2160 x 16 x 24 = 3,397Mb/s / 3 = 1,106 Mb/s
4096 x 2160 x 12 x 24 = 2,488Mb/s / 3 = 829 Mb/s

From the numbers, I would guess that they are doing 16 bit linear to 12 bit log and then compressing 3:1

Cheers.
 
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